But wouldn’t Einstein’s argument also be explained metaphysically as….. — Bob Ross

That isn’t so much Einstein’s metaphysical view as it is his precursor to his own empirical view. I’m not sure he even posits a metaphysical view in juxtaposition to a philosopher from Kant’s era, but he does regarding religion and whatnot.

It seems like they are incompatible views, but Einstein’s empirically verified views can be reconciled with Kantianism insofar as one denies Einstein’s metaphysical views. — Bob Ross

The views are incompatible, as we’ve already established. Einstein’s empirically verified views cannot be reconciled with Kant’s, because Kant never entertained an empirical view anywhere near Einstein’s.

Again, my disclaimer: I am more familiar with Einstein’s science than his philosophy, and regarding his philosophy I am more familiar with his views on things having little to do with Kant, and regarding his little views on Kant I am more familiar with the exposition of his denial of Kantian a priori transcendental predications and on his denials, I object to them insofar as I think he missed the point.
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….sensations are supposed to be the raw input of things-in-themselves…… — Bob Ross

No they are not. Raw input of things. Things-in-themselves are exactly what is NOT a thing of which we have the sensation. Why do people have such a hard time with IN-ITSELF? MY-self, YOUR-self, no problem. Along comes the notion of IT-self, and folks just go all bonkers. Makes no damn sense to me.
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But isn’t ‘nature’ the totality of the ‘things-in-themselves — Bob Ross

Capitol N Nature is the totality of real natural things; little n nature is the composition or constituency or manner of being, of things caused naturally or conceived rationally. I suppose there’s nothing suspiciously untoward in calling Nature the totality of things-in-themselves, but in doing that, we’d immediately lose access to knowledge of any part of Nature, insofar as, all being things-in-themselves no part of it can appear to us as phenomena, which is a theoretical contradiction.
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Only if by ‘nature’ your claims are restricted to the possibility of experience…. — Bob Ross

I’m ok with Nature being restricted to the possibility of experience. I’m not going to experience the nature of, say, justice, but I’m perfectly qualified to think how its nature would or would not be represented by an experience.
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I think kantianism operates implicitly under the assumption that causality is not merely the pure forms of our intuition — Bob Ross

You’d be correct, as far as I understand it. Kantianism, per se, operates under the assumption causality is not a pure form of our intuitions, of which there are only space and time. In Kant, cause, and its various derivatives including causality, is a category residing in understanding represented by and subsumed under conceptions, a function of logic in the form of discursive judgement, whereas the pure form of intuition resides in sensibility represented by phenomena but subsumed under imagination, an “arrangement” in the form of aesthetic judgement. Schopenhauer is the one that formally includes causality in the pure forms of intuition.

I don’t know why a Kantian would even think that they are “fathoming” properties of a thing-in-itself — Bob Ross

He wouldn’t. And if he does, he has lost sight of what he professes to know.

….these do not seem to be compatible views….. — Bob Ross

Yes, as we talked about a few pages ago.
…..Kant didn’t have the vision in physics Einstein had, and Einstein didn’t accept the vision in metaphysics Kant had;
…..Kant didn’t find a need to think about a stationary clock here and a moving clock out there, and Einstein didn’t find a need to grant that in order to think mere possible events requires an absolutely necessary precondition in human reason itself;
…..Kant understood perfectly well if there was a clock here and a clock there, one moved and the other didn’t, there must be the experience of change in a perceiving subject, the change relative to the clocks themselves utterly irrelevant except as the representation of an internal logical human principle. Einstein used mathematics to prove if there is a stationary clock here and a moving clock there, there must be a change relative only to the clocks but not as an experience of the subject, who only experiences the verification of the mathematical logic but not the relativity of the clock’s times to each other, which is a function of Nature alone without any regard whatsoever for principles of human reason.

…..as if Kant is right then Einstein cannot take the viewpoint of ‘everything is relative’ since it speaks of the things-in-themselves—not the individuals’ experience. — Bob Ross

Ehhhh….I suppose there’s some truth in that. Einstein’s math with respect to objects determines a mere possible human experience, or in some cases no human experience at all, re: events at or approaching the SOL, so at that point, perhaps the objects must be considered as thing-in-themselves. On the other hand, insofar as in Kant knowledge is experience and there is no experience of events regarding objects at or approaching the SOL, it follows that all we have as humans is the validity of the pure mathematical logic, which has nothing to do with objects themselves but merely represents a deductive inference for them, hence removes the thing-in-itself objection.

Furthermore, upon the successful exhibition of that which was formally only mathematical logic, makes necessary actual real things, which again removes the thing-in-itself objection, re: Hafele–Keating, 1971.

Anyway….I’ve reached the limit of my formal physics.
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”So, yes, human reason is the only means by which the properties of real things is fathomed.
-Mww

It is a very, prima facie, appealing argument I must say; but it fails because the “proof” of reason actively determining things’ properties requires that the representations are somewhat accurate of the things-in-themselves, which, if Kant is right, there is no way to determine anything about them — Bob Ross

Representations are somewhat accurate….yes, but only of the sensations evoked in us of a thing, not a thing-in-itself. It reduces to reason not “proving”, but merely justifying, the accuracy of representations, but not necessarily the accuracy of the actual constituency of things-in-themselves. Nature Herself will inform if the properties determined as representing objects is accurate or not, as shown by evolving experiences of the same object over time.

I figured you’d glean from “the properties of real things is fathomed” presupposes those properties, which makes explicit that which fathoms cannot be the source of that which is fathomed. Understanding actively determines things’ properties, not reason, which only shows conflicts in such determinations and thereby conflicts in understandings. Now it should become clearer that regarding the properties of objects, “fathom” means “to find uncontested”.
(Too loose a definition? Yeah….maybe. Or, too tight an analysis. Not sure which, but it made sense at the time.)
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”that Nature only showed him a thing of a certain shape…..
-Mww

…..the ‘nature’ you refer to is reduced to….an incomprehensible nothing….which cannot be understood to even “show him a thing of a certain shape”. — Bob Ross

What….I can’t free-wheel with language, just a little? Nature doesn’t technically “show” me anything, but when things make their presence perceivable to me, are they not shown to me? While it may be a stretch to say that because those things that make their presence known to me are in Nature then it follows that Nature showed them to me.

And why should Nature be an incomprehensible nothing? If I can think a conceivable representation then it is necessarily something, and it being a conception that doesn’t immediately contradict any other conception it must be comprehensible. Right?

Sorry for the dialectical delay.

All good.

I don't believe that there need be real objects which we represent. — Manuel

There might not NEED be real objects we represent, but are there in fact such objects?

We already know we have the ability to image real objects…..for all practical purposes to “see” them….without an immediate perception of them. We call it imagination, but it reduces to electrical stipulation of the brain. Or electrochemical. Or both. Doesn’t matter; we can do it. My position is humans think in images, which makes explicit we “see” objects mentally as if they are the same objects we perceive sensibly.

But you’re probably thinking of some sort of external machine that stimulates the brain in such a way that a real object appears in our heads. That’s fine by me, in that I don’t think the brain cares much where the stimulus comes from, as long as what happens with that stimulus is the same no matter where it comes from. Thing is, though, under normal conditions, this perception enables this stimulated neural pathway, so….how to direct the external stimulation along the same pathway in order to generate the experience of the same object but without the perceptual conditioning event.

Does this change synthetic a-priori knowledge? — Manuel

Assuming external stimulation, I’d have to say, yes, it makes it irrelevant. Synthetic a priori knowledge is the synthesis of certain conceptions relative to each other, but with an external stimulation of the brain we can’t say we’ve synthesized anything insofar as we couldn’t affirm the employment of our understanding from whence the conceptions and their relations come from.

On the other hand, we’re not the least conscious of the synthesis of conceptions, which is a purely speculative metaphysical methodology, so external stimulation, while it doesn’t prove that speculative system is not the case, it doesn’t disprove it either. All that can be said is the brain does all the real work, which nobody contested anyway, even without knowing how it does its work.

we have are dispositional states which objects "awaken" or "make clear", when we have experience of them. — Manuel

“….. But, though all our knowledge begins with experience, it by no means follows that all arises out of experience. For, on the contrary, it is quite possible that our empirical knowledge is a compound of that which we receive through impressions, and that which the faculty of cognition supplies from itself (sensuous impressions giving merely the occasion), an addition which we cannot distinguish from the original element given by sense, till long practice has made us attentive to, and skilful in separating it. It is, therefore, a question which requires close investigation, and not to be answered at first sight, whether there exists a knowledge altogether independent of experience, and even of all sensuous impressions?…”

Those dispositional states reside in us as a condition of our human intellect. Metaphysics doesn’t call them states, per se, but something consistent with the theory which suggests their necessity. Kant calls them pure intuitions with respect to the perception of objects, the categories with respect to understanding the perceptions, pure reason as “the One to Rule Them All”.

Scientifically, what would a dispositional state look like? How would we know it?

Hmmm….I see what you mean. Does it change anything, though, regarding synthetic a priori knowledge? I mean, even if we give ideas empirical content, being a mere idea, it shan’t have a real object represented by it, which prohibits a posteriori\ knowledge of it.

“…. A conception is either empirical or pure. A pure conception, in so far as it has its origin in the understanding alone, and is not the conception of a pure sensuous image, is called notion. A conception formed from notions, which transcends the possibility of experience, is an idea, or a conception of reason….”.

I’m sure there are better, or, at least, different, ways of using the concept “empirical”, but textual consistency here requires Kant’s version, which I’ve tried to maintain.

Principle. The common name.

it's not clear to me that a-priori knowledge need not have "emprical content". — Manuel

By Kantian definition, and in relation to synthetic a priori knowledge, it cannot. Use another definition, perhaps it can.

“…. By the term “knowledge à priori,” therefore, we shall in the sequel understand, not such as is independent of this or that kind of experience, but such as is absolutely so of all experience….”.

All experience is of empirical content, so if independent of all experience, independent of all empirical content.

It may be good and detailed, but….does it ring true enough like a dainty dinner bell…a little tinkle, or resoundingly true like The Great Hour Bell….15 tons of deafening clang?

HA!!! I don’t visit this category, so never saw the thread. Which would have got my attention forthwith, donchaknow. If only you’d done that notification thingy I don’t even know what it’s called but people do it all the time, kinda thing.

So….in response to the opening query, re: the author recounting Hegel (although without the Hegelian context), “synthetic a prior knowledge regards the formal cognitive structures which allow for experience."……it is somewhat ambiguous, I think.

A priori in CPR is stipulated in the text as pure, meaning absent any and all empirical conditions. Experience, in Kant, is entirely empirical, therefore, in Kant a priori knowledge has nothing to do with experience, which would include the possibility of it. The possibility of experience is determined by the categories, which are certainly pure a priori, but are merely conceptions, and while part of the formal cognitive structure, are not constituents in the relations inherent in judgements, cognitions or knowledge.

So now it becomes….does synthetic a priori regard the formal cognitive functions themselves, without regard to experience. Here the problem is, those same formal cognitive functions are used for both experience and pure thought, as befitting the admitted dualistic nature of the human intellectual system. Notice, however, that “cognitive” by definition precludes sensibility, and by association, intuition, phenomenal representation and productive imagination, none of which have anything to do with understanding, the faculty of thought, hence, cognition in general. Which serves as warrant that synthetic a priori conditions do not relate to experience, which does necessarily mandate phenomenal representation.

Knowledge is just knowledge, the distinctions for it being the relative sources of it. It is an end in itself, with means determined by the objects with which it is concerned. Empirical knowledge, or knowledge a posteriori, is legislated by Nature, in that if our knowledge is mistakenly determined, Nature will inform us of it. Knowledge a priori, on the other hand, having no empirical content, cannot be legislated by Nature, which is manifested empirically only, hence, must be legislated by something else, which is therefore theoretically allocated to logic, and the LNC in particular.

So knowledge a priori, because it is legislated by logic and can have no empirical content, must get its content from representations that do not arise from anything sensible, which leaves only understanding as its source, the representations of which are conceptions. Because there is no knowledge possible at all from a single conception, it follows necessarily that knowledge a priori is the conjunction of a manifold, or a plurality, of conceptions, the relations between them logically conditioned by the LNC. Insofar as the conjunction of conceptions to each other, commonly called the synthesis of them, must also consider the relation of one to the other, with respect to the possible distinctions in them, and the degree of that distinction, is found the relative truth contained in the proposition the synthesis obtains. Where the conceptions relate to each other with sufficient accord, they are analytical, are called tautological, and are true in and of themselves without the necessity of additional support. Where the conceptions do not relate to each other with such sufficiency, but the conception in the subject of the ensuing proposition does not relate to the conception in the predicate even at all, but rather, adds to it in the completion of the proposition, it is synthetical.

The Grand Finale…..synthetic a priori knowledge is that in which the synthesis of dissimilar conceptions constructs a logically valid proposition, judgement or general cognition. All without any experience, or related to it in any way, but carrying with it a HUGE caveat just the same.

And what is the common name for a proposition in which the subject/predicate relation of dissimilar conceptions results in a logically valid conclusion? The answer to THAT, is what synthetic a priori knowledge, is.

By “impossible for that thought to not have occurred”, you are referring to math being a necessary precondition for the possibility of experience? Otherwise, I am not sure I followed this part. — Bob Ross

Nothing to do with the objects of thought, but only of thought in general. Was there ever a thought you didn’t think? Of course not, which is to say every thought of yours was both a priori and certain, which is its form. Now if the content of each thought is included, it follows necessarily that the object thought has the very same certainty as it relates to its form. But singular thoughts are very seldom of any use, and thus it is almost always the case the human understanding conjoins a series of thoughts, in which the certainty then becomes the business of logic, particularly, the LNC.

In the quote I provided….. — Bob Ross

By which I’m supposing you mean Einstein’s opinion. I never found anything particularly impressive about it, actually. Mathematics can be certain in its mere form, but is only true insofar as it conforms to Nature. All logic to be thought….which is all mathematics is…..needs its content verified empirically. So the opinion reduces to, mathematical propositions refer to understanding for their certainty, so they do not refer to reality, and, insofar as mathematical propositions refer to reality, it is not for the certainty of them, but for the empirical verification of their certainty, which is their proofs. His opinion is shared by the enlightened metaphysicians of his day, just…..you know…..stated differently.

Is human reason, then, without experience, merely by taking thought, able to fathom the properties of real things?

Well……..yeah. How else does a thing get its properties, if the human thinker doesn’t decide what they are? Basketballs as such don’t exist naturally without immediate human causality. Basketballs have the properties that make a real thing a basketball only because a human logical reason says what those properties must be. So he gets the idea that because Nature has shown him round things that roll, he can make a round thing of leather and fill it with air. But that’s not quite right, in that Nature only showed him a thing of a certain shape, but not that it was round, which he came up with all by himself, and assigned that as a property inherent in things of that shape, without regard to whether he, or Nature, was its causality.

If Nature gave the properties of things to us along with the thing itself…..why do we assign spin to an elementary particle as a property of it, when spin as rotating mass has no relation to what spin as this property, is meant to indicate?

So, yes, human reason is the only means by which the properties of real things is fathomed. That there are natural conditions of real things, to which properties are the means for comprehending those conditions, is true enough, but it remains the one is not the same as the other.
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”If Einstein held that math didn’t relate to reality with certainty, on what ground, then, did he actually invent mathematical propositions to explain certain aspects of it……
-Mww

Because he thought it could be empirically verified, not that the equations themselves, nor math in general was a priori certain. — Bob Ross

That’s the cool thing about Einstein’s avant-guarde thought experiments: there is no way to empirically verify them. Otherwise, they’d be actual scientific experiments. Which leaves naught but the internal logic of mathematical propositions a priori for the certainty by which the physical experiments may even eventually prove the math, while logically certain in itself, doesn’t correspond to Nature. I don’t see how it empirical verification can be thought that doesn’t necessarily presuppose the mathematical logic to which the verification, whether affirming or negating, relates.
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wouldn’t Einstein’s viewpoint be impossible under Kantianism, since there is no way to know anything about the viewpoint of the things-in-themselves (i.e., Universe)? — Bob Ross

I don’t see a relationship here.
…..I think Einstein admits his philosophical view is Kantian with respect to mathematical propositions, but he won’t admit the Kantian methodological predication from which it obtains;
…..the viewpoint of things-in-themselves doesn’t make any sense, insofar as things do not have a viewpoint;
…..to say the Universe is a thing-in-itself confuses what a thing-in-itself is supposed to represent. For us, every object of perception presupposes that object as a thing-in-itself. If the Universe is not ever going to be an object of perception, such as are those objects contained in it, then there’s no necessary presupposition for it to be a thing-in-itself. We can think Universe as a conceptual representation, but we’re never going to intuit it as a phenomenal representation. That is to say…the Universe will not be an appearance to our sensibility, hence will never cause a sensation in us, which means it is not a thing, which makes a thing-in-itself corresponding to it, meaningless.
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But they weren’t obtained in experience….. — Bob Ross

Did you mean to say….were obtained?

Nahhhh….not your fault, so much as a difference in conceptual domain, perhaps. I think of perception as a mere effect, without regard to a internal process of its own. For whatever it is we think of as empirical knowledge, all perception is for, is to be the occasion by which we become aware there is something lending itself to being known.

Perception doesn’t think, judge or cognize, doesn’t experience. it’s just a bridge, from the outside to the inside.

An eye doctor, or a general physicist, may beg to differ.

Einstein didn’t share Kant’s view that math is a priori certain…. — Bob Ross

All ‘a priori certain’ is meant to indicate, is if it comes from human understanding, for whatever is thought, it is impossible for that thought to not have occurred, which is the same as saying that thought is certain. From there, because both Kant and Einstein recognized mathematics is “a product of human thought”, it is for that reason, both a priori and certain. Then the question becomes, for whatever is thought, does Nature support that thought, such that rational…..logical….certainty relates to empirical conditions, without contradiction.

Gotta consider the times: Galileo knew of relativity respecting a single subject relative to the world, and Kant knew of spherical geometry respecting geometric formulae, but neither had experiences of velocities greater than that of a running horse, so both are relieved of not having the occasions for Einstein’s thought experiments, re: trains and station platforms, and, Einstein’s relativity (of simultaneity) relates two subjects to a common worldly event, from a perspective outside either affected subject.

If Einstein held that math didn’t relate to reality with certainty, on what ground, then, did he actually invent mathematical propositions to explain certain aspects of it, re: w = c - v? And, because that formula had no existence, had never been thought, and for which therefore there could be no possible experience, how is it not a priori?

Not an issue, really. Einstein didn’t approve of a priori mathematical certainty, merely because the content of the formulas he envisioned and constructed had no chance of being obtained in experience. He grounds “Relativity: the Special and the General” on assumptions, re: “….. it had always tacitly been assumed in physics that the statement of time had an absolute significance…..”, and, “…. based on yet a second assumption, which, in the light of a strict consideration, appears to be arbitrary, although it was always tacitly made even before the introduction of the theory of relativity…”

Kant thought in consideration of his current time, in which his mathematical proofs were readily available without technical support; Einstein thought in consideration of times in which his ideas must wait for proofs, pending technological support. What…a scant three years for GR, but 35 for SR? Something like that.

The term “universality” in Kant meant wherever a human is, in Einstein it meant wherever the Universe is. In the one, it is a logical concept, in the other, an empirical. Nowadays, man has been on the Moon, and Voyager left the solar system without falling apart, so, with respect to the certainty of mathematical proposition as they relate to reality….whose thinking was the more precise?

Anyway….rambling.

What you experience is the end result of an intensive assembly line of computational processes.” — FrancisRay

We’re talking about perception, which is the initiation; he’s talking about experience, which is the end, of knowledge acquisition. Experience is indeed a process in which time is a necessary element; perception is not.
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If there is a time of no perception and a time of perception then would this not suggest the necessity of time? — FrancisRay

Absolutely. But the question is to whether time belongs to perception…..

Does perception not require time? — FrancisRay

…..which implies time as a condition of perception itself, rather than as a condition of that which perceives. Taken a step further, if we say perception is that which happens to us, we have no need of the time element of it, insofar as all we are concerned with, is that it did or did not happen. When taken in such sense, it is more existence than time, which holds as primary condition. Notice also, that existence is a category, by which perception of things is even possible, but time is a mere intuition, which only makes possible distinguishing the co-existent or the successive perceptual representation of things from each other, for which the existences are already affirmed.

From some speculative points of view, it is. Objects are given to us via perception, The most we need to say, is there is a time of perception and a time of no perception, which tacitly denies time belongs to the perception itself, but rather, to that which the perception effects.

From a physical science perspective, regarding the translation of energy by the sensory apparatus, time is an element of the process, agreed. But the human intellect doesn’t perceive scientifically, but treats perception as a mere occasion for the application of a speculative metaphysical knowledge system.
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Just like that, yes.

It seems indisputable to me that perception requires time in order in order to to happen. — FrancisRay

Ok. What do you think perception is?

Does perception not require time? — FrancisRay

Not metaphysically, it doesn’t, with which the thread topic is concerned. We perceive a thing, or we do not. Perception requires an object, and even if the object requires time for its relations, it does not follow that the mere perception of the object does.

I'm not sure it would be possible to doubt the reality of time without doubting the reality of the entire phenomenal world. — FrancisRay

Agreed. But that doesn’t say much. We don’t doubt the world, and if time is a necessary condition for the manifold of phenomenal representations of that world, the the reality of time is given. But, real in what sense?

I’ve just only ever heard of Einstein’s space/time as a fabric — Bob Ross

Actually, in his 1926 Britannica entry, he calls it “four-dimensional continuum”, derived from the fact things are described in a space and in a time, simultaneously. Kant said the same thing, in that nothing is ever given to us empirically that isn’t conditioned by space and time.

In Metaphysical Principles of Natural Science, 1786, Kant say……

“… Thus, for all experience and for every inference from experience, it can’t make any difference whether I choose to •consider a body as moving or rather to •consider the body as at rest and the space it is in as moving in the opposite direction with the same speed. The two ways of looking at it are strictly equivalent.…”

…..which can be found, in a way, in Einstein’s equivalence principle: elevator gerdankexperiment, 1907, and theoretically posited in Relativity: The Special and General, 1916:

“…. If, relative to K, K’ is a uniformly moving co-ordinate system devoid of rotation, then natural phenomena run their course with respect to K’ according to exactly the same general laws as with respect to K. This statement is called the principle of relativity (in the restricted sense)….”

It is documented that Einstein read philosophy, had favorites in it, but would he ever admit to taking a hint from Kant? Nahhhhh….I doubt it. But, there’s the two texts; make of it what you will.
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So, under your view, space curving and time dilating are not classified as behaviors? Then what are they classified as? — Bob Ross

The effects of gravity on objects in space for the one; the difference in measurable durations relative to objects of significantly disparate velocities, for the other.

The devil is in the details. Same as it ever was…..

…..what you think of space/time fabric? — Bob Ross

It isn’t a fabric, it’s a mathematical model of a gravitational field under specific conditions. The Universe, reality in general, in and of itself….whatever there is that isn’t us…..doesn’t need space or time. We as calculating intelligences, do.

But then, the Universe doesn’t need mathematical models or gravitational fields either, so……
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……space and time are a posteriori (since we only understand them better via empirical investigation)? — Bob Ross

Thing is, we’re investigating objects a posteriori, in order to understand them better, not space or time. All we need from those two, is the understanding, the recognition, that because of them, things don’t happen all at once, and things aren’t all in the same place.

Are they still a priori insofar as they are forms of our experience….. — Bob Ross

Technically, forms of the representations of objects, or phenomena, but, a priori, yes.

…..but their behaviors are a posteriori? — Bob Ross

Space and time don’t behave, don’t possess behavior. Things possess relations between themselves or between them and us, which is what we’d loosely call their behavior, but is really our representations of their responses to force.

Long ways from moral realism, aren’t we?

there absolutely no way for a person to willfully obey a moral principle in and of itself without having a taste to do it. — Bob Ross

There is an established metaphysical system in which this condition is precisely descriptive of true moral agency, re: Enlightenment deontology. The only limitation therein with respect to a moral act, is the physical accomplishment of it, which makes explicit obligation to a willful principle, the ground of such system, has no regard for the contingencies of taste, but only the necessities of law.

Of course, established is one thing, practiced is quite another.
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as a transcendental idealist, do you deny Einstein’s general/special relativity? — Bob Ross

Oh heck no. The science is good. Far and away beyond the bounds of my possible experience, but good science nonetheless. Time dilation, which held for our flight to Rome a couple years ago, is….what, a couple picoseconds? My sons here in their frame, and me there at a 500mph frame, a difference in age disparity noticed by some dude with the most sensitive time device available but not the least noticed by me or them.

And ya know what? I don’t have the slightest need to locate Bobby’s Badass Burger Barn with a 3-foot margin of error, but I recognize that I might want that precision if I’m planting a Hellfire on it. Like….after one too many messed-up orders.

If anything, I’d take exception to Einstein’s dismissal of the transcendental nature of pure mathematics, as Kant authored the notion. He stated for the record mathematics is discovered, but in fact I rather think the proofs of mathematical relations are discovered, but math, in and of itself, is a purely rational construction by, and manifestation of, human intelligence.

Shall we chalk up the disparities to a mere domain of discourse?

so are you saying that there is an ‘interest’ devoid of ‘will’ which is a part of the structure of being a will? Is that the idea? — Bob Ross

That’s not what I’m tying to get across, no. Interest…..you know, that certain je ne sais quoi, that which underpins a consideration, a focusing of attention specifically. So, yes, interest is devoid of will insofar as having an interest is not to will anything, nor is it the structure of will, which is reducible to pure practical reason. Accordingly, before anything is to be willed there must be an interest in the manner in which it is to be done, hence, interest in a principle which grounds the will’s determined volition.

If there is really an ‘interest’ (i.e., a desire) which pertains to the structure of being a will and not to a will itself, then I think that would be, by definition, a moral fact (in its own right). — Bob Ross

That may be right. If a structural component of will is desire, and if will is the source of moral behavior, then it follows desire serves as possible ground of such moral behavior. However, desire takes no account of good in the attainment of its objects other than the satisfaction of the agent, but mere ‘feel good’ satisfaction can never be deemed truly moral behavior, which is ‘good’ in and of itself regardless of the feeling derived from it.
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But under Einsteinien space/time fabric, they are not synthetic judgments—they are not isolated ‘pure’ forms of one’s experience (like Kant thought): they do pertain as properties to the things-in-themselves. — Bob Ross

Yes, that’s true, and further instance of space/time conceptual irreconcilability of the two geniuses. In fact, in the 1920 essay, he wishes his system to be understood as paying no attention to space, but rather, to relations of objects to each other. Kant does that as well, but stipulates relative to each is meaningless without the space n which they are extended.

For an interesting read, see…..

https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/article/58/12/34/394660/Albert-Einstein-as-a-Philosopher-of#:~:text=By%20the%20age%20of%2016%2C%20he%20had%20already,on%20Kant%20in%20the%20summer%20semester%20of%201897.

….and find it isn’t the relative space/time distinctions that distinguish these guys, it’s the mathematics by which space and time are useful, that does.

On strong indications…..agreed. Seems reasonable.

Yeah, Kant is my go-to philosopher.

At what point should we abandon the metaphysical assumption that matter can be conscious and/or generate consciousness? — RogueAI

I’m not aware of a metaphysics assuming that. If it doesn’t, it can still be abandoned, just not for those reasons.

If there is a subjective condition by which behaviors are legislated, and these conditions come into conflict which results in argument, does it then follow that they are in some sense objective? — Leontiskos

I would say the argument is objective, the conditions in conflict be what they may. On the other hand, here is an proposition that states any cognition or series of cognitions shared by all members of a set capable of them, are for that reason, objective cognitions. I’m not so sure about that myself, but, it’s out there. Some folks rejecting that form of objectivity favor a thing called “intersubjectivity”, which just looks like subject/object version of Frankenstein’s ogre.

What categorical error were you thinking as possible?

…..all interest is of a will, but the desire to do something irregardless of whatever surface-level pleasure/pain is better, correct? — Bob Ross

The interest isn’t of the will, which is the autonomous faculty of volitions. The interest residing in the agent, is in a principle, with which the will determines a volition. The desire to do something, regardless of pain or pleasure, still needs to be informed as to what is to be done, which returns to will.

I also, nowadays, find the moral facts, if they do exist, to be irrelevant as long as the person has committed themselves to being rational. — Bob Ross

In a way that’s fitting, but I’d probably say….as long as he has committed himself to being moral. If there are moral facts, however subjective they may be, and one adheres to them by his actions, he would be deemed moral antecedent to being deemed rational.

Maybe that’s the key: subjective moral fact equates to moral commitment; objective moral facts equates to rational commitment. Or is that just adding yet another chef to the kitchen?
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….how do you reconcile Einstein’s general/special relativity with Kantian notions of space and time? — Bob Ross

They can’t be reconciled, because Einstein invoked a geometry Kant didn’t use in his construction of the conceptions of space and time. Which is odd, in a way, in that Kant taught mathematics, which implies he knew of spherical geometries, so it is more likely he used plane geometries as examples in his theoretical tenets in CPR merely for simplicity, to only go as far as he needed to prove a point. In other words, it doesn’t matter one whit that the interior angles of a spherical triangle add up to more or less than two right angles, if it is still necessarily true the interior angles of a Euclidean plane triangle equals two right angles, and it is also quite true the thought of that sum cannot ever be found in the mere fact there are three interior angles.

“…. Of course the conviction of the "truth" of geometrical propositions in this sense is founded exclusively on rather incomplete experience. For the present we shall assume the "truth" of the geometrical propositions, then at a later stage (in the general theory of relativity) we shall see that this "truth" is limited, and we shall consider the extent of its limitation….”
(Einstein, 1920: Einstein’s equivalent to Kant’s Prolegomena: relativity for dummies in one, transcendental philosophy for dummies in the other)

Einstein had a problem with Kant’s derivation of true propositions more than his notions of space and time. Just as SR and GR took Newton’s physics further than Newton himself but didn’t disprove what was originally given, so too did Einstein demonstrate that Kant’s notions of mathematical truths were limited, but also didn’t refute them as given.

Nevertheless, there is a clandestine categorical error in Einstein’s claim. Kant derived true propositions in order to prove their possibility, and because the proof of their possibility stands, they can be employed as ground for something else relative to them. Einstein disputed the propositions as being true in any condition, but they were never intended for any condition, but only for one.

Another thing. Einstein didn’t like Kant’s notion of synthetic a priori propositions….the ground of all mathematical proofs….yet had to use that very philosophical derivation for his own gedankenexperiment, which he drew from Ernst Mach, 1883, who was……waiiiittttt for it….an acknowledged Kantian.

Go figure.

I am just curious: is she a transcendental idealist too? — Bob Ross

Nahhhh….oil and water. She’s a retired Fed in the intelligence services with U-Dub Masters in history and library science, for her, it’s facts and nothing but the facts.

….both a “interest” in a “principle” and a “desire” in a “’good’ feeling” are both mere acts of “taste”, just separated semantically by what it is directed towards. — Bob Ross

Conventionally, I suppose that’s close enough, insofar as either may be reducible to aesthetic judgement. Still, in proper philosophy, I submit it is not so much the directed towards, but rather, the arising from. The difference manifests, and for which philosophical account should be taken, in those occasions where one feels pleasure for doing a bad thing, or, conversely, feels pain or displeasure about doing a good thing. Simply put, it follows that interest in a principle it that by which a moral act is given and its negation impossible regardless of circumstance, but mere desire for a good feeling is just as likely to invoke an immoral act as a moral one, which makes negation of one by the other not only possible, but increasingly probable, conditioned by the difficulty inherent in the circumstance.
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So is “shall”, for you, a command with literally no alternatives (e.g., a person being forced to do something, etc.)? If so, then that doesn’t seem like the word is too often applicable. — Bob Ross

Yeah, humans: sorryful bunch, to be sure. Even if they know what’s right, they’ll sometimes manage to talk themselves out of doing it, or allow someone else to do the talking. A command of reason is always applicable, but not always effected.
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I’ve been thinking about “moral realism”. Is morality a real thing? Even if it isn’t, per se, it seems the case there is in all humans a condition by which certain behaviors are legislated, so if the behaviors are real in one sense of the term, wouldn’t that condition by which behaviors are caused be real is some sense? I dunno….it’s a fine line between granting the realness of behavior but denying the realness of behavior’s causality.

I think there must be as many moral facts as there are acts in accordance with subjective moral commands. But that is not sufficient reason to grant objective moral facts in general, to which one is morally obligated. While I am perfectly entitled to say my act is in fact a moral act, am I thereby entitled to say my act is derived from a moral fact, and if I am not so entitled, by what warrant is my act, in fact, moral? If I then fall back on moral command as necessary causality, am I then forced to deem a mere command of reason, a fact?

Leporidae excavation if there ever was one.

when the object of perception are the mental contents such as images in the past memories or imagination, which doesn't need space and time — Corvus

Every object of perception, no matter its name after its perception, is conditioned by space and time and is a mental content. Images in memory were once objects of perception, hence so conditioned. Objects of imagination may or may not be conditioned by space and time, insofar as objects of the productive imagination reside in intuition, hence are, but objects of the reproductive imagination found in understanding do not, hence are not.

Kant said, or would say that space and time still applies to the memories or imaginations for their content? — Corvus

Yep. Almost just like that. Got to keep all this in relation to time. An object in memory was at one time an experience, but as a post hoc memory, it is not. In that case, it is a thought alone, the object which was an experience a posteriori is then of consciousness a priori. Imagination is quite different, as noted above.
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Would you not agree that space and time only applies as the precondition of perception, only when the objects of the perception are the external material objects? — Corvus

I see what you mean. We’re not going to perceive anything that isn’t an external material object or caused by it. But still, there are external material objects that are not objects of perception, which sort of demands they be disassociated from each other. And when connected to the strictly internal intuitions of space and time, dialectical consistency demands that to which they apply be internal as well. External material objects are not internal…..DUH!!!!!…..so the disassociation must arise somewhere else.

In Kant, then, the external material object is that which appears, and the object of perception is the sensation afforded by that which has appeared. Now perhaps it is clear space and time have nothing to do with any of this, insofar as all that has happened thus far are simply physical manifestations, not yet subjected to intelligence.

So….no, I do not agree space and time apply to the preconditions of perception, nor that the objects of perception are external material objects.

…..Experience is a far too wide concept…. — Corvus

It may be too wide for all that the human intellect can do, sure. But with respect to space and time, experience is only ever going to be whatever they allow.

If perception is predicated on physiology, wouldn’t perception be possible even without things to perceive? Wouldn’t the senses still work, even if there wasn’t anything to sense? Otherwise, it would have to be the case, e.g., the mechanics of sight are caused by things rather than the physical structure which makes them eyes in the first place. If it is really the various physiologies that make the various corresponding perceptions possible, space and time do not.

Might I suggest Kant meant for space and time to be the pre-condition for experience? They are that which makes experience possible?

What I want is often in conflict with what I think I should do. — Wayfarer

True enough, and the bane of humanity in general. That notwithstanding, if you ever come to know what you shall do, or what you shall not do, then you must have understood your own will.
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….just mentioned Kant's "Thing-in-Itself" to criticise him…. — Corvus

“…. For as the world is in one aspect entirely idea, so in another it is entirely will. A reality which is neither of these two, but an object in itself (into which the thing in itself has unfortunately dwindled in the hands of Kant), is the phantom of a dream, and its acceptance is an ignus fatuus in philosophy.…”

So, yeah, one might call that a criticism.

Couple questions: — Bob Ross

Sure, but at the risk of detouring the thread topic? Up to you, of course; it’s you that called the meeting.

Moral obligation relative to interest, indicates the employment of practical reason in determining a willed volition. That obligation relative to an interest in a principle, then, indicates practical reason determine a willed volition in accordance with the subjective disposition of the moral agent himself. A principle in a moral agent that accords with his subjective disposition, is called a maxim. The point being, to eliminate outside influence with respect to moral considerations in general.

Taste, on the other hand, represented by aesthetic judgement, indicates merely a desire, which is always relative to sensation, re: attainment of that which corresponds to, and thereby satisfies, a desire, which in turn is always influenced from outside. Influenced from outside eliminates employment of practical reason, without which there is no proper moral consideration.

Morally speaking, acts willed according to good principles are more powerful than acts willed by mere good feelings.
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What are you semantically distinguishing with "shall" vs. "should desire"? — Bob Ross

Dunno about semantically. I positively detest, and refuse to engage in, so-called “language games”.

Shall indicates a command of reason offering no alternatives; should desire indicates a conditional want which implies a plethora of alternative inclinations.
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……there would be facts of the matter about morality that society could strive towards independently of tastes….. — Bob Ross

There would be facts of the matter about ethics that society could strive toward, re: administrative codes.
(independent of taste: hey, you wanna speed through a marked-off school zone, go right ahead. Makes no difference to me)

Personally, I think as soon as society enters the conversation, morality becomes group morality writ large, which is ethics. So maybe there is a form of realism in society, but it isn’t moral as much as ethical, realism. I mean, it is documented, e.g., that the speed limit in a school zone is 15mph, which seems pretty factual.

Anyway….obviously I survived 6 days in the bush. She with the whistle and spray, me with the .44. No need for either and good times for all.

We know nothing better than we know our own will. If the world is will, then there is nothing we couldn’t know about the world. Kant’s “epistemic limitation” disappears.

While it may indeed be a credible philosophy on its own, it is an altogether illegitimate transfer of conceptual correspondence when juxtaposed to Kant.

Are you agreeing that moral obligations begin with tastes, but that one should desire to abide by some set of categorical imperatives? — Bob Ross

Negative on both. Moral obligations begin with interest in a principle, and one SHALL, not merely SHOULD DESIRE to, abide by a categorical imperative the principle determines….in order to declare himself an moral agent that is worthy of his happiness.

Heading into the bush for a few days; not sure of cell coverage, so…. forewarned.

…..so there's at least two ways we might read a text…. — Moliere

….and both are no more than mere experience. Philosophy is a system, and a system is not an experience, even if all experience is by means of it.

IknowIknowIknow….I’m in the minority set, which I make up for by being boisterous about it. (Grin)

….we can never really get away from doing philosophy. — GRWelsh

Same as it ever was, huh?

“…. Human reason has never wanted a metaphysic of some kind, since it attained the power of thought, or rather of reflection; but it has never been able to keep this sphere of thought and cognition pure from all admixture of foreign elements. The idea of a science of this kind is as old as speculation itself; and what mind does not speculate—either in the scholastic or in the popular fashion?….”

While I agree morality is a covenant, I reject morality as having any connection with religion, insofar as the covenant holds with one’s self alone. If one acts in disrespect of the will of a god and its laws, he is a sinner; if one acts in disrespect of his own predisposed values that manifest in his will and its laws, he is immoral. A sinner dishonors his god but may not consider himself as dishonored; an immoral agent cannot escape the dishonor of himself.

And, yeah, always best to avoid the devil.

So we likely have different cognitive faculties working in different domains of life, with one that overlaps on both of them, the notion of "truth". — Manuel

I can see that. Technically, we might say one is the aesthetic domain, one is the discursive domain, truth overlapping both, from pure practical reason in the first, pure speculative reason in the second. In the first, the truth is in the form of subjective principles called maxims, in accordance with laws of the will, in the second truth is the correspondence of cognition with its object in accordance with mere rules of the understanding.

General Relativity is, once established, considerably easier to verify. — Manuel

Considerably easier to verify, but not going to be ever entirely proven by direct experience. I mean….what’s the chance of attaining the SOL or entering a black hole? That’s where the equations lead, right? Gotta do the extremes in order to nullify the principle of induction. The Twins Paradox, however, witnessing that is within reach here pretty soon, I bet.

Tell me a little about Sellar’s Images? And how it relates?

Fun times at ridgemont high.

And where are such principles to be sought? — Quixodian

You have the searchable CPR, so for your own sake, check out “Of Reason in General”, around A299/B356 or so. For your own sake because I probably won’t explain it worth a damn.

Briefly and hopefully somewhat coherently, principles are to be sought in reason rather than understanding, because principles, while synthetic cognitions a priori, do not apply directly to experience as understanding does in the unity of phenomena according to rules. The point being to distinguish a cognition employed as a principle, which understanding can do, from a cognition that is a principle, which it cannot. In the Kantian tripartite logical system, sequentially understanding, judgement, reason, and, synthetic a priori cognitions barred from either of the first two, and at the same time being absolutely necessary for syllogistic reasoning, reason is the only faculty capable of them, and makes them the criteria for being principles.

Thanks for not asking what they are. Dodged a serious bullet right there, no doubt.

Shall we start over? I inject moral as a qualifier for obligation, because the topic is concerned with moral facts. I thought to continue the moral condition, but that’s not actually what you asked for regarding obligation in and of itself.

My bad.

take into account what are the cognitive conditions such that we can establish such a category as "truth" and be somewhat confident it is correct. — Manuel

That’s kinda the whole can of worms, innit? We’re going to bother with establishing a category, calling it “truth”, demand a certainty from it….then only be somewhat confident in it? Nahhhh….I want my truth indisputable, at least at the time I determine it, and from the same system from whence it came. If your truth is better than mine, on the other hand, then I got a whole different set of problems.

But that we are able to establish truth…..is…very trivial — Manuel

Absolutely. We do it all the time without ever granting to ourselves the very power by which it is done. Apparently, we’re satisfied understanding no truth from empirical conditions is at all possible, thereby no truth at all is possible. Which is catastrophic in itself, for in such case, there is no legitimate reason to attribute moral agency to humanity in general.

As for one theory over another….parsimony? Whichever has initial exposure? Whichever has prevalent exposure? And I agree no one theory can explain it all, but…ahem…..there is one theory that lays the groundwork for where to start.

Oh. And thanks for being so kind. Most of the time I get, or most of the time I’m more apt to get, you’re so full of shit there’s no way your eyes can’t be brown. (Chuckles to self…they’re not. Neither of ‘em)

I welcome your learned steerage.

Kant, Lectures on Logic — Quixodian

Gotta be careful here. The nominal definition of truth, indicating merely an example of what may be a truth, is not the same as the logical criteria indicating what truth itself must be. What is true is not the same as what is truth, insofar as the former presupposes the latter. This shouldn’t be, and probably isn’t, the least contentious.

The key here is “compare the object with my cognition”, which makes explicit the object being compared is the perceived object, re: the “object outside me”. On the other hand, the agreement of a cognition with its object, is a product of understanding, for as empirical cognition necessarily follows from the perceived object, it is never of it.

And what of principles, which are necessary truths proven post hoc by but not derivatives of, empirical cognitions?

The problem here is enormous for some monistic metaphysics, re: Leibniz, in that experience alone can never give the answer to what is truth, but logic alone can never give the answer to what is true, and any theoretical doctrine which attempts to dismiss the rational a priori/empirical a posteriori dualism must overcome this problem. Or, typically post-modern, pretend there isn’t one.

Not that important; just sayin’……

Ok, but why are desires not simply synonymous with tastes?

Moral obligation: that interest of will, by which the worthiness of being happy is justified.