On another note, would it be accurate to say that Iran is in a proxy war with Ukraine?
_{(Sep 17, Oct 13, Nov 1, Nov 5, Nov 5, Nov 6, Nov 10, Nov 18, Nov 24, Nov 25, Nov 27, Nov 28, Dec 7, Dec 12, Jan 2, Jan 9, Jan 26)} — Jan 29, 2023

Iran smuggled drones into Russia using boats and state airline, sources reveal
^{— Martin Chulov, Dan Sabbagh, Nechirvan Mando · The Guardian · Feb 12, 2023}
Iran used boats, state airline to smuggle drones to Russia
^{— The Jerusalem Post · Feb 13, 2023}

Arguably, Iran is technically in a proxy war against Ukraine, yet saying so is kind of misleading (incidentally, analogous to some comments hereabouts). Iran has seen a bit of commotion lately. Could surely use some "friends". Sort of odd, but perhaps not surprising.

I think that "opinion" is quite well shown from the actions and the reasons given to those actions by the leaders of Russia. Putin's article Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ shows perfectly what he thought of the Ukrainian state. Among the multitude of other obvious examples. — ssu

Yep, and evidence/arguments have been posted throughout the thread already.

Besides which you're simply attempting your usual switch. The issue here [...] — Isaac

... isn't up to you to decide on others' behalf. :grin:

Ordinarily, people, including children, would mask up in public social settings, not at home for example (bubble), while learning more.

People were screamed at, called 'murderers' [...] — Isaac

... and there was "child abuse" screamery (which it isn't, but evokes other things), and some made a fine buck on masks (the :mask:-industrial complex), and elsewhere masking up turned into a mini-trend because then they'd worry less about pimples lipstick whatever. I guess you could schedule a study for when those kids are post-puberty to figure out how many turned into monsters or something. Did past :mask:'ing produce damaged years/generations?

And you wonder how they get to walk all over you... — Isaac

I cannot make sense of your blind obsequience. — Isaac

Hmm So that's what you made out of @EricH's comments.

, something Prasad got right was that the Ο-mutants became wicked at spreading, found fertile ground, but, fortunately, became less dangerous. :phew: ← need icon

On another note...

Something odd about the US... — Feb 7, 2023

Median price of hepatitis C drug Harvoni (Statista)

Cost of Insulin by Country (World Population Review); insulin was developed by a Canadian and a Scotsman a century ago, not new or anything, some will die in a month or something without insulin

Xarelto Prices (PharmacyChecker)

Per capita prescribed medicine spending (OECD)

Prices in the United States are higher than those in all comparison countries — ASPE

What's the deal with those prices anyway? I guess they affect health care. Apparently, there are other things where the US stands out moneywise.

There are various factors at play.
You don't want to wait a couple of years for studies to come out when there's an outbreak. Besides, masking up isn't exactly detrimental.
Often enough you'd see someone only covering their mouth (including on broadcasts/TV). Don't know what studies tried to account for masking up wrong, but people ought to know better.

Fortunately, it hasn't been as dangerous as the 2003 outbreak, which had a 10% fatality rate, and we're fortunate that such a deadly mutation hasn't emerged in this round. — Oct 19, 2022

By the way, there are influentials that some contrarians/fools/whoever will listen to.

How a Kennedy built an anti-vaccine juggernaut amid COVID-19
^{— Michelle R Smith · AP News · Dec 15, 2021}

Despite USA's larger military budget, Toti opines:

Who is the sleeping giant now?
^{— William Toti · The Hill · Feb 7, 2023}

Something odd about the US... Medicine and some kinds of services are more expensive in the US than most others. Also came up in the 2016 election run. An effect of capitalism or something? Plain supply and demand?

Belarus leader says he has been asked to seal a non-aggression pact with Ukraine
^{— Andrew Osborn, Mark Trevelyan · Reuters · Jan 24, 2023}

They are asking us not to go to war with Ukraine in any circumstances, not to move our troops there. They are proposing we conclude a non-aggression pact. — Lukashenko

For the past ten months, [Belarus/Lukashenko] has permitted Russia to base troops in Belarus and launch airstrikes from the country against Ukrainian targets. — Rudnik

No, I cannot comment on this right now. I do not have any information. — Peskov

Russia is trying in every possible way to draw Belarus directly into the war. Ukraine warns Minsk against any possible further aggressive plans, we confirm the absence of any aggressive intentions towards Belarus on our part. — Nikolenko

Seems unlikely, and might not mean a whole lot anyway. Any takers?

Can we compare a (toy) heaven and a (toy) universe?
We know our world; I guess heaven would fall back on definitions/uses.
Religions often enough have notions of heaven, said to be the best, the place to be.

There's something weird or off about the greater good theodicy.
If it's for the greater good, then what business have doctors/researchers/psychiatrists/etc trying to fix it?
Shouldn't it be left for that (presumably planned, trusted) greater good?
Mentioned good folks have managed to cure/relieve some maladies over time, others not so much.

Another of those sorts of reports:

Ukraine: Russia sending civilians through landmine fields to find safe routes
^{— Jerusalem Post, Reuters · Feb 1, 2023}

Would Belarus then be complicit in crimes / human rights violations?
Don't know if Belarus would allow independent investigators, but probably not monitors.

Putin says military must stop Ukrainian shelling of Russian regions
^{— Mark Trevelyan, Alexandra Hudson · Reuters · Feb 1, 2023}

Many people found themselves in a difficult situation, lost their homes, were forced to move to relatives or to temporary places of residence, faced interruptions in the supply of water, heat, and electricity. — Putin

(well then ... no, not The Onion)


, yeah, CBS reported it as well.

An off-the-books mercenary army is gaining power in Putin’s Russia
^{— Zachary B Wolf · CNN · Jan 30, 2023}
Inside the battle for Bakhmut, where Ukraine's tech-savvy troops say Russia treats men like meat
^{— Debora Patta, Steve Berriman, Tucker Reals · CBS News · Jan 31, 2023} — Jan 31, 2023

By "tech-savvy" they're referring to monitoring, recording, drones, ...
Apparently a good lot of the "zombies" are questionable hires by the mercenary groups.
Aren't there some human rights principles/edicts being blatantly violated here...?

Let's see what comments if any this can generate:

— Mearsheimer (paraphrased): Everyone should have known that Putin would have Russia attack Ukraine

— Others: Ukraine's defense and political dealings with the West ain't up to Putin to decide, and, besides, Ukrainian NATO membership wouldn't doom Russia to destruction ^{(Feb24, Mar18, Apr26, May7, Jun10, Oct27)}, let alone a Russia without Crimea

— Cynic: Bah, it's all just rhetoric, entitlement, propaganda, manipulation by everyone

Grabbing Crimea (2014) apparently was a surprise. Invading (2022) wasn't entirely a surprise ^{(2015, 2015, 2022)}.

Putin's Russia has been regressing ↘

:/

Russia’s Longest Standing Human Rights Organization Dissolved by State Courts
^{— Tony Spitz · Veuer · Jan 26, 2023 (1m:14s)} — Jan 26, 2023

An off-the-books mercenary army is gaining power in Putin’s Russia
^{— Zachary B Wolf · CNN · Jan 30, 2023}
Inside the battle for Bakhmut, where Ukraine's tech-savvy troops say Russia treats men like meat
^{— Debora Patta, Steve Berriman, Tucker Reals · CBS News · Jan 31, 2023}

Well, there are some degrees I guess...

outlawed (punishable by law)
loosely illegalized (can/will always find something?)
censored out
suppressed (like by independent publishers/media)
propagandized against
commonly scoffed at

Would it be worthwhile differentiating? (intentionally omitted "shoot on sight!")
I wouldn't say Chomsky "and a myriad of others" are being gagged. Besides, Chomsky ain't so easy to keep down. :)

Apparently, some are making a buck off the war with computer games:

Battlefront: Black Sea

Ukraine Defender

Squad



And some are using games to spread fakes:

Trolls are using this life-like video game to spread misinformation about the Ukraine war

Can't trust alleged footage, though fake game video is often a bit too "perfect". At the moment anyway.

Certainly. I am morally opposed to any system that is based on the use and threat of violence. — Tzeentch

Apart from mercenaries, sociopaths, dictators, ..., I'd think most share the sentiment.

What does that translate to, though, in real life, social life?

(I'm wary of thinking up idealized Utopias, would rather stick to ongoing realistic aspirations, but this ↑↓ stuff isn't about me personally.)

I would consider even a single person dying against their will to be an enormous cost that was unjustly imposed, on the moral ground that no person has the right to tell another to give their life against their will, under any circumstance. — Tzeentch

I would consider even a single person dying against their will to be an enormous cost that was unjustly imposed, on the moral ground that no person has the right to tell another to give their life against their will, under any circumstance. — Tzeentch

Isn't this more of an objection to most political/societal systems, except anarchy (maybe)?
Defenders don't really have much choice, as attackers do.

How do you imagine this playing out?

Wait for something to better regulate our interaction, say along the lines of 180 Proof's idea?
I suppose (theoretically) we might hope and wait for particular global change in the ethics of our neurotic, part-time rational homo sapiens (maybe even an evolutionary leap); yet that's quite high hopes, not quite realistic.

EDIT

Any one person is outnumbered by two with a different sentiment/attitude.
Individuals in a society could be ruled by organized thugs or a (transparent) democratic majority where all have a say.
Running with the least bad is rational enough, regardless of some personal sacrifices.

:fire: :up: (you made me disturb the house)

War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

By the way, until now at least, Ukrainian areas have had better (international) coverage by teams of journalists/investigators, be it Kyiv, areas taken back by Ukraine, whatever.

The 'evidence' that the defenders aren't is little more than overt apologetics. — Isaac

They aren't in to give up the land. (Though I'd worry about the creation of haters.)

But a 'who committed most war crimes' contest seems more than a little tasteless. — Isaac

It's what you brought up.

Anyway, according to the UN, EU, the defender, most really, the invaders/imposer ought to leave. A fair amount already posted to that, and some from the invaders/imposer to the contrary.


On another note, would it be accurate to say that Iran is in a proxy war with Ukraine?
_{(Sep 17, Oct 13, Nov 1, Nov 5, Nov 5, Nov 6, Nov 10, Nov 18, Nov 24, Nov 25, Nov 27, Nov 28, Dec 7, Dec 12, Jan 2, Jan 9, Jan 26)}

, what we have is a long thread (+ newspapers :smirk:) with observations, including and not limited to Crimea. Filtering most out in assessment and attempts to better understand the attacker/imposer and defender (like what they want / don't want), imposing the artificial restriction like so, suggests not really aiming to understand.

Frankly I don't care. They certainly ought to stop committing war crimes, but that's not the same thing as giving up territory. — Isaac

The defenders evidently aren't and war crimes (so far mostly) the attackers/imposers.

Nah, , no need to artificially limit an assessment/evaluation like so. And we take what we have when trying to better understand the attacker/imposer and defender, maybe what they want / don't want.
(Incidentally, Putin enrolling Ukraine into Russia would have been some achievement (resource-wise, politically, power-wise on the international stage, economically, popularity-wise at home, all that).)
Trajectories and trends matter too, like those mentioned above.

Posted prior in the thread? Others were. Anyway...

UN Human Rights reports dire human rights situation seven months after the start of the Russian Federation wide-scale armed attack on Ukraine
^{— Tanya Korol · UN Human Rights · Sep 27, 2022}
Olenivka prison massacre
^{— Wikipedia}

By the way, Holocaust Remembrance is today:

Putin blasts 'neo-Nazis' in Ukraine on Holocaust Remembrance Day
^{— AFP via Yahoo · Jan 27, 2023}

It seems power does indeed corrupt — Tzeentch

And elected officials like the Frump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Wendy Rogers, Ted Cruz, ..., look a bit like societal decline. Apparently, the Frump is now pushing the nuclear thing, suggesting that Biden sending nuclear weapons to Ukraine is next up.

So you think that was the first [...] — Isaac

Not relevant.

Virtue signalling — Isaac

Nope:

(spraying bombs, spreading destruction, letting their mercs run free, flattening towns, killing, shamming, re-enculturating, fear-mongering and calls for nationalism at home)
[...]
trajectory
[...]
ruthless oppressive regressive autocratic untrustworthy land-grabber
[...]
risky — Jan 23, 2023

Crimea — Isaac

You missed:

(spraying bombs, spreading destruction, letting their mercs run free, flattening towns, killing, shamming, re-enculturating, fear-mongering and calls for nationalism at home)
[...]
trajectory
[...]
ruthless oppressive regressive autocratic untrustworthy land-grabber
[...]
risky — Jan 23, 2023

I'm not a newspaper — Isaac

EU on government reshuffle: ‘We welcome Ukrainian authorities taking corruption allegations seriously’
^{— The Kyiv Independent · Jan 24, 2023}
Russia’s Longest Standing Human Rights Organization Dissolved by State Courts
^{— Tony Spitz · Veuer · Jan 26, 2023 (1m:14s)}

Mildly amusing despite the alternate interpretation:

German foreign office "sorry" for tweet taking a dig at Russia's African outreach with a leopard emoji
^{— CBS News · Jan 26, 2023}
Germany apologizes for leopard jibe that upset some Africans
^{— Gerald Imray · AP News · Jan 26, 2023}

Yes it's clear as day that its cut and dry. Don't be so pissy — Merkwurdichliebe

It's clear with tunnel vision, otherwise not so much.

Simple enough moral starting point: the invaders ought to go home (mercs included). — jorndoe

, check news, what do you think they've done and continue doing? Ain't going to keep repeating, but may add updates I suppose (spraying bombs, spreading destruction, letting their mercs run free, flattening towns, killing, shamming, re-enculturating, fear-mongering and calls for nationalism at home). Why do you think I posted the suggestion that they ought to leave anyway (affirming/denying omitted I noticed)? Actually, many draftees probably want to. Any "how" could follow any "ought".

There are children, future children, millions affected outside of Ukraine... — Isaac

And inside. A few already affected. Subsumption under Kremlin rule no good, wrong trajectory, what they don't want, but...repeating again. So, contrary to the UN, do you think it wrong that "the invaders ought to go home"? Had Ukraine just capitulated (or sought incorporation into Russia), the situation would be different. Probably more nervousness in Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia and elsewhere with the Kremlin expansion.^{(Putin, Patrushev, Matviyenko)} You can be sure that (would-be) autocrats + others are taking notes.

With millions, are you referring to Ukrainian farm production + export impact + consequences elsewhere? (As an aside, Putin's Russia apparently managed to sneak stolen farm goods off to Syria.) Are you thinking of a (nuclear) world war three? Something else?

Anyway, getting too close to complicity in Putin's Russia subsuming Ukraine isn't really the best, be it persons or continents. By conscience at least, I'd rather flirt with complicity in standing up to the ruthless oppressive regressive autocratic untrustworthy land-grabber Kremlin. I guess, analogous to the Uyghur situation and the old Canadian Indian residential school system (children here too). Fringe style, supposing there was enough anti-resistance or laissez-faire type attitude in the 1930s-40s, would Berlinian Hitler-Jugend have subsumed scouts and schools in Europe? More victims to be sure.

Why would anyone else care about Ukrainian sovereignty? — Isaac

Because, like Sweden Finland others, they don't want to be under Putin's thumb? Might be...risky for vocal individuals to try it + report back. We might ask what the refugees want to go home to. Had Russia been on another trajectory, perhaps buzzing with transparency freedom whatever, then things might have been different. We've seen it.

Okie, enough repetition already. It's what these comments are, over and again. Any new aspects? Developments? (I can appreciate 's suggestion for chessboard analysis, though lots of guesswork involved.)

_{And now to something completely different:
New Tesla Model To Include Undercarriage Thresher To Shred All Evidence Of Running Someone Over
^{— The Onion · Oct 24, 2022}}

blindly prostitute [...] that's all it is — Tzeentch

It's comments like these that make me take them less seriously here. (Sanctimonious indignation or something?)

That suggests that the most important moral issue here is where everybody is and who's in charge of what — Isaac

:D Let's stick to the topic at hand

_{(pattern (rhetoric): quote from original → reword (more generic, different scope, whatever) → comment on that instead)}

Simple enough moral starting point: the invaders ought to go home (mercs included).

Agreeable?

, could be just about anything I think (plus combinations), greed, demagoguery, populism, propaganda, rhetoric, grandeur, perception/promotion of ethics as weak, contrarianism, fear, ideological entrenchment, madness, ... Need not be coherent. I'm wary of generalizations though. Maybe case studies or examples is where it's at.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. — Jul 22, 1209

, just some observations...

Individual serial killers do theirs and may not need any more reason than impulse. The more people around, the more of those there will be, and the more potential victims will be available. Any (positive) ethics are secondary or worse.

In organizations/governments there need just be factors/ideas overriding (positive) ethics, and atrocities can take place. Whether such factors are bad ethics or something not particularly related to ethics, doesn't really matter. Hard/uncompromising adherence to (singular) ideologies could exemplify such factors.

Real life shouldn't be ignored (whatever is), doing the right shouldn't either (whatever ought be). We, humans in general I mean, do act impulsively (and opportunistically heartlessly egoistically), and sometimes get caught up in (inconsiderate or narrowminded or whatever) ideologies, so those are or can be ethically suspect.

I don't think such likes have changed all that much. Did ethics sort of stagger behind? I guess we should cultivate and nurture moral awareness, foster individual autonomous moral agency, caring, concern for others, embrace our humanity socially (— and hug a tree, too :grin:). Education and learning from history can help. Empathy helps, but is also insufficient, could be exploited, used for bad just the same.

The Holocaust had some ideological backgrounds and certainly had no concern for others, mainly Jews in this case. :sad:

"There are various estimates of the number of victims of the Spanish Inquisition during Torquemada's reign as Grand Inquisitor. Hernando del Pulgar, Queen Isabella's secretary, wrote that 2,000 executions took place throughout the entirety of her reign, which extended well beyond Torquemada's death.[20]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada

Who knows. Maybe Torquemada was involved in some hundreds.

, well, a thought experiment of sorts, imagine if Torquemada had acquired logistics/resources we know of today, more power. I'm thinking cruelties would have been higher accordingly.

Probably more complex, is my guess.
Neurotic homo sapiens...
With more communication, mobility, exposure, whatever, crazy spreads as easily as healthy.
With increased power per effort (like from horse riding to truck driving) variations become increasingly pronounced.
It's not so much the Enlightenment as it is plus/minus variations in ethics.
In a way, the Enlightenment was more about what is, than what ought be.
A bit like ethics (and humans) never kept up with other human developments.

What is your explanation for existence? — Benj96

If there was a discernible explanation for existence, then that would exist too. There can't be another reason for it all, for existence. And... Nevermind. Self-explanatory, then? An analysis in modal logic can't deduce anything in particular that's (unconditionally) necessary, perhaps other than the basic logic (identity/non-contradiction) we started out with in the first place, which shouldn't be that surprising.

In absence of anything and everything, there can't be constraints, conservation (physics), prevention, etc, either. Not much to talk about it would seem, not even anything preventing something from coming about.

OK, well, this pursuit seems kind of odd. Might be more fruitful to instead try categorizing whatever does exist.

I'll just run with some eclectic sort of realism for now, pick a bit here and there that makes sense. We might talk about some things, like spacetime, objects, processes, ... It's one place to start anyway. Some like to chat about objective versus subjective, i.e. existentially mind-independent versus existentially mind-dependent, but that sometimes gets weird. Chaos versus order? Maybe we could also delineate/demarcate where such stuff makes sense and not. Onwards ontology...

, nah, just upfront, transparent, cooperative (regardless of the Frump thing going on).

I guess they have a point

:up:

(oh hey, good to see you back)

(reported elsewhere, adapted by me, as the topic has come up prior in the thread)

Ukrainians figure out how to take down Russian bombs:
On Dec 30^th the General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces released its daily battlefield update, noting that their soldiers had shot down a significant number of Russian missiles and drones. Ukrainian forces were able to shoot down 58 cruise missiles as well as 23 unmanned aerial vehicles in a 24-hour period according to the General Staff. December was a difficult month for Ukraine as the country saw several major missile and drone attacks that not only damaged key infrastructure but also killed nearly a dozen civilians. On Dec 16^th a fresh barrage of missiles knocked out power in Ukraine and put the whole country under air raid alarm according to CNN journalists Olga Voitovych and Eliza Mackintosh.

They have set a goal to leave Ukrainians without light, water, and heat — Denys Shmyhal (Ukraine Prime Minister · Dec 16, 2022)

But Shmyhal also said something interesting, pointing out that Ukrainian air defense forces had shot down 60 of the 76 missiles fired at the country—a figure that has revealed a big change in the war. Whether it be with German-supplied Flakpanzer Gepards or with man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS), Ukraine has gotten very good at thwarting Russia's air campaign. Back in October of 2022 Russia's military strategists switched tactics and began targeting Ukraine's critical infrastructure as a way to weaken morale and collapse the country's will to fight. Russia's escalation initially worked well. One attack on Oct 10^th involved 80 missiles and 24+ Iranian Shahed kamikaze drones which killed 19 Ukrainians and wounded 100+ more according to the Atlantic Council.

nearly half of Ukraine's energy grid has been knocked out by recent Russian missile strikes — James McKinley (New York Times journalist · Nov 18, 2022)

Today Ukraine's energy grid remains fragile but it is still operating and still providing power to citizens because of the Ukrainian Armed Forces' ability to shoot down Russian missiles. Part of the reason why Ukraine has become so successful at shooting down Russian missiles is because of the equipment it has received from its Western allies. In early November, according to CBS News, Ukraine acquired its first shipments of National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems as well as its first Aspide Air Defense Systems.

The NASAMS systems had a 100 percent success rate in intercepting Russian missiles as the Kremlin continues its ruthless bombardment of Ukraine — Lloyd Austin (US Defense Secretary · Nov 16, 2022)

But it isn't just expensive equipment that has made a difference. Igla-S MANPADS have proven to be very adept at intercepting incoming Russian missiles. During the Dec 29^th attack, a MANPAD was filmed shooting down a low-flying Kh-101 cruise missile according to Tanmay Kadam of the Eurasian Times.

The missile was detected visually by a group of Ukrainian air defense personnel deployed in the zone of the flight of the missile, following which one of them fired on the missile from Igla MANPADS — Tanmay Kadam (Eurasian Times · Dec 29, 2022)

This wasn't the first time a cruise missile had been shot down by a Ukrainian soldier armed with a MANPAD. In October, Dmytro Shumskyi was credited with downing two Russian missiles in Chernihiv with an FIM-92 Stinger.

Questions:
How is this taken in the Kremlin? Should a change in their tactics be expected?
Seems clear enough that taking down the bombs have saved lives. Expensive, but surely worthwhile?

2022, June 14 — Hans Island is split between Canada and the Danish territory of Greenland. — Isaac

The infamous Whisky War. :)

2016, November 28 — Belgium and the Netherlands swap land near Lanaye and Oost-Maarland over the discovery of a headless body several years prior, which the Belgian authorities could not access without crossing Dutch territory. The border has been straightened out and now runs down the centre of the Meuse River.[6] The change took effect on 1 January 2018. — Isaac

The Meuse conflict was resolved easier than the San Juan wetland conflict, but at least Nicaragua abides by UN's verdict.

The list has a few items related to the USSR (past Kremlin rule).

To illustrate — Isaac

Moscow is further away still.

talk of Ukrainian agency and Ukrainian objectives is nothing but propaganda — Isaac

...? Nah.
Though, I'm wondering, is there an (implicit) argument against democracy ("majority dictatorship") here somewhere?

Controversies...

Putin Thanks Church for Supporting Ukraine Invasion in Christmas Message
^{— Evan Gershkovich, James Marson · The Wall Street Journal · Jan 7, 2023}
(↑ covers more than Putin)

Former Moscow-linked Church claims religious persecution as security raids heat up
^{— Scott McLean, Svitlana Vlasova, Matthias Somm · CNN · Jan 15, 2023}

Persecution of Christians in Ukraine?
National security concerns?
What's your take?

Seems unlikely that it's religious (to me at least), except politics has spilled into religious space with some force/fervor.
Perhaps analogous to...

Christians 'cannot stand idly by': Russian priest arrested after denouncing invasion of Ukraine
^{— Mike Thom · CHVN Radio · Mar 12, 2022}

Russia-Ukraine war: Priest detained for criticising Putin
^{— Aleem Maqbool · BBC · Jul 17, 2022}

Either way, persecution versus security, religious versus political, are easy controversies to raise, and derail.

So take the arbitrary border between Russia and Finland (1300 km or something).
One side of that line is ruled by a ruthless autocrat.
The other side is a democracy, observing fair respect for human rights.
As far as I can tell, the differences are stark enough.
(I suppose we might ask where people would prefer to relocate.)
So, the line may certainly be arbitrary in one sense, yet there's a clear enough political demarcation.
One of suppressive ruthless autocracy versus democracy and rights, and then some.
And that matters.
The otherwise arbitrary border also differentiates how people on each side live (or presently can live), and their trajectories, which matters in particular if one side wanted to take over the other.
In one sense arbitrary, in another not so much.