Thanks for sharing your thoughts about Javi's post. Again, I understand that it was not his aim to have obvious philosophical content. I moved on from that to looking at how other creative threads/posts might be gathered together so that they can be easily accessed. But that seems to be of little concern.

As it stands it could've been a review in the Currently Reading thread, and thus Lounge — fdrake

The 'Currently Reading' thread is not in the Lounge, as I explained earlier. Jamal responded calling it an 'anomaly', giving historical reasons for it not being there.

Indeed, it seems funny to some that this and the Shoutbox are on the Main Page, despite 'philosophical content' not being their main focus or aim. I understand their attraction for the spirit of community. However, for me, it's problematic when it comes to fairness and consistent application of the rules. And differing ideas of what is philosophically valuable.

However, my questions re Philosophy of Creativity might be better posed in a separate thread, away from Feedback. A deeper discussion might be possible. However, right now I'm not up for starting or maintaining a thread.

Thank you :sparkle:

Thanks for the update and information about who can create new categories.

It would still be interesting to hear thoughts/considerations of The Philosophy of Creativity. For example, how it differs from Philosophy of Art. But I'll leave it here for now. At risk of a severe headache...

@fdrake - you're an Admin, I should have addressed questions to you.
Sorry :yikes:

What a great find :cool: Enjoy your break! :sparkle:

You guys :lol:

That's one reason I decided to step out of admin shoes. It's a philosophy, not an art, forum, and I don't feel I do enough philosophy on here now to justify being an admin. I remain a mod because I think I can still offer enough to the site to justify that. But we all need to recognize where we are and act accordingly. — Baden

Ah, I didn't realise you were no longer Admin or involved in any potential revision of Guidelines. People do admin all the time without having any expertise in the field - thinking NHS :wink: But, yeah, other reasons...

Glad you're still a mod! and relaxing into your creative spirit :party:

Good to hear from you!

...the forum is set up to prioritize philosophical content on the first page, so that means less-philosophical content may be put in the lounge. — Baden

Understood. However, as I have argued, creativity does have an important place in philosophy and should have a dedicated space.

To me, that's not a value judgement: "Less-philosophical" does not equal "worse" in a general sense, but logically it equates to a lower priority overall on a philosophy forum. Otherwise, we would need to redescribe / rename ourselves. — Baden

Well, I think giving it a lower priority is a value judgement. There's no need to change the name of the forum. That would be ridiculous.

For the literary event part, I think once a year makes it more special. However, I encourage creative activity year round. The "Get Creative" thread is part of that and anyone can write a short story any time and post it in the category set up for that. — Baden

OK, thanks. So, around December time? Looking forward to hearing more, later.
The 'Get Creative!' thread is only a small part along with the other parts. All well hidden in the Lounge/ Symposium. Most newcomers would be unaware of their existence. Even oldies haven't posted there for some time.

I've been thinking about where they might be gathered, sensibly, under a useful and accessible philosophy category.

Has anyone considered 'Philosophy of Creativity'? That would be a place where we could discuss the value of creativity (theory) AND also give expression to it (practice). Telling and Showing its worth. @Jamal, other mods, anyone?

Abstract
This is the opening chapter to The Philosophy of Creativity: New Essays. It argues that since creativity is such a significant aspect of the human experience, and since it raises a wealth of philosophical questions, it deserves much more attention than it currently receives in philosophy.

It also argues for the fruitfulness of interdisciplinary exchange, integrating philosophical insights with research in experimental psychology. Providing an overview of the field and of the subsequent essays in the volume, this chapter surveys issues such as the definition of creativity, the role of consciousness in the creative process, the role of the audience in the creation of art, the emergence of creativity through childhood pretense, whether great works of literature give us insight into human nature, whether a computer program can really be creative, whether creativity is a virtue, the difference between creativity in science and art, and whether creativity can be taught—both in general and within philosophy itself. — Academic.oup - The Philosophy of Creativity

Also, this: https://philosophyterms.com/philosophy-of-creativity/

Pleasantly surprised by this. Not what I was expecting in 'Feedback'.

I'm assuming 'The space with Michael' is written by you. Perhaps inspired by 2 of your posts - related to 'How might 'metaphysical imagination' be used?' in @Jack Cummins' thread 'How Surreal are Ideas?' where you spoke of being unwilling to share an extremely personal experience. Then managed to express this PTSD in another discussion: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/929238

The poem creatively encapsulates your story.

...But perhaps compressed within those few lines is something with an ability to show us a part of ourselves or the world that we hadn't previously recognized. — wonderer1

It reminded me of other creative writing by TPF members. And, annoyingly, I couldn't find them.
First, you need to sign in to see the category 'The Symposium', under this lies 'Short Stories'.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/40/short-stories

Here you will find @Jamal's sticky'Show Us Your Fiction!' and other stand-alone stories and ideas. The ones that stayed in my mind were: @Benkei's 'Letter from Oslo, @Tobias 'Eden by Night' and @Jack Cummins - 'Flash Fiction and Writing Prompts'

There was also an active Lounge thread - @Baden's 'Get Creative!' - but last post was 10 months ago.

And under another category'Article Submissions', I found my thread, started 6yrs ago! https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4858/critical-thinking-and-creativity-reading-and-writing/p1

I think it was here that @ArguingWAristotleTiff suggested the revival of the Short Stories Competition. Now, changed to 'Literary Event', including micro-stories and poems. With thought-provoking feedback and discussions. Pretty damned fab :fire:

Anyway, no wonder I'm having a sense of déjà vu!
I'm so impressed by the way Jamal, Baden and others created and encouraged space for creativity in a philosophy forum. The way it encouraged writing, reading and reflecting.

I addressed this Feedback thread to @Baden and also enquired about the 'Literary Event'. I'm not sure how to interpret his lack of response - or anything from other mods. Perhaps there was a team meeting behind the scenes...

Having the Symposium as a Main Category was a good idea. There, the Shoutbox is stickied and also appears Top of the Main Page. Like the Lounge, another chattering place for the community.
There's plenty opportunity for creativity but hell, the pieces are scattered all over the place...buried so deep to be invisible and even if read, later responses don't surface. Can't there be a dedicated place to bring this all together and be more accessible?

Just sayin'. I suppose I'm concerned that the enthusiasm for creative expression is dwindling. And that there is a return, a move back, to pure philosophy and strict ways of writing. Perhaps, I'm wrong and best to 'let it be'.

Let it Be - the Beatles

When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom
Let it be

And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom
Let it be

Let it be, let it be
A-let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom
Let it be
[...]
And when the night is cloudy
There is still a light that shines on me
Shine until tomorrow
Let it be

I don't think the link I provided earlier is the best source. Its focus mostly on the modern. There are no quotes from the ancient hedonists, e.g. Epicurus.

As for Plato's work about 'a wild drunken party where all the best philosophers gather to discuss the pleasures of love'. Well. Assuming this is the Symposium, this isn't a correct depiction. For sure, some drink would have been present, it's a banquet. However, I think Socrates - as the only philosopher present - encouraged other participants, eminent men to take turn in giving a series of speeches on eros. Each arguing their perspective, as in in a competition.

Epicurus taught that the point of all one’s actions was to attain pleasure (conceived of as tranquility) for oneself, and that this could be done by limiting one’s desires and by banishing the fear of the gods and of death. Epicurus’ gospel of freedom from fear proved to be quite popular, and communities of Epicureans flourished for centuries after his death. — IEP - Epicurus

So, a different connotation from the modern. He advocated a simple, moderate life. Excess leads to pain. Pleasure is the absence of troubles to mind and body.

Another of Plato's dialogues - the Philebus - is concerned with whether pleasure or reason and wisdom are the good.

Philebus and Protarchus are hedonists; they consider pleasure as the highest good and equate it with the absolute Good. Socrates represents the opposing view, prioritizing reason and insight. While he does not dispute the legitimacy and value of pleasure, he points out the diversity of pleasures and argues for a more nuanced assessment. — Wiki - Philebus

So, it is not a case of one or the other. It is the source of pleasure that counts. The life of the mind can give pleasure - as at TPF - working through the pain pricks as we try to understand.

I think reading the Symposium can provide an 'aesthetic experience' - being there a blast! :party:

My understanding is that Hedonism was the original Stoicism. — I like sushi

OK. You could also say that we are all hedonists but that doesn't preclude having a stoic attitude.
We can seek pleasure at the same time as seeing importance of wellbeing and ways to reach optimal state for self.

Historical relationships and influences:

During the Greek and Roman periods, hedonism was popular but controversial; many Greeks worshipped a god called Dionysus, the god of wine and pleasure. His festivals were crazy hedonistic parties with plenty of drinking, overeating, and reckless behavior. The traditional religious authorities permitted and in some cases encouraged this sort of hedonism. It even played a role in philosophy: one of Plato’s most famous works is all about a wild drunken party where all the best philosophers gather to discuss the pleasures of love.

Philosophy in the later Roman Empire was dominated by Stoicism, a philosophy with a complex relationship to hedonism. The Stoics are usually thought of as opposite to hedonists. They argued for rigorous discipline and control of the emotions; they were somewhat ascetics. But they also believed in training their minds to get pleasure out of behaving in a healthy and moral way. This strongly resembles Buddhism and many historians believe that Stoicism was influenced by the Greek contact with Buddhists in what is now Pakistan, where Buddhism ruled at that time. — Hedonism

More to say later...it's sunny out...:cool:

Edit:

How this relates to aesthetics though is something I feel is important but it has not registered properly in any rational sense. — I like sushi

Say more? Perhaps we need to talk to Plato (see above)...

I was thinking more along the lines of feeling passionate — I like sushi

Well, why didn't you say so! :roll: :smile: Will read later...

perhaps a stoic finds meaning in the understanding of works of art, whereas a hedonist finds meaning in being attracted, surprised, provoked etc by works of art. Therefore, it might matter for the hedonist whether a work is ugly or beautiful or at least interesting. — jkop

Perhaps. I don't know. There are so many different kinds of people attracted to different types of either system of belief. Does it help to know what philosophical Hedonism means ? 6 types identified here:
https://iep.utm.edu/hedonism/

Again, 'works of art' - creative expression of any type is meaningful for different reasons. It can cause pain or pleasure - Jeezy peeps, that hurts my eyes/ears - that blows my mind...God, thank you for the world in all its glory and challenges. I'll paint the roof in appreciation.

For me, an 'aesthetic appreciation' can be at any level and is not necessarily '-ism' dependent.
Usually, an understanding, deeper meaning comes after the immediate impact on the senses.

This can involve how 'passionate' we are about the object or our aims. A hedonist might simply aim to please self at the expense of others. A stoic might want to reign in the passions so as to live a balanced life. It depends.

:hearts:

Hi and thanks for response. Just when I thought I'd managed to escape!

Regarding:

...the category heading 'Philosophy of Art'. This seems to require the inclusion of a philosophical argument. — Amity

Jamal clarified this:

Aesthetics is cool. It comes under philosophy of art, and we have a category for that. There's no requirement for elaborate argumentation; there just has to be some philosophical meat. More than just a mention of an idea. — Jamal

So, how much philosophical meat is baked in the pie. The OP, apparently, needs to be justified as philosophy - its relevance for a particular category made clear.

I think philosophy of mind would be a perfectly legitimate category for a wide ranging discussion of how and why poetry affects us as it does, and what that can tell us about the nature of our minds. What is special about the ways that we can use poetry to communicate with each other? — wonderer1

Yeah, well. I think poetry, or poetic expression, could probably fit into any category dealing with the human body, mind and soul. Interactions at any level. It's not boxed in, is it?

***

Aesthetics - the aesthetic mind - holds its fascinations. There's been plenty written about it:

5 Aspects of the Aesthetic Mind: Exploring its Meaning and Significance - Renee Speaking
https://reneespeaking.com/aesthetic-mind-meaning/

The Aesthetic Mind - Hardback - Elisabeth Schellekens, Peter Goldie - Oxford University Press

The Aesthetic Mind breaks new ground in bringing together empirical sciences and philosophy to enhance our understanding of aesthetics and the experience of art.

An eminent international team of experts presents new research in philosophy, psychology, neuroscience, and social anthropology: they explore the roles of emotion, imagination, empathy, and beauty in this realm of human experience, ranging over visual and literary art, music, and dance.

Among the questions discussed are: Why do we engage with things aesthetically and why do we create art? Does art or aesthetic experience have a function or functions? Which characteristics distinguish aesthetic mental states? Which skills or abilities do we put to use when we engage aesthetically with an object and how does that compare with non-aesthetic experiences? What does our ability to create art and engage aesthetically with things tell us about what it is to be a human being?

***

At first I didn't get, and was a bit put off by, Rorty's use of "compression" in referring to poetry...

...But perhaps compressed within those few lines is something with an ability to show us a part of ourselves or the world that we hadn't previously recognized. — wonderer1

Yes, it could well be that. Or written by a creative someone moved by an experience but who can't be arsed writing a complete descriptive essay. A magical encapsulation. Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket. An emptying of a rhythmic, chiming mind.

That being said,
this is just something that popped into my head,
and not feeling sufficiently well read,
I doubt I'll write that OP before I am dead — wonderer1

An OP I will never write
Too much trouble
Too much strife :monkey:

Take pleasure in it while you have the chance, for a storm is brewing on yonder horizon. — Jamal

Twas ever thus. Life and an appreciation of it goes on. No matter the weather. Cheers :sparkle:

OK. I give up. You're the boss. Now out to enjoy the sun :cool:

Javi, I understand well what your aims were. There was no need to repeat. However, your thread was a starting point. For me, it led to other questions re the separation of Art and Philosophy - Creative v Argumentative. I think that there is a problem with how threads related to poetry are not given their place. But it seems I'm hitting my head against a brick wall. No matter...some things never change...

I really appreciate how you value my thread, Amity. But you—and I—need to understand that the forum has standards and all. — javi2541997

That goes without saying.

I found this on 'Aesthetics': https://www.britannica.com/topic/aesthetics
Stoicism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

As far as I understand, aesthetic appreciation is open to all humans, no matter their ideology. It's a synthesis of sense and intellect. We look, see, feel and judge works of art or nature, no matter whether they are ugly or beautiful.

An interesting OP. Much more can be said :smile:

My aim is not even debate with others but trying to read more poems that can make me feel that 'unbearable nostalgia' that Kundera referred to in his novel.
Poetry may have a bit of philosophical content per se, but I mainly focused on nostalgic poems. These have a lot of art but not philosophical content. If I feel nostalgia reading a poem it is just a personal emotion of mine that escapes from rational thinking... — javi2541997

I've re-read this, especially the part I underlined. It seems that the problem might lie in the category heading 'Philosophy of Art'. This seems to require the inclusion of a philosophical argument. I can understand the reluctance and difficulty of placing your thread there. And as much as 'The Lounge' is an interesting hang-out for blethers, your thread - and similar - deserves more than that, in my opinion.

I can't remember but I think I mentioned the category of 'Aesthetics' earlier. This too has its problems and paradoxes but I think it is broader and can include the 'emotions' and experience of ' nostalgia' you find in the contemplation of poems.

***

It's difficult to know where it would best fit. The PoA category has a variety of threads. Some I noted with titles like 'Beautiful Structures' or 'Beautiful Things' are not of the argumentative type.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2678/beautiful-things/p1
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3112/beautiful-structures/p1

So, if not there, where else would you suggest? — Amity

@Jamal et al - I'd be interested to hear your views on using 'Aesthetics' as a category or sub-category? It seems broader in scope with non-argumentative approaches as to what we find beautiful and valuable in human experience. Also, our aesthetic experience, response or attitude to works of art, including objects and nature.

I haven't delved into the intricacies of Aesthetics but I found this substantive and helpful article.
A few excerpts from: https://www.britannica.com/topic/aesthetics

Recent work in aesthetics, to some extent inspired by the seminal writings of Sartre and Wittgenstein, has devoted considerable attention to the study of creative imagination. The hope has been to provide the extra ingredient in aesthetic experience that bridges the gap between the sensory and the intellectual and at the same time shows the relation between aesthetic experience and the experience of everyday life—an enterprise that is in turn of the first importance for any study that seeks to describe the moral significance of beauty. [...]

...it is not only art that stirs our emotions in the act of aesthetic attention: the same is or may be true of natural beauty, whether that of a face or of a landscape. These things hold our attention partly because they address themselves to our feelings and call forth a response which we value both for itself and for the consolation that we may attain through it. Thus we find an important philosophical tradition according to which the distinctive character of aesthetic experience is to be found in distinctively “aesthetic” emotions. — Britannica - Aesthetics

Really? Fascinating as this is, we're now taking it well beyond Feedback.
I think you know that, bad boy. :brow:

As to the scope of this thread, from the OP:

I fully consider poetry as a topic of philosophy.
— Amity

As with many threads the scope expands. I am addressing your attack on and what I take to be your misunderstanding of this little piece by Rorty. — Fooloso4

Yes indeed. To clarify, the quote is from javi in reply to me. Sorry, I didn't format our conversation as clearly as I should have. Now edited. It was the first part of the OP.

Your clear, civil and intelligent explanations have helped consolidate my understanding. They provide a stark contrast to the personal attack made against Rorty in one of his final reflections.

Time to let it go, now, I think. Thanks to all :sparkle:

Thank you. You raised interesting questions and I've enjoyed the discussion here :sparkle:

Anyway, the germ of some possible philosophical content in the OP is probably this bit:

that's precisely what I feel when I read poems: Unbearable nostalgia
— javi2541997

If Javi had made a brief argument as to how and why this is an important part of the appreciation of literature, that would have been enough to make it belong unambiguously on the main page, in my opinion. — Jamal

I'm returning to this with an apology to @javi2541997 if I've made this too personal and critical. I've enjoyed very much participating in his thoughtful and engaging thread. Thank you :sparkle:

I still think that it has 'philosophical content'. I disagree about the requirement for an 'argument'.

Framing it in terms of how it fits into an appreciation of literature shifts focus away from the concept and sense of 'unbearable nostalgia'; how it can be shown via poetry and reflection.
This can help us understand the human experience. This is achieved as it stands, with no argument.
'Philosophical content' lies in the poems with experience and thoughts intertwining. The impact and compact nature of verse can speak for itself. For some.

***

Richard Rorty - dying from pancreatic cancer - picked out a few poems from memory:

Lines of Swinburne's "Garden of  Proserpine":

We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

and Landor's "On His Seventy-Fifth Birthday":

Nature I loved, and next to Nature, Art;
I warmed both hands before the fire of life,
It sinks, and I am ready to depart.

I found comfort in those slow meanders and those stuttering embers. I suspect that no comparable effect could have been produced by prose. Not just imagery, but also rhyme and rhythm were needed to do the job. In lines such as these, all three conspire to produce a degree of compression, and thus of  impact, that only verse can achieve.
— Poetry Foundation - The Fire of Life

Interesting to consider how the dying might turn to poetry to find comfort. Rorty's comment about giving it more attention might remind some of Socrates' turn to verse before his death.

Here's one I like: "The Full Heart" by Robert Nichols (1893-1944) — Vera Mont

Lovely and sounds like an 'old friend', not one you had to go seek out. Do you try to memorise poems?
'Alone on the shore in the pause of the night time - I stand and I hear...'

It's a time to appreciate what I've had* and come to term with all that's left undone.
*Not a poem; a song. The iconic Louis and Ella. — Vera Mont

Yes, there comes a time...in the bitter-sweet journey from birth to death. We all share. We are not so very 'alone' in thinking these thoughts. Although it certainly seems so at times. Poetry or songs can help.

I don't know if this is the song you mean but I'll play it anyway. Lean back and listen or sing along... :cool:

f I recall correctly, I started it because there had been one on the old forum, and if anyone else had done it that would've also been fine. — Jamal

Understood. Back at the start...but now things have changed. Anyway, I'm moving on. It's been good to talk and gain other points of view. Thanks :sparkle:

It certainly would be if explicated and developed, because it's a good thought. — Jamal

I agree. It was a promising start. Unfulfilled.

It's because it's non-theoretical that it probably doesn't belong in a philosophy category. — Jamal

'Theoretical' was a bad choice of words on my part - I meant 'argumentative'.
Philosophy includes 'intellectual conversation' - as per Rorty above - no? It's not always about theories and debate. But hey, I agree, the thread is nothing more than a sharing of poems.

Yes, that thread is something of an anomaly, though I'm happy with where it is. — Jamal

Yeah. I wonder why :chin: :razz:
If started by anyone else other than the site owner, then it 'probably' would have been moved!
The privilege of power, huh?! :smile:

It probably doesn't fit in Philosophy of Art, but I might not have moved it to the Lounge if it had been placed there originally, because I just like to see threads about art, literature, etc. — Jamal

Yes. I understand. It's difficult to know where it would best fit. The PoA category has a variety of threads. Some I noted with titles like 'Beautiful Structures' or 'Beautiful Things' are not of the argumentative type.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2678/beautiful-things/p1
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3112/beautiful-structures/p1
So, if not there, where else would you suggest?

If Javi had made a brief argument as to how and why this is an important part of the appreciation of literature, that would have been enough to make it belong unambiguously on the main page, in my opinion. — Jamal

Yes, but I think he wasn't in that theoretical frame of mind. He primarily just wanted to share poems, thoughts or recommendations - just as he does in the Main Page 'Currently Reading' thread.

From his OP:

After reading a poem, Kundera, as a narrator of the story, says: The purpose of the poetry is not to dazzle with an astonishing thought, but to make one moment of existence unforgettable and worthy of unbearable nostalgia.

Isn't that 'philosophical' enough? It could have led to more...but hey, that was up to @javi2541997 and I need to accept that...I suppose :sparkle:

I have no problem with it being in a corner I visit regularly, rather than being buries in Philosophy of Art, which can get ponderous and pretentious at times. — Vera Mont

Understood :smile: I agree that the very heading PoA can be off-putting! However, if this discussion was placed there then it would appear on the Main Page and not be 'buried'. It would be more obvious and accessible. PoA includes all kinds of interesting threads, not only the heavier questions as to what constitutes Art or Beauty. Moving on...

From the useful Feedback discussion, a post by @Tom Storm led me to the philosopher, Richard Rorty. In the last stage of pancreatic cancer, he talks of his regrets - wishing he'd spent more time with verse. He shared his comforting friends, pieces of poetry, from memory:

"Hasn't anything you've read been of any use?" my son persisted. "Yes," I found myself blurting out, "poetry." "Which poems?" he asked. I quoted two old chestnuts that I had recently dredged up from memory and been oddly cheered by, the most quoted lines of Swinburne's "Garden of  Proserpine":


We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.


and Landor's "On His Seventy-Fifth Birthday":

Nature I loved, and next to Nature, Art;
I warmed both hands before the fire of life,
It sinks, and I am ready to depart.


I found comfort in those slow meanders and those stuttering embers. I suspect that no comparable effect could have been produced by prose. Not just imagery, but also rhyme and rhythm were needed to do the job. In lines such as these, all three conspire to produce a degree of compression, and thus of  impact, that only verse can achieve. — Poetry Foundation - Rorty's 'The Fire of Life'

Richard Rorty said that 'the purpose of philosophy is not to discover timeless truths, but rather to provide better ways of living and understanding.' This opens things up. Philsophy seems to be one of those subjects where the framing is wide or narrow depending upon one's biases. — Tom Storm

I haven't read much, if anything, by Richard Rorty. However, I find myself in agreement with the quote. Looking further at the role and aim of philosophy:

Because Rorty did not believe in certainty or absolute truth, he did not advocate the philosophical pursuit of such things.

Instead, he believed that the role of philosophy is to conduct an intellectual “conversation” between contrasting but equally valid forms of intellectual inquiry—including science, literature, politics, religion, and many others—with the aim of achieving mutual understanding and resolving conflicts. — Britannica - Richard Rorty

[my bolds]

Yes. It does depend on what you think philosophy is about. I prefer the broader, more expansive outlook, so as to appreciate and enjoy a fuller life. TPF does provide that opportunity and I think its inclusion of more literature, e.g. the 'Short Story and Poetry' events, says much for it. Not sure whether that is continuing... @Baden?
Nevertheless, its Guidelines still seem to privilege a certain form and style of philosophical writing i.e. argumentative. Perhaps I'm wrong...

Here is a short and famous piece he wrote on poetry and philosophy.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/articles/68949/the-fire-of-life — Tom Storm

This is beautiful and so sad given that it took imminent death to realise that he wished he'd spent more of his life with verse. To live more fully. He said that his thoughts hadn't turned to religion or philosophy (even his own) but what had been of use and comfort was 'Poetry'. When 'memories are amply stocked with verses' it's like having close friends nearby.

I appreciate this and now keen to know more about his philosophy. I think it must have provided sustenance to him and others as a way of looking at life. Perhaps it is written poetically?

Thank you, Tom, for a meaningful post :sparkle:

Thank you both for your interesting thoughts and opinions.

That isn't the point. We can learn 'interesting things' anywhere in TPF.
But I'm done. Spent enough time here. Thanks.

OK. To provide even more specific context - 'Hanging out' as related to your OP's final paragraph.

Since I am very sentient to these poems, I ask you if you know anything similar to them, and I will very much appreciate it if you want to join me this windy Friday in Madrid to read nostalgic poems and drink sake.

This imagined setting made it more informal. In that respect more 'Lounge' material.

'Hang out' as per the category description of 'Lounge' Not my words!

Javi, you are more than capable of using google, online dictionaries to read the different meanings.

I often get stuck in thinking how to put discussions of ideas into categories. Part of the problem may be that there are complex interplays between the various aspects of philosophy, such as art, science and metaphysics. There are divisions but they are far from absolute. — Jack Cummins

Yes, thanks. I was thinking of deleting this thread because of a strong sense of déjà vu. I've been here before and it's made little difference. Nobody is all that bothered. I agree it's difficult but not impossible. You seem to manage just fine! :smile:

Under 'Categories':
1. The Lounge - Hang out, blether, talk about kittens
2. General Philosophy - It's philosophy but it doesn't fit any of the specialisms
3. Philosophy of Art - Visual art, literature, music, etc. What makes something a work of art? Is there more to artistic taste than personal preference? What makes music meaningful?

As regards to the lounge, my own understanding is that it allows for discussion which is slightly off key from philosophy itself. All in all, let's hope that it allows for the broadest discussion of philosophy. — Jack Cummins

The Lounge: News, politics, cultural - sharing what we are currently listening to (music) and watching (TV/films) but not what we are reading. The latter is placed under 'Learning Centre > Books and Papers. This means it is privileged to be a Main Page thread.
Other more specific threads like @javi2541997's - may well be characterised as 'hanging out' but blethering about pussy cats? Come on!

Even though there are categories, I am glad that these don't show up on the front page. — Jack Cummins

Yes, it's not in-your-face obvious but you can hover over the title and a box will appear showing the category. Your 'How 'Surreal' are Ideas?' > General Philosophy; 'Tragedy or Pleasure'> Philosophy of Art.

The philosophy of the arts may be seen as of lesser importance than that of the sciences. I see this as extremely problematic and hope that the way in which all of the categories show up on the front page allows for as little bias as possible in multidisciplinary thinking on this site. — Jack Cummins

I think the main difference, for me, is between a narrow or re/stricted definition of 'philosophy' with a preference for logical/rational argumentation (a prescribed way of writing an OP) and those with a looser way of exploring thoughts and where they might lead (creative).
And that's fine, right up until a judgement call (by posters/mods) to dismiss the importance of the latter, move to the Lounge, before the ideas can even percolate. Why the rush? What difference does it make when they can be placed/ kept in 'General Discussion' at the very least.

I think I've said more than enough. Making a mountain out of a molehill. I never learn :roll:

The words from city and country spoken as if to us in particular. — Paine

How lovely to have shared that feeling and thoughts arising. I hadn't even heard of him - so grateful your words about 'the rhythm of 'American' English' led me to the sounds. Lately, I'm finding audio can make all the difference :cool:

Perhaps that harks back to original story-telling - the oral tradition of the ancients and mothers :wink: Nostalgia?

Of course, the Lounge seems open to all and everything!
In my 'corner', I admit to having a bit of a bee in my bonnet about poetry being seen as separate from philosophy. And of less worth. I'll leave it now.

Edit to add:

I still believe that it doesn't have philosophical content, — javi2541997

It does. Arguably, even more than the Main Page 'Currently Reading' thread!

I am not the one who wrote the rules of this forum. :sweat:

I fully consider poetry as a topic of philosophy. But, according to the rules, I think I would have to write the thread in a different manner — javi2541997

I had a look at the 'Site Guidelines' and see what you mean. Perhaps, this is better discussed in 'Feedback'?

If I had tried to place the thread on the main page, I guess the moderators would have placed it in The Lounge, anyway. — javi2541997

I think you could have placed it under 'Philosophy of Art' without any objections. But who knows? Even that is debatable. I'll move this to 'Feedback' so as not to derail your thread!

I guess it doesn't have as much philosophical content as the ones on the main page. So, I decided to place it in The Lounge. — javi2541997

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'philosophical content' :roll:
I used the search box to find other threads related to poems and poetry. Under 'Philosophy of Art': @Moliere's https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13562/poem-meaning/p1

Remember your words there?:

Poems are an artistic representation of ourselves through words. I enjoyed reading the poem of the picture of your OP. I interpret it as the beautiful essence of a normal day. Where everything happens as is used to be. Fortunately, there is nothing what can disturb our serene day.

Verses make different emotions on people. I am against all of those who are rigid towards interpreting a poem. There isn’t anyone clever than other in terms of experiencing poetry. I want share another poem with you:

[He] said:
“the sea used to come here”
And and [he] put more wood on the fire. Ozaki Hōsai.

This haiku poem gives me nostalgia because the author is missing something that is no longer with him: the sea.

Sharing poems for their 'unbearable nostalgia' - I would argue that this does have 'philosophical content' and involve reflection and expressing thoughts about self, life and the world (philosophy). Even to consider what makes them 'unbearable'. It lies in the meaning we bring or give to them, no?

Family is always a key aspect in poetry. — javi2541997

And this can be extended from the nuclear family to that of the world. Perhaps consider the 'unbearable nostalgia' from the perspective of ecology. There is not only a distancing in family relationships but also that of people from nature. Merwin sees the consequences of this alienation as disastrous.

I haven't watched all of this yet but putting it here, for later...

National Poet Laureate W.S. Merwin reads his poems and talks of caring for the Earth

Whether planting trees or tending endangered species, concern for the environment permeates all Merwin's writings -- prose, poetry or translation. Merwin sits casually in his blue jeans, and talks of the environment and villanelles. He reads five poems from The Rain in the Trees ("Late Spring," "West Wall" and "The Solstice") and two from his latest volume, Travels, ("Witness" and "Place").

***
Analysis of 'Yesterday' here: https://poemanalysis.com/w-s-merwin/yesterday/

Since I am very sentient to these poems, I ask you if you know anything similar to them, and I will very much appreciate it if you want to join me this windy Friday in Madrid to read nostalgic poems and drink sake. — javi2541997

Sorry, I couldn't make it! I hope you weren't drowning in sake sorrows?
We've met before to discuss poetry and I seem to remember sharing Goethe's poem in German as well as English. In audio, the former sounding better. I'm now feeling a sense of nostalgia but not the unbearable kind!

After reading a poem, Kundera, as a narrator of the story, says: The purpose of the poetry is not to dazzle with an astonishing thought, but to make one moment of existence unforgettable and worthy of unbearable nostalgia. — javi2541997

Well, the purpose of poetry is, of course, debatable. Edit - I misread. K. is referring to 'the' poetry.
Just as in Kundera's novel, I think being part of a reading/listening group selecting poems can be wonderful and enlightening. Thank you :sparkle:

An aside:
[Just as sharing what books you are reading. That is a Main Page discussion not moved to the side Lounge, as this has been! Would a poetry thread not be better placed and appreciated under another main category? Philosophy of Art? Aesthetics?]

The rhythm of 'American' English is key to the evocation. — Paine

'Poetry always begins and ends with listening.' W.S. Merwin reads his poem: