The idea that eternal damnation is the result of failure to do and think certain things has served some very well.

As for whether Jesus was born with Original Sin, the answer is of course no. Because God, that's why. — Ciceronianus the White

It is an interesting point to ponder, I agree.

To your first, yes, the church has been able to have many part with their cash thanks to their lies.

To your last, what about Jesus' human half. Was it somehow exempt and why ?

After all, sin is a good thing to Christians, given that they sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan. Jesus would maintain a sin nature so as to not derail god's plan.

Regards
DL

Jesus ditto. If he REALLY was into law and order, and sinless, he would have thrown that cobblestone. — god must be atheist

I do not agree.

What do you think he wrote in the sand?

Likely, it take two to fornicate and I cannot judge half a case.

That or, if an eye for an eye is the usual measure of justice, a measured response IOW, killing someone for screwing is overkill and unjust.

Regards
DL

And when Jesus was crucified he suffered human agony. — Coben

To an eternal being who has never felt anything, even as scriptures say that god never changes or learns anything, a bit of pain would be like a breath of fresh air.

God would have ever so grateful for any new input in his never changing personae.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj-qBUWOYfE

Regards
DL

But I also understand why humans are open to these kinds of things. — Coben

I did not see anything about the Jewish view of Eden as Original Virtue, which changes the whole moral to the Eden story.

If Adam, would you have educated yourself or would you have remained with your eyes closed and unable to reproduce?

If you understand why people are open to such things, what is your take on why people are willing to believe supernatural statements of all kinds as real, without evidence or proof?

Even talking serpents and donkeys.

Regards
DL

That may very well be true, but the early church did not adopt the Jewish messianic myth as whole cloth. — Bitter Crank

I agree. Christianity ruined a rather progressive toward equality religion for their rather backwards thinking homophobic, misogynous and genocidal using god.

Evil adores evil and Yahweh is evil.

Regards
DL

Exegesis is not simple, — tim wood

As an esoteric ecumenist, I agree.

Regards
DL

Are you sure you’re not Jesus? You’re so wise and messianic. — Noah Te Stroete

As Jesus asked his disciples, who do they say I am like.

Titles and comparisons are given. It is not something I can claim.

Are you ready to make a claim?

Regards
DL

940 — Frank Apisa

Thanks for a related message.

Regards
DL

Bertha — Noah Te Stroete

If that is your name, good.

If not, see ya elsewhere as it looks like we are done here.

Regards
DL

Are you Jesus returned? — Noah Te Stroete

No. But following his esoteric ways and having suffered my apotheosis, has given me a Christ consciousness.

The fact that you will not name your imaginary god tells me a lot.

Regards
DL

Really? Explain. I think we all would love to hear the solutions. — Noah Te Stroete

??

I have no solution to our lack of a political will.

If the U.N. can't get the world to fly right, I sure wont have the idea to unite the world.

Regards
DL

I’m not taking it literally. What makes you think I am? — Noah Te Stroete

The quote and lie.

Regards
DL

That’s good. I just don’t think you have an audience here. I also think your approach is all wrong. — Noah Te Stroete

They crucified Jesus for his goodness. They crucify me for telling the truth.

If you have a tried and proven method that gets better results than I get, and I do get positive results, while knowing that most believers are too obtuse to admit they are stupid or wrong and just run away.

Then again, you are a believer in a god without proof, so I see you as one of the stupid ones.

Who is your God? The genocidal Yahweh?

Regards
DL

I’m sorry but no one knows how to fix our problems. — Noah Te Stroete

Yes we do.

We do not have the political will.

Regards
DL

The Serpent in Genesis tempted Adam & Eve, claiming they would gain the knowledge of God. I thought you would know that. — Noah Te Stroete

I thought you did not like literal reading. Are you a hypocrite or a liar?

Get the quote.

Regards
DL

You really have no imagination. As StreetlightX once said, you’re a “fucking retard.” — Noah Te Stroete

I quote you the bible to refute your idiocy and you get upset.

Fuck you.

Regards
DL

The ones telling the stories? I believe most of them had more insight than you give them credit for. — Noah Te Stroete

I give them a lot of credit and only go into literal use to engage the fools who are literal readers of myths.

I seek the foolish literalists, as the non-literalists are, as you seem to know, a lot brighter and mostly do not need the correcting that would have them stop using homophobic and misogynous teachings the way immoral literalists do.

Regards
DL

We are the cause of the current mass extinction. Sooner or later, the ecosystem will fail to sustain us. I’d certainly call this a mess. — Noah Te Stroete

No argument my friend.

A mess that only world unification can cure.

Way too many are still fighting a NWO but if planet ship Earth does not elect a Captain, I cannot see us as able to stop the damaging habits we have collectively allowed ourselves.

We have to get mad and elect a climate Czar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KvZI8BsSxw

Regards
DL

then thought they knew better than God. If there is a God (I believe so), then most of us are guilty of this. — Noah Te Stroete

Where is it written that they thought they were better than god?

I see them more as following scriptures, which you should see as a good thing.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

They tested/thought about god command and decided that they did not want to remain stupid and with their eyes closed and wisely chose education over stupidity and innocent ignorance of most things.

They chose to gain the knowledge of reproduction.

They, as Jewish traditions say, graduated from school as we all should want to do.

Regards
DL

That does not follow. Three other humans are said to have been born without original sin: Adam&Eve (who committed the original sin) and Mary (mother of Jesus). — Relativist

I will give you A & E, of course, as they were the originators in the Christian concept of Original Sin that reversed the more correct Jewish view of Original Virtue.

As to Mary, she was not even a virgin if the translators are correct and if wrong on that, they are likely wrong elsewhere.

Get the appropriate quote please as I do not recall Mary being named an exception to what is otherwise a universal condition.

Regards
DL

He taught us peace and love but at the same time condemned those who didn’t follow the Laws of Moses and who didn’t repent. — Noah Te Stroete

I have not come to bring peace, but war. I adlib Jesus and thus refute your statement.

He was also against the divorce laws of Moses and would have implemented an even more disgusting no divorce policy.

Some of the moral tenets put into Jesus by Rome were ok. Many were not moral tenets at all.

Regards
DL

Well, I don’t think the ancient Hebrews were genius philosophers. — Noah Te Stroete

The non-literalist ancients were brighter than the literalist fools that now populate Christianity and Islam.

They were a damn site more moral as well.

Regards
DL

But does it seem to you as it seems to me that a) the disobedience that preceded the ingestion was also a problem, — tim wood

The first disobedience we see in the bible is A & E not reproducing way back in Gen 1. They disobey and consume knowledge in Gen 3.

Paradoxically, they could not obey in god in Gen1 because they were too stupid to even know they were naked or how to reproduce. They needed the knowledge that got them kicked out of Eden.

God had them coming and going and that is why many see Eden as a set up by prick of a god.

Regards
DL

Just look at the mess this has gotten us in — Noah Te Stroete

??

What mess?

Is a populations first duty not to reproduce and grow the population? Is that not what we have done?

Sure we might have done it in a better way but as far as a natural species goes, we are doing great.
If you look at the stats for the world, you will see that most of the markers for evil are down and that things are going great.

Global climate change will be our Rubicon and will determine our collective fate in theses days of mass extinctions.

Regards
DL

I do not see where anyone noted what (the) original sin is. My bad if I missed it- would someone kindly point me to it? Or if that hasn't been done, will someone provide? Because it is not clear to me that anyone so far knows what it is. — tim wood

Since Eve was deceived into eating from the tree of knowledge, god exonerated her and the Original Sin was cause by Adam accepting knowledge from Eve.

Poor thinkers say they ate an apple, which is a simplified version of, ---- they did not obey.

Regards
DL

What then to do about
This Jesus mania — god must be atheist

Make him human because as a god, he was ruined the moment the Trinity concept tied him to a genocidal son murdering prick of a god.

That bond must end before Jesus becomes half way worthy of us.

We would still have to tweak some of his more immoral tenets but at least a new Jesus archetype could then be followed. Rome created the one we know and we can improve on that immoral archetype.

Regards
DL

Isn't basic Christian doctrine that Jesus was without sin? — Hanover

It depends on which denomination, but basically, yes. That condition is negated though when they say that all humans are born with Original Sin, and they say that Jesus had a human side. That contradiction is what I am trying to get past.

Jews believe people are intrinsically good but can be misled to evil. At least that's what I was taught. — Hanover

A good and true teaching, although I would not say mislead. I would say that we must do some evil as we evolve. We must both compete and cooperate and when we compete, we create losers and victims.
Competition and ironically evolution is the root of all human to human evil. That evil is a small part of the greater good of man continuing to evolve.

We are collectively mitigating those evils nicely.

Jews generally believe the resurrection story is horseshit, so for that reason they reject that Jesus was the Messiah. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of Jewish horseshit too, from the ark to the splitting of the sea, but the Jesus thing I suppose was just a bit much. — Hanover

You prover that Jews are more intelligent thinkers than the average Christian literalist fool.

That is why Jews, wisely, follow the oral traditions and put man above god. It continues to strive both for and against god.

If Jesus would have followed the actual Jewish myth and returned to lead Jewry, all Jews would be Christian.

Regards
DL

Bitter Crank — Bitter Crank

FYI.

The original Jewish messianic myth did not include anything about the forgiveness of sin.

The sacrificed angel/Jesus was to return and lead the people out of bondage. That was it.

Regards
DL

Qwex — Qwex

Ditto.

Regards
DL

So, to answer your question, yes, my current belief, and hypothesis of such (and that's all it is), is the... creator... was sentient. — Qwex

Gnostics have rejected such thinking because, like fractals, it becomes a never ending story with, as the ancients even said, one turtle standing on another and on and on and------

You get the idea and that is why I reject such thinking as a cop out.

That scenario has been used by Hollywood quite a bit. It is defined ad Gnostic thinking.

Regards
DL

But alas I, a mere mortal, have no cure for literalism. — unenlightened

Nor I except to point out the idiocy of reading myths like history and thinking a god created women.

Regards
DL

it is almost impossible for that faith to be reasonable. — BrianW

That is why it grew through inquisitions and murder as it could not argue for itself in a cohesive manner.

The same applied to Islam. They share the same DNA.

Regards
DL

I, personally believe the universe was created. — Qwex

In case you want to expand.

I would say self created from a big bang.

Do you give sentience to what you call creator, and was that entity created?

Regards
DL

Just don't believe in the crap, — god must be atheist

I am a Gnostic Christian.

We have rejected the crap and retained the good. That may be why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Regards
DL

It seems to me that the core of the idea of original sin -- that people generally can't go very long without doing something awful to each other -- has been abundantly proved. — Bitter Crank

That is not the core idea.

The core idea, and the need for baptism, is that we are all born in sin.

That core does not exist in Judaism. It makes god look like a poor creator who cannot get creation right and has to later destroy the vast majority of us after suitable eons in hell.

Regards
DL

Where/when/by whom was the concept of original sin first developed? — BrianW

I have not looked that up and do not really care.

It is the reverse of the Jewish tradition and does not follow their thinking.

They see what they call Original Virtue and both god and man as successes coming out of Eden and not Original sin which makes both man and god losers coming out of Eden.

Christian also have a glitch by calling Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

It looks like they prefer that man fell, while saying that the falling had to be as it was necessary to god's plan.

Stupid is as stupid does and Christians stupidly contradict themselves.

Regards
DL

What's funny is that Christians and atheists would both answer 'No'. — Virgo Avalytikh

Atheists would be right, FTPOV, and Christians would be wrong unless they hide behind their supernatural shield and poor math of Jesus being both 100% man and 100% god.

They stupidly break the law of the excluded middle and are to stupid or uncaring to repent and think correctly.

Regards
DL

The whole doctrine makes sense in its own terms, — unenlightened

How do you make sense out of a god that cannot reproduce without a human female?

How do you morally justify god coveting Mary and breaking his own commandment, cuckolding Joseph, producing a chimera half breed god and then becoming a deadbeat dad by dropping the kid and taking off?

Regards
DL

tim wood — tim wood

+ 1

We must suffer neophytes.

Regards
DL

also fully human. As the op well knows. — unenlightened

That is what Christians say, while also saying that all humans are born with Original sin.

Which is the lie?

Regards
DL