What is philosophy? — Bret Bernhoft
I think poetry escapes confusion because it is not trying to arrive at clarity, or at least any definite propositional kind of clarity, lacking any ambiguity. Perhaps by "confusion" you mean more uncertainty, and if this is the case I would agree with you because I see (at least much of the best) poetry as a celebration of uncertainty. Would you include the other arts in this judgement as well? — Janus
I'm not sure what you mean when you say language is a muddled approach to reality. And again I'd ask whether you would include the language of music and the language of the visual arts in this. Perhaps you mean that what we say about reality is never reality itself? But then the very idea of reality would seem to be impossible without language. — Janus
Animals participate in reality - they use it, in Wittgenstein's terms. Calling this a belief is surely a retrojection. — Banno
It can "gain a grounding" by building on that use - the same process as we see in showing rather than stating. After all, there is a way of understanding a rule that is not an interpretation - not a belief - but which is found in enacting the rule: §201 — Banno
I think this is right: it is only the language of poetry that can escape the mire; because it doesn't aim to be propositional but rather allusive and evocative. — Janus
I'd also like to hear something about what you think our use of language does exactly. Psychologists test how infralinguistic children model the world, and how crows do for that matter. Why language? — Srap Tasmaner
If a poorly constructed building fails to meet certain criteria, we call it bad. We decide for ourselves what those criteria are depending upon the utility we seek from the building. There are no objectively good or bad buildings. It's just a matter of preference. On the other hand, the building itself exists regardless of my preference or opinion. — Hanover
As to morality, are you claiming that bad buildings are akin to bad acts, and saying that rape (for example) is bad if it meets our criteria for badness based upon whatever social objectives we might have,? Or, do you subscribe to the position that rape is bad regardless of what I think, much like the building exists regardless of my opinion? — Hanover
No, there are two things (1) badness and (2) suffering. #2 is an emotional state. #1 is a judgment about that emotional state. If I say "you are suffering," that will be true if the event of your suffering is occurring. If I say "your suffering is bad," that will be true if your suffering is bad. What is "bad" here other than an opinion? Your suffering is occurring (or not) regardless of my opinion. Why doesn't this apply to "bad"?
I can't dictate whether your pain is real, but can I dictate whether your pain is morally bad? If I can't, how do I know? — Hanover
But where is the moral judgment? I get that the suffering is occurring in the world as an objectively identifiable event, but where is the badness of it except in your opinion? — Hanover
Basic courtesy dictates that you respond to someone you has replied to your topic and in fact in length ... — Alkis Piskas
"Someone said so" is not in general an adequate justification for an inference or belief. — Cabbage Farmer
Dividing the world up in accord with our language does not place any limits on what can be addressed. I could for example, by a combination of language, demonstration and practice, teach you the technique of holding the stem of a mugwort so as to twist it over your long finger and pull out the several inches of root without breaking it. Language does not work independently of the world, nor of the body that is speaking or hearing. Cognition is the same. It does not happen in one's mind alone, but in one's hands, in the feel of the root and the soil. Cognition is in the doing, language is a part of that doing. — Banno
You can "say what [ you ] want" but you can not make what you say mean what you "intend". — Antony Nickles
But I see through Wittgenstein's sham, to see that true principles are derived from the minds of individuals, not from the public judgement of "correct". — Metaphysician Undercover
According to what I described above, Wittgenstein's PLA, 253-270, demonstrates very clearly that one can never be certain concerning one's own sensations, if certainty requires justification. Do you not agree, that Wittgenstein has created a model that shows we can doubt being in pain? — Metaphysician Undercover
Well, it's nice to have some company, but as ever I can't really make much sense of what you're saying, you may have to be a bit more explicit for me. — Isaac
Modern science can find no such thing that answers to 'the sensation of being in pain'. That's the problem I'm attempting to address. — Isaac
it seems to me that Isaac is really adding a new language-game to the mix based on new information. It could be that the example (not sure at this point) of pain and doubting that one is in pain, is generally senseless, but that there are exceptions.
— Sam26
Yes, that's exactly it. Banno and I have been here before. When we talk about cognition, in the scientific sense, we need a language-game to talk about what we find, but that's often not the folk psychology that gives us many of the terms we use day-to-day. — Isaac
then you lose me. Also, you can't look at X, Y, and Z happening in the brain, and say, that's pain. Moreover, if someone isn't feeling pain, then they're not in pain, regardless of what the body is doing.There's no such thing as 'sensations'. They don't exist. No representation on earth, Non-entities...* — Isaac
Sam26, if this is too far off topic I am happy to move it to another thread. Just give the nod. — Banno
Is it even worth it to engage with these people?
They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"?
I struggle with this.
[Edit: I added flat earthers to the original list.] — Xtrix
Your belief that the cup is red is not justified by anything. The contention is that it is insufficient to count as knowledge, because doing so fudges the very useful distinction between belief and knowledge.
But further, if "the cup is red" were to count as knowledge by acquaintance, it must be justified by appeal to our common use of those words. — Banno
Right, we can use knowledge by acquaintance to justify our beliefs, but that which we know by acquaintance is not of itself a belief - that in turn needs to be justified. That one sees a pink tree - be it illusory or not - is not a belief at the moment experienced. Hence: — javra
And this knowledge of “being in pain” isn’t JTB or some variant but, instead, one’s direct awareness of oneself being in pain; hence, a variant of knowledge by acquaintance. — javra
But that's simply the way language is, it does not consist of rules. Each person decides, based on one's own experience, what to call any different object, or any different feeling — Metaphysician Undercover
I think Wittgenstein's point is that having a pain (or other sensation) is not something that one can come to know or to learn of, and so it does not constitute knowledge. In order for it to be (learned) knowledge, one would need to be able to guess or speculate whether one was in pain and then be able to confirm or disconfirm it. If it makes no sense to doubt whether you are having pain (when you are having pain), then it makes no sense to be certain of it, either. — Luke
If we look closely at §258, we see that ‘I remember the connection correctly’ refers to remembering a meaning, namely, the meaning of the sign ‘S’, not to making sure that I infallibly apply ‘S’ only to S’s in the future. — Banno
I'm stuck here. It's hard to imagine a language that doesn't rely on any social conventions. — Wheatley
Given his thinking about how language develops, viz., that it's not a totally private affair, it's done necessarily with other people
— Sam26
Why does he think it is necessary? — Wheatley
