While you see that they were suddenly banned one day, what you didn't see was likely the weeks and/or months of repeated warnings, requests, and second, third, etc. chances that were repeatedly ignored by the poster. — Philosophim

Is that what happened in e.g. the last banning?

To better understand the system, what happens, particularly so with long time posters, is that a complaint is made, or a mod notices a problem, and we then read through the poster's comments and try to contextualize it. — Hanover

One last thing.
If there are specific steps in the 'Banning' procedure, is this made clear to the member concerned?

The person's response matters. We're not looking for groveling or even an apology, but really just an assurance the problem is taken care of. — Hanover

Is there a set period of time between the steps?
If not already in place, I think a slow progression might be what is required.

I'm not sure if the Banning procedure is stickied anywhere.
All the better for the sake of transparency and then there would be no need for a thread like this one.

Thank you, Hanover, for taking the time to clarify the process.

So, the best we can do is to be fair when modding, listening to the other mods, and being as transparent as we can, which is what hopefully threads like this do. — Hanover

Indeed. That's all anyone can do. Their best :100:

There's one exception I would probably be vocal in advocating for...

Heat of battle passion, when there is an active and ongoing global military conflict and the person is a relevant stakeholder in one or more sides and is thus no longer operating (arguing) from a reasonable and logical mindset as is intended for this forum, but is instead operating from fight or flight adrenaline and emotion as their life and everything and everyone in it could be severely impacted or killed as a result of said conflict being discussed.

That's what this last one was about, wasn't it? — Outlander

No. The last banning concerned another thread.

However, I believe the 'Ukraine Crisis' discussion was the start of the personal escalation between members who invested a lot of their time and energy there. I'll say no more on the subject.

Not sure what a 'progressive banning' would look like :chin:

Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts.
I think the label 'Banned' has negative connotations and effects.

...it is healthy for the forum to not treat with privilige "long-term users" because that would be unfair. — javi2541997

It is not about giving privilege to long-term members but weighing up years of steady commitment against a particular episode of escalation that might have been handled better on both sides.
After a period of calm reflection in 'suspension'.

But I've said enough already.
Time up :sparkle:

Thanks to you and others for your considered thoughts and responses.
Later... :flower:

Edit:

It would be better to find a neutral term - "account closed" — unenlightened

Yes. But I think that could also apply to those accounts closed voluntarily by members.
I think that term much better than e.g. 'deletedmemberbcc'. Apparently @busycuttingcrap's decision to cut his time short as member/moderator?
'Deletedmember' - sounds painful :scream:

And there are other forums to go to. — Bylaw

Yes there are. But long-term posters have built up a body of discussions/comments and have been part of a community. TPF is the best of the bunch in my opinion.

It would be the staining of the character of a made up name that a person has on a philosophy forum whose members can be from anywhere in the world. I don't think this is a real concern. — Bylaw

It is only a concern when it is related to the 'status' of a forum member.
If you see the label 'Banned' on someone's profile, what is your first impression?
Unworthy of being read or thoughts considered?

A NUMBER of banned members come back with a different identity (all they need is a different email address) and then later they get banned again for the SAME MISDEMEANORS as before. — god must be atheist

Yes. Some do that. Others who are not of that ilk do not.

However, I think it is quite unjust to permanently ban a long-term poster who has contributed well and evenly for most of their TPF travels.
— Amity

These members don't get banned. — god must be atheist

Yes they do.

This is the reason I think it's futile to bring back banned members. — god must be atheist

It's not about bringing back banned members but re-imagining a better justice system.
Perhaps that's too difficult...

This is me last life mateys! — Agent Smith

Hopefully not. Take care :pray:

In TPF, is banning always permanent?! — neomac

There have been a few exceptions in the past. But mostly yes.

You make good points.
As I've said before, out of 3 philo forums I've frequented, TPF is the best.
There is always room for change and improvement.
Admin and team do an exceptional job. Listening and responding with care to any feedback/suggestions.
:clap: :sparkle:

Time out for a re-think and for calm to prevail.
— Amity

Sounds more suitable for kindergarten than a grown up discussion. — unenlightened

It would seem like it. But is it ageism to think that way?
You don't think adults need time out from an escalation of conflict?
It's about prevention of a downward spiral in relationships where arguing is destructive.
You would think that would be possible or even desirable in a philosophy forum.
To reflect and be more constructive.

If you are thinking about justice, I would suggest you are misconstruing the situation. — unenlightened

No, I am not.

It's not much fun moderating, and bans are no fun at all. Mods agonise over decent posters gone rogue, and even listen to criticism in threads like this. — unenlightened

Yes. Nobody is saying otherwise. However, I think that some judgements are questionable due to some bias creeping in. Even mods can have rogue moments in the heat of a to and fro.

Temporary bans have been tried, and found to be troublesome, possibly because they foster the idea that bans are a punishment that might be just or more likely unjust, rather than the site protecting its reputation and integrity. — unenlightened

When were they tried? What consituted 'temporary'?
Bans are indeed a punishment with varying degrees of 'crime' and individual levels of commitment and participation. One label to fit all. Unfair. In my opinion.
Why would this make temporary bans or a suspension 'troublesome'?

I appreciate the opportunity to talk things through.
However, I am under no illusion that it will make one iota of difference.
Will limit my replies accordingly.

Did Plato glorify the historical Socrates or himself?

I wondered about the difference between them, and found this:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Socrates/Socrates-versus-Plato

I haven't seen any other philosopher apart from Plato that utilizes any narrator or narration in their works. — Shawn

Well, I might be wrong about my previous comment with regard to continental's like Sarte or Camus. — Shawn

I don't know enough about other philosophers' use of narrators or how they promote their philosophy.
Interesting to consider though :up:

Yes. Plato keeps himself well out of the philosophical play. Nevertheless, he is most certainly there.
The invisible man pulling the strings...

I think you are right. Even if it doesn't come up as 'status' in the profile.
Used for less serious 'crimes' or wrong behaviour.

I agree with (platonist) Iris Murdoch's differentiation of philosophical texts and literary text, and the different implications for reading them (pardon if you're familiar with this video, I've posted it recently elsewhere)[...]
What do you think? — 180 Proof

Thanks, I missed that. I'll take time later to view and consider :up:

Maybe philosophy is a different kind of fiction. — Shawn

Maybe...part of our story-telling... :chin:

Thank you.
Extraordinary. An electrifying, unique interpretation by this 'guitarist's guitarist'.
He will be missed by many.

:hearts: :sparkle:

Reading the Dialogues as Fiction. Way to go, Plato :sparkle: — Amity

So, perhaps in that sense 'Socrates' was a martyr to Plato's cause.
— Amity
Yes, so says – dramatizes – Plato. Myth-making PR. :up: — 180 Proof

You once asked in the feedback of your Short Story 'Felice' why or how readers 'pegged you for the scribbler - style, plot, character, (peculiar) word choices, themes'.

The question stayed in my mind because I didn't really know how to answer it.
I think @Jamal mentioned your use of striking similes and metaphors.

I'm about to start a short course: 'How to Read a Novel'.
The study includes 4 books, each to be analysed for a certain aspect: Plot, Setting, Characterisation, and Dialogue. Possibly also specific literary techniques/tools...

I've been wondering how you and others read or would re-read any of Plato's Dialogues as literature.
For example: How to Read 'The Symposium'.

Are certain dialogues easier or more entertaining/educational than others?
For a beginner...perhaps the earlier?
What are the more challenging or 'deep'? Rewarding as both literature and philosophy.
How are the readers mystified by creative ambiguity? Other techniques to dramatise philosophy.

@Shawn - apologies for going off-topic. However, I think this might interest you too?

:up:

The Greek term is transliterated "poetry". The root of the word poiesis means to make. Here it is the making of images in words. It connotes both the image of the philosopher Socrates and the philosopher as an image maker. [...] — Fooloso4

Thanks for this.
As usual, your thoughts and quotes spark even more questions and ideas.
I'm taking time out now for 4 weeks. Glad to see you picking up your pen, again :sparkle:
Almost a Pavlovian response to Plato?!

I find Depeche Mode to be a wonderful band. The whole era of electric eighties, including some of the darker stuff is loved by many. — Jack Cummins

Good to know. I never really listened to this or them before.
I just wanted a song that screamed out ''Wrong!''
I guess it comes from a place of anger...rather than sweetness and light :wink:

Depeche Mode - Wrong (Official Video)

For @Olivier5
Missing you :broken:
Enjoy the freedom to be who and where you are :sparkle:

Nina Simone - Feeling good

This is somewhat unsettling; but, definitionally Socrates was a martyr. He died for corrupting the youth in Athens, Greece, according to the charges that were leveled upon him.

Would you label Socrates as a martyr, and is that label deserved? — Shawn

You raise interesting questions about how we think of Socrates.
What we know of him comes mainly via Plato.
From what I remember, I think his earlier Dialogues are stories of the historical figure Socrates, then it seems he used him in a more fictional way.

Socrates constantly questioned the societal and political values; he was seen as a threat to the status quo. So much so that he was eventually put on trial for corrupting the youth and for impiety i.e. not worshipping the correct Gods.

As can be seen, there are umpteen variations on a theme. Different interpretations of the dialogues.
So, perhaps in that sense 'Socrates' was a martyr to Plato's cause. Which was what?

To firmly establish and maintain the importance of philosophy?
What kind of philosophy?

The kind that questions our beliefs, assumptions and considers different ways of thinking.
How was this shown to us?
From Plato, we read of Socrates and his debates with other characters...introducing 'Dangerous Ideas'.

How do we know if what we read is true?

The Socratic Dialogues are stories. Fiction. What do we take as 'truth'?
Is it true that:

Cicero said:

Socrates was the first to call philosophy down from the heavens and to place it in cities, and even to introduce it into homes and compel it to inquire about life and standards and goods and evils.
(Tusculan Disputations V 10–11)

Socrates was the first political philosopher. His concern was how we ought to live. And this includes how we ought to die. His was not the death of a martyr but the death of a philosopher.

It was left to the youth he "corrupted" to figure out how to bring into harmony the tension between philosophy and the city. As Nietzsche says:

THE REAL PHILOSOPHERS, HOWEVER, ARE COMMANDERS AND LAW-GIVERS; they say: "Thus SHALL it be!
(BGE,211) — Fooloso4

As such, it doesn't matter what label we attach to Socrates.
What matters is the effect of the stories on how we live; what we love and why we think the way we do.
It's about coming to know ourselves; learning how to do that...perhaps to find some kind of harmony between our passions and reason. Or to disturb the peace of our self-satisfied slumbers.

Reading the Dialogues as Fiction. Way to go, Plato :sparkle:

Had forgotten that exchange! — Wayfarer

Well, you're forgiven, just :wink:
It was 2 years ago...

You all talk about this like Olivier5 isn't coming roaring back as @Olive5... — Changeling

Most unlikely. Even if he did, that would be an instant re-ban.

Oh.. :sad:

I for one will be enjoying a few drinks and perusing his past works. — Outlander

I too celebrate what Olivier brought to TPF.
It's good that any banned poster's comments can be read.
It can put any judgements/decisions into perspective.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/profile/comments/7108/olivier5

I know it. Keep up the good work :up:

Shame, I found him congenial enough, never really had reason to argue with him (but then I now try and keep away from threads that are tending towards flame wars.) — Wayfarer

Hi Wayfarer and Welcome Back :sparkle:
@Olivier5 was a good all-rounder. He appreciated you and your creativity; including songwriting.
He posted your 'The Reason Why' in his 'Deep Songs' thread; a place to share life, light and love. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/555476

You and I are everlasting lovers
And I know this love will never die
We will drift like clouds across the sky
And watch the world spin by
A lover's paradise

You and I have always loved in freedom
And I know this freedom is so rare
So I say that you can go or stay with me
You are the light that ends the night
You are the reason why

Yesterday my life was very empty
All my dreams were shadowed in despair
When you came you reached into my soul
You melted me like snow
in springtime's warming glow

You're the one that I have always wanted
And I know you've ever needed me
So I'll stay forever in this ecstasy
You are the light that ends the night
You are the reason why...

(composed and written by ↪Wayfarer)

A love song to Sophia, the spirit of wisdom.
Elizabeth Carthew Vocal, John Morrison drums, Natalie Morrison bass, Jonathan Shearman © composer and piano.

https://soundcloud.com/jonathanshearman/the-reason-why-1

Creative dumb.
:zip:

I am derp. — fdrake

Is that better or worse than being twerp? :chin:

Eejits all :roll:

A generalised insult against the whole team by PM. — Baden

:lol: Oh, what I wouldn't give to read that...
He is right, of course, you are all idiots. Every last one of you. Who else would take on this thankless job? Except. Maybe. No...

The boss is not always right. But he's always the boss. — unenlightened

Indeed.

Or the rest of the mod team from what I've gathered. — Baden

Is this related to that one thread or over a period of time?
The whole team?

...banned for refusing moderation. — Baden

That would seem to be a culmination of unfortunate events, including others.
It seems that he couldn't respect the decisions and judgements of @Jamal.
And so, the sword falls...justly or otherwise...

Tu me manques @Olivier5 but we dance on :cool: :sparkle:

As I said:

We can all be idiots at certain times... — Amity