He was at risk of derailing the discussion and turning it into another flame-war, so I deleted the post. — Jamal

There have been many discussions derailed by heated exchanges between 2 strong-willed characters whose personalities/beliefs have clashed.

I note this exchange on p23 of a long discussion:

↪180 Proof ↪creativesoul The folks who think that there no problem at all are welcome to do something more productive with their time than write here that "there is no problem at all", again and again. You could write about a topic you care for, on a problem you actually face in your p-zombitudiness. — Olivier5

So your idea of a discussion forum is that someone posts a claim and everyone who disagrees with it should refrain from posting in that thread.

That explains a lot about your approach to this forum. — Isaac

Again, I see a mirror of what transpired in the 'Ukraine Crisis' thread.
Again, @Isaac seems to remain your favoured one, no matter all previous complaints against him re misrepresentation and more.

A real pity that it came to this. A permanent banning.
However, @Olivier5 is well out of it :sparkle:

Banned Olivier5 for persistently attempting to derail a thread with accusations of trolling and so on, refusing to stop when I asked, calling me an idiot and refusing to take it back, and then suggesting I ban him and saying he wouldn't care if I did.

He would disagree with parts of that, but those are my reasons. — Jamal

As a rule, I don't comment in the 'Bannings' thread [*]

What thread are you talking about? Is there a link to the examples of the alleged trolling?

It's unfortunate when a long-term poster is driven to the point where they don't care about being banned.
It is similar to the strong feeling I had when I wished my account to be deleted.
That was a result of the toxicity of the 'Ukraine Crisis' thread; also a general dissatisfaction with TPF and other personal reasons.
We can all be idiots at certain times...and being called one could/should be a wake-up call.
Unfortunately, the account of this particular episode sounds immature and childish.

Re your: 'He would disagree with parts of that, but those are my reasons'
[*] one of the reasons I don't comment is that when a person is banned they can no longer respond.

Sorry to see @Olivier5 go.
If you are reading this, I wish you all the very best. Take care.
Find the joy; follow the dance and music wherever... :flower: :sparkle:

I like this tune below, though I am afraid the lyrics are not very cheerful. Judging from the many translations available online, they are also hard to translate, often the mark of a good poem. — Olivier5

Thank you. Sometimes it's good simply to feel the beat and the heat without analysing :up:



Merci pour le fromage; je l’adore :cool: :clap: :hearts:

On peut vivre sans richesses
Presque sans le sou
Des seigneurs et des princesses
Y en a plus beaucoup

Mais vivre sans tendresse
On ne le pourrait pas
Non, non, non, non
On ne le pourrait pas

La vie en rose - Zaz

I love that. Believe it or not, I even bought the CD!
I was introduced to Coltrane during a module on 'How to Listen To Music'.
The best OU experience ever with exceptional student discussions sharing favourites and own music.
A real ear-opener I will never forget :sparkle:

A response. Je veux de l'amour, de la joie, de la bonne humeur :cool:

ZAZ - je veux | ( French version ) - Lyrics in french and English

Inspired by the short story and comments - 'Frozen Bodies, Warm Hearts':
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13817/frozen-bodies-warm-hearts

Gotta love me a bit of saxophone :fire: :cool:

WHATEVER GETS YOU THRU THE NIGHT. (Ultimate Mix, 2020) - John Lennon (official music video HD)


The Beatles - Can't Buy Me Love



Take care. Stay well @180 Proof :heart: :flower:

I'm still listening...it's wonderful. Amazing. God I love this place :fire:

Thanks to @Jamal's recommendations, commenting on the short story 'Nightmare in D Minor':
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13826/nightmare-in-d-minor

Terry Riley - 'The Dream' for justly tuned piano - Live in Rome 1999



Commissioned by the Kanagawa Foundation, 'The Dream' is a lengthy improvisatory piece for solo piano in just intonation. It is something of a sequel to Terry Riley's 1985 cycle 'The Harp of New Albion', also for justly tuned piano. This recording is from the work's premiere performance where Riley joined Philip Glass, Michael Harrison, and Charlemagne Palestine in an evening concert of selections of each composer's music for piano.

Performed by the composer.
Recorded live at the Palazzo delle Esposizioni in Rome, Italy on November 20th 1999.

The Roman Stoics are generally believed to have "softened" Stoicism and making it more human, less committed to the perfection of the ideal Stoic Sage. Also, at least compared to Chrysippus whose focus was on epistemology and logic, and the theory underlying Stoicism, the Roman Stoics emphasized ethics and practical wisdom. That emphasis makes it more sympathetic to most. — Ciceronianus

Yes. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly :clap:

Some blues...kinda...

Nina Simone - I Am Blessed


classical:

Sergei Prokofiev - Troika from "Lieutenant Kijé"

Even if my faith went AWOL some time ago, this still makes me feel good. Enjoy the day :pray:

Natale - Christmas - Tu scendi dalle stelle



or this version:

Peace on Earth
Composed by Errollyn Wallen

And snow falls down on me.
Peace on earth.
The night is dark and soft.
Peace on earth.
The lights that sparkle in the square,
The smoke that lingers in the air.
Peace on earth.
And grace falls down on me.
Peace on earth.
The dark will turn aside.
Peace on earth.
The fires that burn in ev'ry hearth
Do sing out praise of Christmas past.
Peace on earth.
Hear them singing.
Peace on earth.

Oh. I missed this. Will save for later, thanks!

Dancing in the Moonlight - King Harvest

Excerpt from an old post (sans 'psychologism' creeping up in this thread)
The pessimistic stance, which Does Not Entail 'miserabilism' 'cynicism' or 'futilism', cultivates courage – sing the blues and dance! – at the expense of hope (to wit: “There is an infinite amount of hope in the universe ... but not for us.” ~Franz Kafka)
— 180 Proof — 180 Proof

Never sure what 'psychologism' means.
: a tendency to interpret events or arguments in subjective terms, or to exaggerate the relevance of psychological factors.

If someone interprets the case for or against 'hope' in subjective terms, what is wrong with that?
Perhaps a focus on the negative 'feeling' of hope is somewhat narrow. The apparent avoidance of a broader view is unfortunate but there is no need/desire to delve deep into someone's psyche.
However, isn't philosophy about persuasion to look and think again - by encouraging a clear thinking process?
This includes questions about resulting actions/behaviour; any implications of seeing hope as hollow.

***

How does a pessimistic stance cultivate courage?
Do you mean that someone who detects life's problems is more likely to act and change what is wrong?
That can take courage if they speak out against the status quo.
Why would this be 'at the expense of hope'?

Thank you for the poem. Another day, another new experience :sparkle:

This is different from the confidence of the Tao Te Ching passage or accepting a ground based upon psychological factors. Wanting to talk about it is alive and uncertain. A final word is a kind of despair. — Paine

Not sure what you mean by the 'confidence' of the TTC verse. Do you mean there is a sense of absolute certainty; almost a dogmatic statement and attitude? A 'final word' as to the right way of looking at the world and how to live?

I like W.H. Auden because he approaches the question through our incapacity. — Paine

The question of what? Hope, life, love - the passing of time revealing all? How we can't tell what the consequences of our thought, feeling, and actions will be? The reason for the season?

Where do psychological factors enter the picture as a basis for acceptance/rejection of hope?
There are 'none so blind as those who will not see'?

Perhaps some poetry is better than others in helping us see - by opening up different perspectives.

Time can say nothing but I told you so,
Time only knows the price we have to pay;
If I could tell you, I would let you know.

Some people can't handle life's uncertainties; they need some form of an absolute answer to live by.
But having this kind of certainty or finality - does it help?
Or is it as you say - a kind of despair not recognised?

The idea of despair and hope is also related to the experience of depression and suicidality. I have experienced depression at times and have nursed people who were suicidal or had made suicide attempts. To some extent depression and suicidal ideas may be seen as a chemical aspect of fear, negativity and loss of hope. Antidepressants may be prescribed and in some people bring about a chemical restart of hope. But, it may not be that simple, involving life experiences and the existential aspect of despair. — Jack Cummins

Yes. Grateful for all your thoughts and personal insights.

There is so much within the field of psychology — Jack Cummins

Yes, psychology seems to have a higher profile/interest in this aspect of human life than does philosophy.
I don't intend to spend much more time in this discussion. However, just for balance here's an article examining the downside to hope:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/201807/7-downsides-hope

The interplay between hopelessness and the wish for transformation has also been explored by Thomas More in his, 'The Dark Night of the Soul', which looks at the twilight state of despair and its navigation in relation to transformational states, which links the whole encounter with the symbolic demons of despair to the angels of hope and how these are experienced in human experiences. — Jack Cummins

That sounds fascinating. Although I'm not sure about the extremes of demonising despair or the angelic aspect of hope. Does the book suggest this?

I doubt I will get round to reading all your reading suggestions but someone else might :sparkle:

OK.
Do you mean the Krishnamurti talk?

This is one of the most interesting parts of the human experience, when hopes clash!
The hopes of the many, the hopes of the few or the hopes of the one. — universeness

Yes. 'Interesting' to say the least!
There's so much to this topic. I've been turning my attention to other perspectives.
Related to health in particular - our experience of covid and more.
Talk again later :cool:

In the meantime, I'll leave this here:
https://aeon.co/essays/true-hope-takes-a-hard-look-at-reality-then-makes-a-plan

Likewise, the scientists who valiantly struggle to end the COVID-19 pandemic or the patients with cancer who choose to undergo treatments with painful side-effects know the road will be hard, but they push forward because they’ve found goals worth keeping their ‘hands on the throttle’ for. That’s the source of their hope.

Hope, at its heart, is a perception. Unlike most perceptions, however, this one has the possibility of creating reality. Most of the time, we think of reality as creating our perceptions. Look around you right now and notice the objects in your environment. They all exist in reality before you perceive them. But hope is a special kind of perception: it’s a perception of something that doesn’t yet exist. It’s a perception of what is possible. — Aeon essay - True hope

What is it that you think 'hope' is that means you feel you have to stop doing or eliminate it?
— Amity

Part of it is what unenlightened wrote:

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best.
— unenlightened

And part of it is that I experience them in similar manners. They both feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things. — T Clark

The first part of my question was:
What is it that you think 'hope' is?
I've had a look at wordhippo:

Noun
A belief or wish that something either can or will happen
The possibility or likelihood of some future event occurring
A feeling of optimism
A person or thing that is a source of hope
A strong desire
A (possible) course of action that is resorted to
A cheerful and optimistic attitude or disposition
Long and careful consideration or thought
Reliance on someone or something for financial support
The potential for achievement or excellence
An unattainable or fanciful hope or scheme
The capacity of people to maintain belief in an institution or a goal, or even in oneself and others
The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn’t, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described
Fantasy view of situation
A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity
The action of giving someone support, confidence, or hope
An action or task to be performed

Verb
To expectantly want something to happen
To intend to do something
To have a strong want or desire
To depend on with full trust or confidence
To try subtly or deviously to elicit a response or some information from someone
— wordhippo - another word for hope

***
Also, in an earlier reply to @Jack Cummins:
I wonder what those most critical of hope would say about the opposite state. That of living a life of 'hopelessness'. It seems some see hope as a positive virtue, others not so much.

Previously I used the word 'despair' as the opposite of hope. Turns out there are more d-words.

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/hopelessness.html

Context:
The loss of hope or confidence [*]
Ineptitude or a lack of competence
Pointlessness or uselessness
A state of disapproval or feeling of unfulfillment
The state or quality of being impractical — wordhippo - hopelessness

[*] D-words in addition to 'despair' include:
depression, dejection, despondence, downheartedness, defeatism, desolation.
***

To return to your post or position as to your experience ( of both hope and fear)

...feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things.

I appreciate that as a response to my OP question:

What is your experience of hope as a feeling, action or philosophical concept? — Amity

But I have still to improve my understanding. Do you only see hope as a negative feeling?

How is hope - or hoping - an intrusion/weakness or distraction?
What does 'weakness' mean here?
How does hope act to result in, or lead to, a position whereby attention is paid to the wrong things?
What are the wrong things?

So many questions, so little time. There's more to come. Later...
Thanks to all for engaging :sparkle:

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best.
— unenlightened

And part of it is that I experience them in similar manners. They both feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things. — T Clark

Thanks for your response. I will have to consider this later. Tired now. :yawn:

Thank you for the quote and reference. I read the whole talk and I really don't know how to respond.
It starts off:

I want to go this evening into the question of death. I would like to talk about it as age and maturity, time and negation, which is love. — Krishnamurti - talk 6 - Bombay 1962

There is much about this I query but will focus on the term 'indifference'.
At first, I thought the 'indifference' referred to was similar to the Stoic concept but I don't think that is the case. A brief look:

Of all the loaded words in Stoic philosophy, “indifferent” is one of the most provocative. Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Epictetus each tell us that the Stoic is indifferent to external things, indifferent to wealth, indifferent to pain, indifferent to winning, indifferent to hope and dreams and everything else.
[...]
The point was to be strong enough that there wasn’t a need to need things to go in a particular direction. Seneca for his part would say that obviously it’s better to be rich than poor, tall than short, but the Stoic was indifferent when fate actually dealt out its hand on the matter. Because the Stoic was strong enough to make good of it—whatever it was. — Daily stoic - indifference

[my emphasis]

Again, I note the 'indifference' to hope.

***
Now, from Krishnamurti's public talk, following on from your quote:

A mind that would understand time and continuity, must be indifferent to time and not seek to fill that space which you call time with amusement, with worship, with noise, with reading, with going to the film, by every means that you are doing now. And by filling it with thought, with action, with amusement, with excitement, with drink, with woman, with man, with God, with your knowledge, you have given it continuity; and so, you will never know what it is to die.
[...]
If you have cut everything around you, every psychological root hope, despair, guilt, anxiety, success, attachment - , then out of this operation, this denial of this whole structure of society, not knowing what will happen to you when you are operating completely, out of this total denial, there is the energy to face that which you call death. The very dying to everything that you have known, deliberately to cut away everything that you have known, is dying. You try it some time - not as a conscious, deliberate, virtuous act to find out - , just try it, play with it; for you learn more out of play than out of deliberate conscious effort. When you so deny, you have destroyed; and you must destroy; for, surely, out of destruction purity can come - an unspotted mind. — Krishnamurti - Public talk 6 Bombay 1962

[my emphasis]

It seems that we will never know what it is to die, unless we deny continuity and the whole structure of society. But this 'dying' to everything we have known, is dying? We must destroy because from destruction comes purity - an unspotted mind.

We have to be 'indifferent' to time and not seek to fill it with anything resembling everyday human life, is that right? To what end? A pure blank mind?
Why would we want that? There seems to be an attachment to the destruction of thought.
'What is it to die' is a question that cannot be thought of? Then how come the talk? A mind spotted...

I'm not sure I can reassure you that my understanding has improved.
Ironically, the talk filled my time in reading and thinking...perhaps I should have let it go :chin:

OK. Look forward in hope :cool:

How do you demonstrate it?
— Amity
In a myriad of ways, like those exemplars I just mentioned above. But such examples can also include, authoring a thread about hope on a philosophy website. — universeness

Hah. Yes. In starting any exploratory thread, we hope for the best and prepare for the worst!
I'm glad that there have been so many helpful and thoughtful contributions and interactions.
I never know where it will lead or what I will learn. It can be fascinating...

I wonder if love/desire ( or even hate) is necessary before any hope can take place.
— Amity

I think it's hope that is fundamental. Why breathe or eat or drink, why not just stop and die? We hope that the next moment will be ok, that's why. — universeness

But isn't it the desire to survive that is the driver? The love of self and others. That is what leads to hope in every kind of way...insignificant, moderate, and highly significant. And yes, hope is what keeps us moving on. Hmm. Perhaps desire is both hope and love depending on degree and duration.

From the article I linked to:

Note, further, that the same outcome can be the object of banal, insignificant hope for some people, moderately significant hope for others, and apex-level, life-structuring hope for still others. For example, the sentence

I hope that it will not rain tomorrow

uttered by you while planning a picnic expresses a banal hope. Uttered by me when the betrothed at an outdoor wedding, it expresses a quite significant hope. Uttered by residents of the community on the banks of a raging, overflowing river, the sentence expresses a still more significant hope. The significance, again, is partly a function of how invested the hoper is in the outcome. This explains why significant hopes are typically accompanied by intensity of speratic feeling.

Another and very different way in which we speak of hope refers not to an episodic state but to a broad existential stance: an anticipatory openness to or embrace of an indeterminate range of possible futures. Cheshire Calhoun describes such basal hope as ‘the phenomenological idea of the future’ (2018: 74). Basal hope has no specific object, does not involve a disposition to have discrete mental episodes, and is not typically under our control. Authors ranging from Calhoun to the Christian existentialist Gabriel Marcel to the Jewish Marxist Ernst Bloch have depicted basal hope as an essential element of finite agency.5

***

Carl made many, many, many hope filled statements, such as:
"We embarked on our journey to the stars with a question first framed in the childhood of our species and in each generation, asked anew, with undiminished wonder: What are the stars? Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars."

"Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal." — universeness

Thanks for the quote.
So, undiminished life wonder with hope to find some answers to our questions along the way.
To satisfy our wonderlust...and tell our stories...thanks for sharing yours :sparkle:

I mean, if we do permanently lose the faculties that allows for consciousness, that is a case of a life that's over, for all practical purposes. — Manuel

Permanent loss of consciousness would be brain death. And so, yes, life over.

However, are you talking about a persistent vegetative state or being in a coma? Someone being kept on life support...do they and their friends and family hold on to hope?
Yes, I think so. To some extent.
That of course will be influenced by information given to them by the medical team
Or perhaps other counsellors, including the religious.
I think the problem then, like any health issue, relates to false hopes being raised.
A difficult time for all concerned.
In the case of a terminal illness, prayers or hopes can change to that of a speedy and painless release.

For me, she's the epitome of courage — 180 Proof

Absolutely. I didn't follow up on all your quotes but this being the first...it struck me with force.
You have a way of picking out from your catalogue of music, books, quotes - gems of joy and more.

Your choice is never random; it is exactly what is needed and fitting. I think you must know your storage system inside out! Where and when did you find the story of Emma Goldman?

Thanks for joining in; much appreciated :up:

If we had no such thing as music or books, or plays and colors and tastes, well then, life would be indeed be a waste. — Manuel

Your words made me think of those suffering from different types of sensory disabilities affecting sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste or spatial awareness.

As 95% of the information about the world around us comes from our sight and hearing, a sensory disability can affect how a person gathers information from the world around them.
[...]
The effects of autism are wide ranging and can include difficulties in social interaction and communication, restricted and repetitive interests and behaviours, and sensitivity to sensory experiences – noise, light, touch etc. As autism can be very variable, the word ‘spectrum’ describes the range of difficulties that someone with autism may experience. — Aruma - Types of sensory disabilities

Life might be more limiting and challenging without the arts and sensual experiences but can we ever say that it is a waste? I think not. It is thanks to those who care; hold pragmatic hope and take action that life can be improved.

For me, hope is what remains at the end, when all previous reason has lost its vigour, its value, its authority. A pure desire to find meanings once lost. — Benj96

Interesting point of view. It reminds me of the Pandora's Box myth where Hope is left behind after other blessings or curses have flown out (depending on interpretation).

Pandora opened a jar left in her care containing sickness, death and many other unspecified evils which were then released into the world. Though she hastened to close the container, only one thing was left behind – usually translated as Hope, though it could also have the pessimistic meaning of "deceptive expectation".
[...]
In a major departure from Hesiod, the 6th-century BC Greek elegiac poet Theognis of Megara states that

Hope is the only good god remaining among mankind;
the others have left and gone to Olympus.
Trust, a mighty god has gone, Restraint has gone from men,
and the Graces, my friend, have abandoned the earth.
Men's judicial oaths are no longer to be trusted, nor does anyone
revere the immortal gods; the race of pious men has perished and
men no longer recognize the rules of conduct or acts of piety.[15]

[...]
It is also argued that hope was simply one of the evils in the jar, the false kind of hope, and was no good for humanity, since, later in the poem, Hesiod writes that hope is empty (498) and no good (500) and makes humanity lazy by taking away their industriousness, making them prone to evil.[29] — Wiki - Pandora's box

Some might say having hope in a hopeless place is the greatest of all irrationalities, a pointless, fruitless effort, that one ought to give up hope, but if its all they have left what would they have after that? Nothing. Non existence. Submittal to death. Oblivion. — Benj96

Indeed. If we are to take a 'hopeless place' as being of significant suffering e.g. unjustly being held and tortured in a prison, then for sure some might despair while others are hopeful.
In the excellent article I linked to earlier, Chignell uses the example of the film The Shawshank Redemption's characters Andy and Red to illustrate his theory:

https://academic.oup.com/pq/advance-article/doi/10.1093/pq/pqac010/6582893
Abstract
Most elpistologists now agree that hope for a specific outcome involves more than just desire plus the presupposition that the outcome is possible. This paper argues that the additional element of hope is a disposition to focus on the desired outcome in a certain way. I first survey the debate about the nature of hope in the recent literature, offer objections to some important competing accounts, and describe and defend the view that hope involves a kind of focus or attention. I then suggest that this account makes sense of the intuitive thought that there are moral and pragmatic norms on hope that go beyond the norms on desires and modal presuppositions. I conclude by considering some key questions.

[...]

Andy desires to be free and believes it's just barely possible. But he is also disposed to attend to the imagined escape as possible. Red desires freedom to the same degree, and takes it to be possible in just the same way. But he is disposed to focus on the outcome in a different way—under the aspect of its improbability. We hear this difference in the way they intone the same proposition:

Andy: ‘It's just a one-in-a-million chance, but IT’S POSSIBLE!’

Red: ‘It's possible, but it's JUST A ONE-IN-A-MILLION CHANCE!’

— Focus Theory of Hope - Andrew Chignell — Amity

And hope I would imagine is a constant we ought not to undervalue, as losing it only brings forth utter despair. — Benj96

Yes, because nothing much seems to have changed since the days of the 6th-century BC Greek elegiac poet Theognis of Megara!

I'll end with this from wiki:

A less pessimistic interpretation understands the myth to say: countless evils fled Pandora's jar and plague human existence; the hope that humanity might be able to master these evils remains imprisoned inside the jar.
Life is not hopeless, but human beings are hopelessly human.

Sorry, Jack, to hear of your ongoing housing problem but admire the way you are dealing with it:

So, I try to think about the practical, personal and political aspects in the fullest possible scope. I am trying to cope with the dramas which I encounter practically and on an existential level.i can't speak to the official landlord because he has disappeared in Pakistan. I am trying to get legal advice and trying to find accommodation, which is not easy when so many are looking.

You seem to be doing all you can do in a most frustrating and difficult situation.
Stay strong in pragmatic hope and action :pray:
Take care :sparkle:

It's hard to maintain a view of the world objectively and speak much about hope. It is a strategy to maintain some semblance of sanity. Otherwise, things are simply too bleak for us. — Manuel

Yes. It seems that hope is more about a subjective feeling related to a mix of emotions. But we've also discussed it in terms of action and abstraction. As you say, it can be a strategic choice in coping with the realities or hallucinations of the world as we know/experience it.

Different considerations and conclusions can be reached as to the meaning of hope.

I do want to add though, that being secular too, as I am, can be a profoundly mystical experience. I hesitate to talk about spirituality, given how loaded the word is. — Manuel

The hesitancy to talk about 'spirituality' on a philosophy forum is quite natural. It does come loaded with all kinds of religious baggage. I think there should be concerted efforts to reclaim the word for a secular world. No shame attached.

But depending on which traditions you follow and how you view the world from a more general perspective, can be a source of very profound experiences. — Manuel

Indeed. From Nina Simone's interpretation:

Isn't it a pity
You don't know what i'm talking about yet
But i will tell you soon
It's a pity
Isn't it a pity
Isn't it a shame
Yes, how we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
[...]
Some things take so long
But how do i explain
Why not too many people can see
That we are all just the same
We're all guilty
Because of all the tears
Our eyes just can't hope to see
But i don't think it's applicable to me
The beauty that surrounds them
Child, isn't it a pity...

In fact, you mentioned one: music. It is a privilege to be a being that is capable of appreciating such a thing, noise to other creatures, sublime to us.

As with music, many other experiences too. Not sure if this connects with hope, but, worth pointing out. — Manuel

Did you listen to the Nina Simone video linked to by @180 Proof?
It blew me away.
And yes, it does connect to hope...in a big way...the hope that our eyes will see the beauty...even in the midst of life's woes. Through all the fears and tears we can find the rainbow:

"The situation's really devastating, but I refuse to be sucked into negativity and pessimism," says Simona. I want to continue with my optimism because I can see a light at the end of this tunnel, just as I see a rainbow." — BBC News - Coronavirus: Covid Nurses' song of hope from Italy

That song of hope we can feel it, even in another language :cool:
Gracias :up:

It is sometimes argued that hope is not the best approach to life. I had an art therapist tutor who seemed to regard it as a rather futile pursuit but the problem would be that without hope it may be like giving up. The existentialists, especially Camus, spoke of living with the absurd and despair. This may be valid to some extent but it depends how far it goes. — Jack Cummins

Yes. As per previous comments. I wonder what those most critical of hope would say about the opposite state. That of living a life of 'hopelessness'. It seems some see hope as a positive virtue, others not so much. As you say, 'it depends how far it goes'; the various aspects of my questions left any responses wide open. A matter of kind and degree. From the superficial (everyday) to the significant (crises).

I agree that sometimes a leap of faith, not in the religious sense, is required when it comes to
processing or progressing, from what one hopes for to action and any eventual outcome.
Navigating inner and outer obstacles as you describe.

Yes. Personal/social attitudes and values ( conscious or otherwise) play an important part.
I was conscious when I included 'Love and Peace' in the title that some eyes might roll and was tempted to take them out. However, I agree with you as to the important relationship between the variables and so kept them in.

Thank you too for your thoughts re secular humanists. I don't think that religion has the final say on morals or spirituality.

What is it that we hope for? A political hope might concern environmental issues...
How do we manage our expectations with regard to politics?
How reasonable is it to hope and expect governments to prioritise the different goals within set structures and ideologies?
Hoped and unhoped-for change can happen like chaos (sudden strike) - or at slo-snail pace or not at all.

"Hope as a feeling?" Pacifer, or placebo, for fear — 180 Proof

Hope as dummy-tit? To feel or seek/suck comfort to heal/overcome anxiety?
Does that mean you create that feeling intentionally?
When I try to think of any hopeful feelings I might have, then I'm already at a distance from basic hope.
Instant hope; is it like instant coffee? Instant fear, a flight response. Hope kicking in too...to survive.

Is that the same as the 'feeling'? A subjective pleasant perception with a positive motivation.
That's not quite right. There's more.
An uplifting of mood/spirit invoked by engagement with attuned others?
Perhaps the feeling I had when I listened to the Italian Rainbow song? And other songs presented here.

"Hope as an action?" Denying risk or improbability. — 180 Proof

That seems a bit negative and wobbly. Can you explain further?
For me, I guess the hope in question is that of pragmatism. Problem-solving - to bring about a positive
change.

"Hope as a philosophical concept?" The essential 'triumph of imagination over intelligence'. — 180 Proof

Doesn't that quote refer to love or marriage?
It seems not to give 'hope' its due as something of value.
I've only recently paid close attention to it as an academic philosophical concept.
I guess I've seen it more as a psychological motivating force in the context of being and doing.
Also, related to anxiety, choosing ways of thinking to protect against negativity and low mood.

Where have you expressed or found it?
In a foxhole there is no "hope" – there's only courage or tears (or both). — 180 Proof

That reminds me of this:
https://philosophynow.org/issues/105/Atheist_In_A_Foxhole
- how some religious people say no-one is an atheist in a foxhole.

We can find ourselves in a mental hole of our own making with only ourselves to care/look out for.
There can be all kinds of mixed emotions tied up with values/character.
Real or imagined dangers/failures. Can we climb out on our own? Some hope so...
Hope can co-exist with courage and tears. Are you denying the existence of hope?

In a battlefield, the foxhole is apparently designed so that individuals look out for each other's back.
In the hope they survive enemy fire. What if the enemy fire is your own? Bullets of despair.

Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?
More like, as futile as regret. — 180 Proof

How is regret futile? OK, you can't undo what has happened. However, the hope is that you can learn from your mistakes. That's what hope does. We try to achieve goals, we might fail, we try again.
On the other hand, sometimes Zarathustra is a little too much at any given time...
Thanks for the quote, I'll might read it later.

I really appreciate your attention to the OP :up:

That's a bit complex; here is not really the place to go into it, but very briefly, identification is making a connection of identity of any sort I am British, I am aphilosopher, I am going to win the lottery - the underlined are the identities, and the connection is an emotion pride or shame hope or fear. — unenlightened

Thanks. I know something already about identity and surrounding socio-psychological issues related to pride or shame. Class, gender, financial status etc.

What I didn't understand was how it was unnecessary. Emotions are part of who we are.
We are not necessarily 'attached' to hope or fear. Perhaps it is a fear or anxiety related to a potential consequence (success/failure) of entertaining hope that causes some to deny they have any.

Both fear and hope, their contents, exist whether we like it or not. I don't view them as 'hollow'.
What I would say is that they have to be attended to. Attention paid.
Otherwise, it's avoidance. Your thoughts?

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.
— Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

These have always been two of my favorite lines from the Tao Te Ching. I've never had any trouble dispensing with hope and understanding why that is important. Fear has always been my problem. Hearing they are the same has always given me hope. Oops. — T Clark

What is it that you think 'hope' is that means you feel you have to stop doing or eliminate it?

Of course there is a public aspect to identity, such that if the mods think I write nonsense all the time I get thrown off the site, but again, that is only a problem to me to the extent that I am emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher. — unenlightened

Yes. Also, if the mods think that someone is acting without a certain degree of control, almost like an addict. There can be a suspension until a balance might be reached. The mind takes possession; we need something badly and it takes over everyday activities. Kinda what's happening to me right now, even with my self-imposed time limit. I'm not emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher but I find myself becoming too involved and need to step back.

Sometimes you don't even realise that you have hope until you experience disappointment.
For example, the recent decision to cancel the December Short Story Competition.
There was an expectation that it would happen. Stories might have been written with the hope to share and receive feedback. Yet, as far as I can tell, no author expressed any disappointment they felt.
Why? No pushback. Is that because it was pointless, the decision having been taken?

I felt disappointed and said so. But perhaps I was wrong. I was more invested than I thought.
Unknown hopes dashed. Who knew?

"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." ~Emma Goldman — 180 Proof

Didn't get much further than this.
I shake my head as I realise my ignorance. I hadn't heard of Goldman before. After reading the wiki article, I shake my head in disbelief at her life story. How she overcame the horrendousness and was still able to 'sing' and dance:

One of her first public talks in support of "the Cause" was in Rochester. After convincing Helena not to tell their parents of her speech, Goldman found her mind a blank once on stage. She later wrote, suddenly:[34]

something strange happened. In a flash I saw it—every incident of my three years in Rochester: the Garson factory, its drudgery and humiliation, the failure of my marriage, the Chicago crime...I began to speak. Words I had never heard myself utter before came pouring forth, faster and faster. They came with passionate intensity...The audience had vanished, the hall itself had disappeared; I was conscious only of my own words, of my ecstatic song.
[...]
While dancing among fellow anarchists one evening, she was chided by an associate for her carefree demeanor. In her autobiography, Goldman wrote:[171]

I told him to mind his own business, I was tired of having the Cause constantly thrown in my face. I did not believe that a Cause which stood for a beautiful ideal, for anarchism, for release and freedom from conventions and prejudice, should demand denial of life and joy. I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to behave as a nun and that the movement should not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it. "I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things." — Wiki - Emma Goldman

The epitome of hope in action.

I must leave it here for now...

So much here, so good :up:
Will need to take a break now. Later...

We need human spirit yes. But I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated.' — universeness

I don't know much about Sagan or the context in which he uses 'animated'.
Does he say anything about 'hope'?

Ok, in that case, I fully recommend addiction to hope! It will destroy your fears!
I remain hopeful that most people can defeat any compulsion to become addicted to gambling.
If some can't, then I remain hopeful that we can put supports in place to 'save' those addicted to gambling. — universeness

Just say "No to Hope!" - as some do.
An all-consuming hope to win when gambling money will occupy and exacerbate any mental/physical predisposition. That will in no way destroy any fears but will decimate your bank balance, disrupt and influence actions/behaviour that will most likely lead to poverty and even homelessness.

Any addiction or release from it relies on support. I'm with you there in pragmatic hope :100:

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best. Better to keep the mind silent and stay in the present. On a practical level, of course one has to foresee and prepare - it is the identification that is unnecessary and causes the suffering of hope and fear.

Spirituality is presence, secularity is absence of mind in thought and imagination. — unenlightened

Yes. Usually, we think of hope as a future projection but it can also be an in-the-moment 'hoping'.
And that can involve the past: I hope my mother didn't suffer too much before she died.
However, I agree that past kind of 'hope' related to anxiety is not helpful.

Also, there can be a natural predisposition for hope or despair.
I'm not sure what you mean by the identification being unnecessary. Grateful for clarification.
Secularity as 'absence of mind' doesn't make sense to me...