Christians and Muslims and Hindus teach their children what is important about being one of them
— Athena

and a lot more besides. People do try to teach their American children all of those things, and they more or less fail. — Vera Mont

Why do they fail? Who is the child following if not the parents?

It is not culture unless it is what a society holds as valuable and this is why I keep hammering away at the importance of education transmitting a culture. Here is a definition of culture... the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. Cultures around the world vary and they are learned.

Show me one! Mathematical realities are average income, average intelligence, average height, average vocal range, average running speed. What number is "average personhood"? — Vera Mont

Awe technology! We live in an information reality different from anything in the past. Thanks to computers and the internet we can gather and store huge volumes of information. We can pick any factor of being human and use information in the Cloud to know where the average person falls in a spectrum of differences.

We can learn about average people with surveys. We can know how many people in our area identify with being Christian and assume some things about them. Then we need to do social research, a test of some kind to know if the assumption is true. Can you think of something that would define an average that we can not figure out an average for? Keeping in mind an average does not negate differences.

That's a lot like saying Captain Picard is a fictional reality. Have you seen any mathematical realities running around the playgrounds or climbing scaffolds? — Vera Mont

Absolutely yes. That play yard is constructed with knowledge of averages. The school policies and class planning is built on knowledge of averages. But this does not mean a fourth grader from Peru is not struggling with the language used in his new US school. The boy from Peru may not score high on the IQ test because of language and cultural barriers.

I said nothing about priorities or 'should's'. I agreed that what was lacking was lacking and will continue to be lacking, because nobody has a good enough understanding of culture to fix indelibly into a whole federally mandated curriculum. Especially as culture keeps changing.

Every generation prepares its young for the world they themselves inhabit - not the world in which in the children will live when they grow up. Every generation, every faction, every denomination and nationality tries to impart its own beliefs, mores and values to its children - and the children invariably disappoint their parents: they change. The best that can be done is to let 'em at knowledge and let 'em go.

Greek and Roman cultures are interesting to study. So are plankton and whales. So are solar flares and meteor showers. So are poetry and music, math and pottery.
30 minutes ago — Vera Mont

Can we imagine we are native Iroquois and talk about what is important about being one of them? Do we want our children to know what is important about being Iroquois?

How about being Jew? What is important about being a Jew? Do Jews and Christians and Muslims and Hindus teach their children what is important about being one of them?

Now what about being an American and what it means to be a good citizen in the US? Does this mean following Trump and attempting to take over the Capital Building with force and threatening people like election workers and members of congress? Our Capital Building was open to tourist and we could visit it whenever we wanted. Trump supporters ruined our liberty to do so. Some of these changes came with 9/11. Some of us believe our democracy is going in the wrong direction. Do we want to continue ignoring our lack of culture that did give us a lot of liberty?

Two things about that: NONA and There is no such animals as an average person — Vera Mont

Average people are mathematical reality. That does not negate the reality of variety.

You're right of course - education would need to be overhauled in order to meet the challenges & capitalize on the opportunities of emerging realities, among which is (some say) rapid technological advancement. How do you suppose we should do this? — Agent Smith

I am confused about who is arguing what. Education was overhauled by the 1958 National Defense Education Act that ended education for citizenship and the transmission of a culture based on Greek and Roman classics and put in its place education for a technological society with unknown values and left moral training to the church. It was the beginning of a federal takeover of education and judging children with IQ tests and gradually the federal government increased its control of education. Everyone here might remember the No Child Left Behind Act put through by Bush Jr. and hated by teachers. The joke of that Act is that it required schools to give military recruiters children's names and addresses. A play on the meaning of no child left behind.

What was lacking is a good understanding of what culture has to do with high human potential, liberty, and justice, and what education has to do with culture.
— Athena

Always! You won't change that. — Vera Mont

What? You believe the priority of education should be transmitting a culture based on what was best of the Greeks and Romans? Then we do not have a disagreement.

In the past, we associated virtues with strength, and our honor or reputation was very important along with our dignity.
— Athena

I don't know which past or which "we" that refers to, but it doesn't leave much trace in the history books. Maybe it's just in the elementary school readers and the inscription of statues. Symbolic. — Vera Mont

That would have been the educated people who learned the culture promoted by educated people.

The central doctrines of the Enlightenment were individual liberty and religious tolerance, in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Church. The principles of sociability and utility also played an important role in circulating knowledge useful to the improvement of society at large.

Age of Enlightenment - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Age_of_Enlightenment — Wikipedia

What's the point of a democracy where the properly educated citizens are powerless against an elected government's decision to change their good education system for a bad one? — Vera Mont

My grandmother wasted no time but opened opportunities to thousands of young people and successfully defended the US democracy in the classroom. The success of teachers includes winning two world wars and also preparing our young to advance our nation in every way, and those who continued their education and got college degrees were almost guaranteed upward economic opportunity. Nothing has done more for individuals and our nation than education.

Who knew the change would lead to serious problems? In 1917 and again in1958 there was a lot of fear and immediate action seemed necessary. At the same time, we were flying high on our successes in technology and medical advancements and had what some may say was an unrealistic faith in technology. And a very big determiner of events was, and is, the influence of Christianity.

From the beginning of the US, secular people were pitted against the religious people. The majority believe humans are born in sin and bound to do wrong unless they are saved by a spiritual force. Only a small handful of people were literate in the classics and understood what education, other than reading the Bible, has to do with democracy and lifting the human potential. Only the Age of Enlightenment, secular people, believed science and democracy would manifest a New Age, a time of high tech, peace, and the end of tranny. While religious people wait for a God and the last days. Everyone's intentions were good. What was lacking is a good understanding of what culture has to do with high human potential, liberty, and justice, and what education has to do with culture.

Let me make this clear, religious people expect a God to take care of us, and they are not enlightened. Science tells us masks, distancing, washing our hands, and vaccinations are essential to stopping the spread of disease, and ministers were telling their flocks to ignore science and they stirred paranoid fear of our government being evil, setting the stage for a violent attempt to take control of the National Capitol Building and overturn the election. This is what is wrong with education for technology and leaving moral training to the church and you can bet Christians and their ministers do not see themselves as part of the problem. They oppose public education for good moral judgment and do not understand their fight to be the authority of what is moral, and for what they believe, is part of the problem.

Our relationship with Christianity is kind of like our relationship with slavery. We have kept both for the benefits while denying the problems.

↪Athena Education is important and by education I mean a wholesome one. Statistics should aid you and Vera Mont decide who's right even if only partially. Who is a better human being? The average American, the average Chinese, the average Indian, ...? Why? Education!

:coffee: — Agent Smith

Wow who is the better person and why? I am afraid I can not give a good answer. You caused me to doubt my firm position on education because you made me aware it is very culturally biased. If we live with each other, education for democracy is essential but that is not so everywhere. There are areas of the earth that provide adequate diets and resources for small groups of people who are very happy people. They live in Eden and maybe we should not destroy that. I am hesitant to say our more technologically dependent society is better. But for a large society, we may be doing better than in China and for sure we are doing better than Aghanistan or Hatti.

Why? Climate is one reason, the environment is another, and knowledge of science is important. The size of the population is very important. We become impersonal and instinctively more dependent on discrimination and formal laws when we live in large populations.

Culture is another serious matter. Culture is taught and used for social control. Now I think we get into climate and environmental factors. People are more liberal and less fearful in mild climates and their culture would build on the climate and environment they experience. Life in Siberia is going to be different than on a tropical island. I would not be so pompous to run around the world and say everyone should have the education that the US needs.

So, where did all of those properly educated citizens - which should be ever American who went to school - go? What happened in 1958 to disappear any effect they might have had? Why didn't they stop the steal? — Vera Mont

Why didn't they stop the steal? Number one all those people knew no more about education than you do. Nor do Americans know any more about philosophy and the Age of Enlightenment and what both have to do with democracy and education than you do. OR if they did know about education for democracy and good citizenship as my grandmother did, they were powerless because unlike you all the people who do not know what it is so important to know, they just don't care and they don't argue or ask questions, they just ignore the subject. Do you see many people engaging in the argument?

I don't know which past or which "we" that refers to, but it doesn't leave much trace in the history books. Maybe it's just in the elementary school readers and the inscription of statues. Symbolic. — Vera Mont

My grandmother walked away from the schools that made the change because the school interfered with classroom discipline. She went on to a private school that did not interfere with her classroom. And then she became a Vista Volunteer and worked with immigrant children and taught their mothers how to play the piano in the evening. When she could no longer reenlist in Vista she went home and volunteered at another school. And our local newspaper was staffed with people of her generation and they were as well-mannered and virtuous as she was I am sorry younger people can never experience the reality we had because now all these older people are dead and every generation we get further from them, the worse things get. If you knew those old people, we would not be arguing.


Have you seen Eisenhower's explanation of the change? Can you try this? Think about this thread and the question about technology when you watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY

That warning goes with Billy Graham working with Eisenhower to create fear of those godless people of the USSR, and bonded our pledge of allegiance with the Christian God. And it goes with schoolchildren being drilled to duck under their desks and cover their heads with their hands, and selling those who could afford them, private bomb shelters. Following WWII was a period of paranoia made all the worse by a behind the scene grab of our country, and industry increasing their contracts with government during a time of peace. Before this, the Roosevelt administration, with the help of Hoover designed the bureaucratic structure that is essential to increasing the power of government bureaucratically. Eisenhower added to it, a new relationship between government and research for military purposes and a new relationship with media.

If you find what I said unbelievable, please ask questions that require more information or validation. I am well impressed by your tenacity in continuing your arguments and asking questions. I wish our arguing would catch the attention of others who may remember the people who are now dead. It is a challenge to find a find a written record of their existence but I can think of one more video that may help you see for yourself we have a different past. And I kind of like the challenge you have given me. :grin:

https://www.google.com/search?q=video+of+walter+cronkite&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=Video+Walter+Cronki&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30l2.11208j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1d287e8c,vid:G5tdqojA26E

You keep talking about this wonderful education you used to have. I find no historical trace of it, and no resemblance to the Athens that also didn't live up to your ideal representation. And I still can't see any relevance of either to the thread topic. — Vera Mont

Come to my home and I will show gladly show you the evidence. Or you can start your own search for the American values every child was taught. That is how I came to the information I have. I wanted to prove a commentator wrong when he said teachers should not have to waste their time on poor students. Back in my grandmother's day, teachers thought it was their purpose to teach good citizenship and prepare the young for adulthood, and also to help each child discover his/her own talents and interest. Let me be very clear about this, the education was for the individual child's benefit and the dream is those so benefited will be enabled to give the country their very best. Democracy through education lifts the human potential.

My grandmother felt so strongly about her purpose in life that she continue teaching long after she was forced to retire because of her age. She did this with love for our democracy which liberates the individual and aims at justice for all. Athena is represented as the Statue of Liberty, The Lady of Justice, and the Spirit of America as she is portrayed in the mural of gods at the Capital Building. All of them have the Sword of Justice. Liberty holds a book representing knowledge that sets us free. The Lady of Justice holds a scale as justice is a balance. As the Spirit of America, she brandishes a sword that defends liberty and justice and she stands for morale, that good feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing. In the past, we associated virtues with strength, and our honor or reputation was very important along with our dignity.

Think thread begins with a moral question of right and wrong. Giving up the education that made us great to focus on education for technology was a huge mistake. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and we are not doing that. Our present amoral society does not reflect the values that made us great. That same thing happened to Athens, leading to Socrates finding fault with democracy.

It isn't, you know, any more important than all the literature that's been written in the last 2000 years. You seem to make a direct link between the golden age of Athens (less than 20 years, and even in that short time, some questionable situations arose) and some kind of golden moment, or maybe distilled essence
of America. There is no such link: everything in between happened. All the awful and hopeful, shameful and triumphant stuff happened. The moving erases nothing, forgets nothing. — Vera Mont

Yes, it is more important than the large volumes of books printed since 2000 if the subject is democracy. Some good books about democracy have been written in modern times, but how popular are they? Which of them have you read?

You keep talking about this wonderful education you used to have. I find no historical trace of it, and no resemblance to the Athens that also didn't live up to your ideal representation. And I still can't see any relevance of either to the thread topic. — Vera Mont

Yes I am linking ancient Athens with the democracy of the US, before 1958.

Why do you keep arguing about something you know nothing about? What do you think separates the East from the West? Athens was the Mother of western culture and the Father of science and the parent of democracy. Athena taught men how to govern themselves. You know them not.

"You" must have been very wise to realize that all non-English speakers are too stupid to understand about democracy before they decide to make the huge sacrifice of leaving their kith, kin, worldly goods and homeland and take a chance on the new World. — Vera Mont

What I am saying is it requires education to understand and defend democracy. The issue is not a person's native tongue, but in the past immigrants did not have experience with democracy and they did not understand our institutions. Today that is true of most Americans thanks to education for technology replacing the education for citizens that we had. I also think Socrates is miss represented when people say he hated democracy. He hated ignorance, not democracy, and so do I.

No, he couldn't have cared less about us. He was concerned with the adolescents of his own time and place. His idea of virtue was probably a little different from the average American's, which is a little different from above and below average Americans'. — Vera Mont

If you think you know enough about Socrates to tell me about him, let us start a thread for that purpose.

Socrates > Quotes
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.” ...
“The unexamined life is not worth living.” ...
“I cannot teach anybody anything. ...
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” ...
“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” ...
“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.”
More items...

Socrates Quotes (Author of Apología de Sócrates) - Goodreads
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/275648.Socrates

How do you teach the rules of logic to a three-year-old? By the time formal educators can teach him anything, he's already absorbed his society's values. They're not about logic; they're about what's cheered and what's booed. — Vera Mont

Yes, as I have been saying that is the problem with education for technology. The children are educated but left ignorant of what everyone good citizen should know. Seriously we did not depend on immigrant parents to prepare their children for democracy. We knew the parents would learn from their children.

That's what I keep telling you. It didn't. "People" as a concept may have been "valued" as a concept in the official documents, but on the ground, in the battlefields and cotton fields, mines, railroads and factories, the vast majority of people certainly never had been valued as anything but commodities. The "labor market" is not, and never has been, far removed from the stock market or the cattle market.
The purpose of education was always to turn out whatever kind of work-force the economy required. The requirements of the economy changed after the US dropped Fat Man and Little Boy, yes. It had to be directed more toward technology, more toward space race and world dominance, sure.
And education had to adjust. Again. Just as it had had to adjust in the early 20th century, when automation made a lot of illiterate unskilled labour unnecessary, and demanded more skilled and clerical workers. Just as it had in the west, when tractors and harvesters rendered many farm labourers redundant, and young people going to seek work in the city needed new skills. As it changed in the south, when white farmers became sharecroppers and needed all their kids to lend a hand, just so they could scrape out a living, but the landowners, bankers and war profiteers sent their kids to private schools in Europe. Education follows the economy. — Vera Mont

The definition of democracy is copied from the series of grade school textbooks call "Democracy in America".

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental morel and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.

Here are the characteristics that define the ideals and procedures of democracy. You can argue against them, but the point is this is an example of what was taught and I am proving what was taught.

1 Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.
2 Open opportunity for the individual.
3 Economic and social security.
4 The search for truth. (this is science)
5 Free discussion; freedom of speech, freedom of the press.
6 Universal education.
7 The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority, the honest ballot.
8 Justice for the common man, trial by jury, arbitration of disputes, orderly legal processes, freedom from search and seizure, right to petition.
9 Freedom of religion.
10 Respect for the rights of private property.
11 The practice of the fundamental social values.
12 The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

The original purpose of free public education in the US was to Americanize the flood of immigrates and prepare everyone for democracy as this was understood in Athens. We really need literacy in Greek and Roman classics to understand what democracy is about but even teachers today are illiterate of the necessary literature. That technological adjustment made in education is devastating for our democracy which is no longer understood and this very much is about good moral judgment because people with the power of voting or even becoming a member of our government devastate democracy and liberty and right now we are in fight to defend our democracy with zero understanding this needs to begin with education. This is a crisis and Trump made us aware of it as he and his followers actually thought they use violence to take control of our government.

We did not have vocational training until 1917 when we mobilized for the first world war against an enemy that had far better military technology than the US. No one knew what the new vocational training would do to our lives and economy but for the first time, the new technology and vocational training made dirt poor people interested in having their children educated instead of keeping them home to help with the farm. This education was the best thing that could have happened to our nation.
If you want to argue this, fine, just do so instead of thinking you can avoid an argument by saying this history does not matter because it is old information.

While vocational education was added to education, preparing our young to be good citizens remained the priority until 1958, because before the military technology of the second world war, our defense depended mostly on patriotism. Citizens had to make big sacrifices to fight those wars. Not like today when we can engage in war without disturbing our morning routine and carrying on our lives as though there was no war.

Probably not what you think it is. I believe good and bad moral judgment are not products of formal schooling, but the example children are shown, and the values they absorbs from their family, peers and culture. You can teach them that honesty is best policy all you want, but if their life experience shows that cheaters do prosper and the honest man is considered a sucker, most of them will cheat. — Vera Mont

Before one can have good moral judgment, one must learn the rules of logic. That requires education for learning logic and this begins with learning math and how to diagram a sentence. Scientific thinking improves logic.

Socrates was concerned with broadening our conscience, our knowledge, especially knowledge of virtues is important and the virtues must be learned before we can be aware of them. This is why classical literature is important. However, science is also very important to our conscience.

Also if education had not changed in 1938, 1910, 1895, 1803, 1662, 1412, 976 and 535 BCE. Also, if there had not been two world wars, a Bolshevik revolution, a US civil war, the Seven Years' war, the war of the roses, the French Revolution, the Crusades and the Peloponnesian War... That's right; everything past produces the present. Not one event; all events. — Vera Mont

Is that information also debunked and refutable or do you think history and cause and effect have something to do with our reality today? In the history forum there is a part set aside to discuss alternative histories based on changing the events of history.

This thread is about the advancement of technology and employment changes, and hopefully social changes. Education for a technological society with unknown values is important to our present reality.

All children getting college prep educations instead of more art and music and literature and vocational training, impacts our reality. In the past people with 8th grade educations had no problem getting jobs and some of them even began their own businesses. Today children are marginalized at a very young age and excessive population has pushed the cost of living beyond many people's means. We are scrambling to deal with these problems and don't have grandparents on farms where the young can find refuge from the poverty of cities. Now, this is getting more on-topic. How can those who are not college educated have desirable lives?

Keeping debunked and refuted data past their expiration date is also a problem. — Vera Mont

What is refutable about Russia having nuclear powers and proving it can deliver? Sputnik proved the USSR had the ability to deliver a nuclear bomb. That is what justified the change in education, and IQ testing so teachers could select out those best suited for hirer education. That was not only a drastic change in the purpose of education but also a change in how we value people. What makes that history debunked and refutable?

No, however many times to repeat the claim, you Obviousl. You went from a hodge-podge of state, municipal, private, religious and trades education to something more nearly coherent. Education was always aimed at producing whatever kind of work-force the economy required. — Vera Mont

You are in a philosophy forum. What do you think education for good moral judgment is?

The survival game (in whatever cultural setting, tribal, Western-industrial, pastoralism, farming, whatever), IS the "comply" part. If the person born into the survival-game doesn't like that game, they have no choice but to starve to death, free ride, etc. or kill themselves. It DOESN'T MATTER what the contingent social game the person is born into, imposing ANY game (arrangement of survival) is what is wrong. UNLESSS the game was LITERALLY someone's individualized idea of what a utopia is (one where even being bored doesn't exist), then forcing this arrangement of comply (with the game, any game) or die is wrong to do to someone else. That is what one is doing when procreating another person into the world... forcing them to comply with the game (of survival of ANY variety tribal, industrial, Robinson Crusoe, or otherwise) or die. That again, is wrong. — schopenhauer1

I don't know. The US seems to have a lot of freedom and I would rather live with the benefits of a good economic system than without them.

Vera Mont
248
here you go again making a statement about something you know nothing about
— Athena

And your source of information for my absolute abysmal ignorance - besides my failure to agree with you is....?

The internet is the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act and this applies directly to the subject of this thread.
— Athena

Okay. So all you need to fix the problems created by automation since the 1960's is to hop in your time machine and reset the US education system to 1957. — Vera Mont

You do not have to agree with me, but throwing out information because it is old is a problem. In your defense, I had a professor who rejected all research that was not in the Abstracts and was more than 10 years old. Perhaps you have a college education that taught you to reject information more than 10 years old.

:rofl: For sure if education had not changed in 1958, we would not be where we are today. The logic for this is the same as saying if the couple did not have sex 9 months earlier they would not have a baby. Education is like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii. We changed the purpose, the wish in 1958.

We went from education for good moral judgment to leaving that to the church. We went from education for independent thinking to "group think". We went from using the Conceptual Method to using the Behaviorist Method which can also be used for training dogs.

The changes were made in part because those in power thought the change was an improvement, and in part to advance technology as rapidly as possible and prepare everyone for a technological society with unknown values. That is not all bad, but ignorance of what was done is a problem because our liberty and democracy are not being defended in the classroom and we are shifting to a police state, and worse, an uncontrolled information age where China's TikTok has raised serious national security concerns and we are not prepared to talk about our changing reality.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-china-united-states-national-security-government-and-politics-ac5c29cafaa1fc6bee990ed7e1fe5afc

Of course I get what you are saying, because that is what I am saying. Complying is not JUST one arrangement (the modern Western capitalist economic system). It can be any system related to survival (like a tribal or Robinson Crusoe economy). It doesn't matter what arrangement you are causing (imposing) on the new person born, you are still imposing an arrangement that cannot be gotten out of except through degradation or suicide. This is not right to do to someone. — schopenhauer1

:cheer: Oh goody, a real philosophical debate. Is the imposing structure evil? I think you have clarified the force that makes us as we are is external. Is that correct?

In a tribe where everyone knows everyone, there are no formal laws and law enforcers, but everything happens on a personal level, and that personal level includes our relationships, so if you hurt my child, that child's father will deal with you, and if care for me when I am sick, or save my child from drowning I will owe you. I don't think that is the structure you are talking about. I think you are talking about a formal structure with written laws and law enforcers. These are very different realities despite the effort to use the gods or the one god to make people conform to an informal, cultural structure and use education to transmit information about being a good person.

The Hebrews faced a social conflict when they shifted from herding and communally sharing the land to farming and owning private property. Now instead of sharing everything in common, there are some rich people and some poor people. Genghis Khan was 100% opposed to settling in one place and private ownership of land. He commanded his people to never settle down and begin accumulating things and never chose religion over another. Did Genghis Khan have a higher standard of morality?

The concepts of heaven/hell are based on an :down: overlord :down: . Some people like being lorded over and others do not. — praxis

Actually those concepts came up in Greek philosophy as did the understanding of democracy.

Hades, the underground realm, is a place we all must go to get a sense of meaning. But a person should never go there without the help of the gods because it is so likely a person will get lost in Hades. To be lost in Hades is to suffer depression and worse mental disorders such as becoming a psychopath.
A person can talk with the dead by bringing a sheep to the entrance of Hades, digging a hole, and then slitting the sheep's throat and letting the blood flow into the hole. Then a dead person can drink it and you can talk with this person because life is in the blood.

A perfectly rational explanation of reality don't you think? But then came men such as Hippocrates who argued it is not the gods that make people behave strangely but they do so because of biological reasons and thinking like that pulled the Greeks further and further away from silly superstitions, until the Christians and their book of God's truth and explanation of demons and good and evil. Thank goodness for Christianity's stand against superstition. :wink:

I don't see that. — T Clark

From the OP.

The other is the opposite. Hell. It is a hostile environment with limited resources and dangers abound everywhere. Every day is a struggle to survive.

Both domes are opaque and soundproof, nothing is known of the "beyond" outside. However the domes are not impenetrable and can be escaped given the right methods - through trial and error, a dedicated effort. — Benj96

Now imagine you are in hell and that is all you know. What do you see? What do you experience?

Actually, you can not do know a reality you have not experienced and you can not unknow what you know.

An important question might be what makes us as we are? Are we born as we are or do we become who learn to be?

The reality of a serfs life was pretty bad and yet for a long time they did not flee.

Feudalism, also known as the feudal system, was the combination of the legal, economic, military, cultural, and political customs that flourished in medieval Europe between the 9th and 15th centuries. Wikipedia

That is a long time in hell and you would accept it because you would fear burning in hell if you rebelled against the reality God gave you and if you could not feed your children you may walk them into the forest far enough, they hopefully would not find their way back home.

Not all of education is relevant to the current topic. Not even Eisenhower is relevant to the topic - too far outdated. — Vera Mont

There you go again making a statement about something you know nothing about. We can not go on like this. There is so much information you reject before learning anything about it, that it is futile to continue. Maybe in the morning I will read more carefully what you have said and possibly find something worth my time to think about.

The change in education is about military technology developed in WWII. The internet is the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act and this applies directly to the subject of this thread. If you don't want to know anything stop replying to what I say with explanations of why you will ignore it. :roll:

Meaning this arrangement (of working or death) should never be imposed onto someone else. — schopenhauer1

But working or death is imposed on all living things. You might get what I am saying if your survival depended totally on yourself.

Here we are in our own dome imagining, inventing, hoping for, fearful of something outside of the world we experience every day. Why wouldn't people in the hypothetical domes described in the OP do the same? — T Clark

Because their reality is not equal to ours. They do not experience life as we do so they can not have the consciousness we have.

You don't need a far-fetched thought experiment to get your answer. Just look at the world. People leave places where they are suffering from starvation, oppression and poverty to go to places they think will be better all the time. For examples see the US's southern border, the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, and the Mediterranean Sea between northern Africa and Europe. — T Clark

In the real world, those fleeing people believe there is a better reality and those in the Hell dome would believe their reality is the only one.

While those in the Heaven dome, would be curious. That is the human trait that pushes us beyond all borders and since all they know is goodness that is what they would expect.

it’s not even ethical to have children because it’s forcing them into complying (aka working) or kill themselves through slow degradation or suicide. You have to expand what is the scope of the human negative experience.

You’re a dbag if you think this an acceptable arrangement to cause for other people (imposition). So it’s not automation, it’s the very job itself that is unethical.
@Bret Bernhoft@Agent Smith@Joshs
a day ago — schopenhauer1

It looks like you got a lot of agreement but I am not sure Mother Nature would agree with you. All life has to work and compete for a living and especially humans need a challenge or they get bored. I know many people think heaven would be a great place, but I am not so sure of that. I think what we think about life is mostly a matter of attitude. What would be better than what we have?

I see where you're coming from. It's very simple, isn't it? After all, (our) liberty is at risk. What's needed is a good education for our children and we'll be ok. Democracy, by the way, is a wonderful system and I'm glad you're for it. — Agent Smith

Hey, are you interested in what philosophy had to do with democracy and education? Because of challenges to what I have said, I opened my books and got better information. and now I am eager to use it. For me, these forums are like going to college. We all have to find our own books, but then we come here and share what we have learned with our peers and develop our ideas. That is what makes democracy superior- all the individual growth that is made possible by communication using the past and present to become enlightened. :heart:

In the home is where early imprinting, domestication, internalization of social roles, and world-view formation take place. All in the first 3-5 years. By the time children enter school, their attitudes and self-image are established. — Vera Mont

True and not the whole truth. Children's peers and media can have a very strong effect on shaping the child. Consider the millions of dollars spent on advertising products to children and millions of dollars made from movies for children. Schools are social institutions filled with peers and they are essential to transmitting culture.

If you want to discuss education, I would love to share the information in my books but if I go to the work of quoting them, I do not want my effort ignored.

There is truth in the rest of your paragraphs but not enough information. You made it a choice to ignore information and that means not being aware of how much information you know nothing about.

Do you really see liberty, equality and justice "for all" in the actual practices of US legislatures, judiciaries and social organizations through the nation's history? If you want to delve into the philosophy on which the United States was founded, do so. But do it honestly. Democracy? — Vera Mont

I most definitely see women, people of color, and people who fit differently in the gender spectrum have a very different reality today than in the past and we wouldn't be here without the education to get here. And we wouldn't be here if military and industrial technology needs had not changed education. I know the federal government had very little to do with education before 1958 and that since WWII the federal government has had much more power to affect education. I know in the past few people stayed in school beyond the 8th grade. There is a lot to talk about but what is the point if one of us is going to ignore information?

If you want to delve into the philosophy on which the United States was founded, do so. But do it honestly. Democracy? — Vera Mont

I will overlook that you inferred I am not being honest, and react to the possibility that there is some sincerity in your invitation to discuss the philosophy that made democracy different from despotic nations and made our education about manifesting individual power and authority. Which is it? Do you want to ignore the information or are you sincerely interested? I don't think many people know what Athens and philosophy had to do with education in the US before the National Defense demand for education for philosophy became the priority. I think a new thread might be in order.

By the way, before the war to save the union, the North attempted to bring about peace by using education to end slavery, but the South caught on and began producing its own textbooks to transmit a culture supportive of slavery. Our nation has had culture wars from the beginning and education was used by opposing sides to manifest opposing cultures. But we could also point out Athens was not perfect and had slavery and sexism and economic disparity. Reality is all yin and yang opposites. Our materialism is an evil from the beginning of dividing the world into this or that, good or evil, true of false, black or white. Not seeing the interactions of life.

I could be wrong but it appears to me no one posting is literate in classical philosophy. That means the consciousness here is limited to a place, the US or a compatible country, and the poster's lifetime. That is a very limited perspective. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If we can one day create general AI, we would for sure need to reconsider what it is to be human - a can of worms but you already knew that. — Agent Smith

That statement does not go well with democracy, rule by reason. I have complete faith that human beings can be well educated and refined and a pleasure to be with. I have worked with congnitively challenged people who can not learn as well as those who attend college, but can be socialized to be a pleaure to be with. They just lack the ability to make reasonable arguments, so they are not intellectually stimulating.

I think the biggest human failure is lack of caring about education and what is possible, and not being well informed about what makes a person pleasant or unpleasant. I don't think AI will ever have human motivations and I am totally shocked by the people who are willing to give up our liberty to be ruled by AI.

In that case, I'm with Pink Floyd. — Vera Mont

I am sorry. I don't know enough about Pink Floyd to know what you mean.

Of course they are. How it works is: from 2-6 years old, you tell a kid that if he's a good little boy and eats all his beef, Santa will bring him nice, expensive presents - and he can hear what his lawyer daddy thinks of the Black janitor whose kid doesn't get such nice presents from Santa. Evidently, Santa, who is a fat old white man, only likes the children of successful people. After age 6, you tell him that success depends on good grades. Get into a good college (all except twelve being not-so-good colleges) and that success is a corner office and a six-figure salary. And all around him, he can see that it's true. Then you tell him that all those people in the parentheses want to take away his nice stuff. — Vera Mont

That is not what happened in my home and I don't think it is what happens in many homes. You are also speaking of people's private lives, not public education. It sure does not come up in the school books I have collected.

I didn't miss it. I ignored it. The 'philosophy' that a nation practices, and on which it bases its daily commercial transactions, political activities, law-enforcement, social organization, housing arrangements, employment practices, health-care delivery and child-raising is not the same philosophy it carves into the lintels of officious buildings and the plinths of statues. — Vera Mont

If you are intentionally ignoring all the philosophies behind our education and the foundation of democracy, there is no point in continuing this discussion because your reasoning is lacking too much information. When we intentionally ignore someone, isn't the ignore- ance?

I also like Pantagruel's answer. Gets right to the point and succinctly.

Speaking for myself, machines & humans can be symbiotically integrated (cyborgs) for, well, mutual benefit. It doesn't have to be a competitive, our relationship, it can be cooperative. — Agent Smith

Star Trek's Borg.

The Borg are an alien group that appear as recurring antagonists in the Star Trek fictional universe. The Borg are cybernetic organisms (cyborgs) linked in a hive mind called "the Collective". The Borg co-opt the technology and knowledge of other alien species to the Collective through the process of "assimilation": forcibly transforming individual beings into "drones" by injecting nanoprobes into their bodies and surgically augmenting them with cybernetic components. The Borg's ultimate goal is "achieving perfection".[1][2] — Wikipedia

Employers are now using their computers to monitor their employees. China uses cell phones to monitor their citizens. The technology is just as much bureaucratic technology as it is a mechanical technological advancement. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy that shifts power away from individuals to the collective, our governmental bureaucracy. At present China is more authoritarian but if we stay on our present technology path, the US may be as controlled as the Chinese.

Star Trek also repeated the theme of computer-controlled societies and plenty of people today will gladly give up our liberty for the more perfect computer control of us imperfect humans. Our present bureaucratic order is very close to a computer-controlled society like the Borg. Just because it is humans working on computers, it does not mean what we are creating is not a mechanical control of our society.

Has anyone read "PowerShift" by Alvin Toffler, Today's technology gives a whole new meaning to knowledge is power.

You choose to limit it to the city states, and exclude Alexander? — Vera Mont

Yes. Alexander was not representative of Athens and the city-states around Athens.

Throughout history, nothing has been more powerful than education.
— Athena

Except religion, nationalism, ambition, greed, paranoia and pride. The chiefest among these is greed, most especially greed for territory - more land! their land! and all the black and gold stuff stuff under it! It's all for us. — Vera Mont

I count religion as education and I see all beliefs in the gods as religion. It is what Athens defended when they killed Socrates and what Rome defended when it persecuted Christians and later what Christians defended when they destroyed the pagan temples. Mythology is essential to large unites of humans and it is transmitted from generation to generation. That is education.

I don't know if nationalism was part of education. That just doesn't sit right with me. I believe people had a sense of us and them, but I would not call that learned nationalism. How do you think nationalism was taught? Ambition, greed, and paranoia are taught? How does that work? That sure was not being taught in the old-school books I have, however, I do see those problems as an unintended consequence of the 1958 change in education.

Just so. And where do these ideals of education originate? — Vera Mont

Did you miss the explanation that education comes from philosophy? Maybe we should go back and cover that more carefully?

No, that got the christians thrown into Roman prisons. Much later, Constantine imposed Christianity - or some Romanized form thereof - onto Europe. That still didn't bring on the dark age. The dissolution of the Roman empire did. — Vera Mont

I don't think you're chronology is correct. Christians did not attack anyone until after Constantine legitimaized their religion and then they started killing each other because Romans lacked a word to express the concept of a god having 3 aspects, so worshipping the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was seen as worshipping 3 gods, not 1 god. This subject is so important perhaps we should tackle it separately. It looks like my thread about how the Greeks and Romans were different must be in a history forum, not this one. We have a couple of disagreements because of not recognize the important differences between Athens and Rome. I will gladly open a thread for examining the differences between the Greeks and the Romans.

Yes, the Roman Christians did bring on the Dark Age. This will become more obvious when examing the differences between Athens and Rome. Did you know Greek Jews wrote the first Bible and they had very different words and concepts than the Romans? Jesus is the word, or logos, is a Greek concept and it goes with seeking universal truth. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism. Rome's quest for power and glory was a different thing. Constantine was interested in winning wars and he saw Christianity as helpful to that goal. He also moved his empire east where gold was more accessible and trade routes were better. He needed military strength to do that. That had nothing to do with the Greek Jew's acceptance of Jesus as the word. Rome was not the intellectual leader that Athens was and Athens was not an empire.

No, it's a result of all the history that went before, of the condition of the world today and of the general craziness of our race. Education has a little part in what happens in the big world; it's not pivotal. — Vera Mont

You and I strongly disagree on this point. Throughout history, nothing has been more powerful than education. That education may be Homer or the Bible or the classics of Schalsticiam, or intentionally transmitting a secular culture for democracy and liberty coming out of the Age of Enlightenment, or the education can be focused on technology for military and industrial purposes as was so for Prussian-led Germany. Whatever the purpose of education that is what a nation will manifest.

Or to quote John Dewey "If we reflect upon the various ideals of education that are prevalent in the different countries, we see that what they all aim at is to organize capacities for conduct." This was so since the earliest civilization but back in the day, it was stories of the gods that manifested the various cultures. Greeks moved away from that and Christians brought us back to education for a culture.

In all the Greek city-states, except for Sparta, the purpose of education was to produce good citizens. Children were trained in music, art, literature, science, math, and politics. — mrdonn

Homer and the stories of the gods were essential reading like the Bible is essential to Christians.

In Rome, Christians destroyed the pagan temples that were places of learning. That threw the West into the Dark Age, leaving only Christianity to provide an education and guilds that taught a trade. While in the East, ongoing learning gave Islam a golden age of growth and prosperity.

I want to point out the argument about education and the Greeks having city-states not an empire, are the same argument. This is about power and authority and liberty or the lack of all three.

The Greeks also had an empire - a big one - that fell. And the Romans also left behind a sizeable cultural legacy. Plus some amazing roads. Why cherry-pick? They were both admirable and abominable. — Vera Mont

After you check out this link we can discuss why the Greek city-states were not an empire equal to the Roman empire. https://www.britannica.com/topic/city-state . Surely this difference and the history weighed heavily on Lincoln's mind when he determined to enter a war to save the union. Ever since the civil war, the federal government has become more and more powerful, diminishing the power of sovereign states. I am not sure this movement toward a military empire like Rome is desirable. Nor am I sure it is not desirable. But I think the glory of Rome is not exactly what the United States set out to manifest.

What the Greeks had was more like what the Iroquois had than an empire like Rome.

The Iroquois (/ˈɪrəkwɔɪ/ or /ˈɪrəkwɑː/), officially the Haudenosaunee (/ˌhoʊdinoʊˈʃoʊniː/[3][4] meaning "people of the longhouse"), are an Iroquoian-speaking confederacy of First Nations peoples in northeast North America/Turtle Island. They were known during the colonial years to the French as the Iroquois League, and later as the Iroquois Confederacy. The English called them the Five Nations, comprising the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca (listed geographically from east to west). After 1722, the Iroquoian-speaking Tuscarora people from the southeast were accepted into the confederacy, which became known as the Six Nations. — Wikipedia

I think what the colonist had in mind was a confederation of sovereign states. For darn sure not all states are pleased with the laws and influence the federal government is imposing on them.