jorndoe

Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪baker
, check this post.

There are already situations where whatever vaccinations are mandatory and have been for some time. Like hospitals, nursing homes, kindergartens, schools, military, whatever. And there are situations where COVID-19 vaccines are being made mandatory, as per whatever current (scientific) recommendations. In some cases, frequent testing is accepted.

Similarly, standard protocols are implemented here and there, like restaurants, grocery stores, whatever. Commonsensical minor inconveniences — mask, distance, sanitize — yet has fools misbehaving.

Dragging all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculating them at gunpoint is a rather extraordinary measure beyond the above, one that you might expect would lead to violence (if the behavior we've seen from deniers thus far is an indication), might lead to secret cults hiding, who knows what. What if some of them are afraid fearful anxious, say, because of the long-running mis/dis/malinformation campaigns, or maybe just needle-phobic? Typically, health departments have some goal, like 80% immunized or whatever, but, maybe 100% will become the norm some time, depending on political thrust/will and scientific findings.
Coronavirus
A "high aim"? No, a most basic one. — baker

Sure, according to some anyway, but not particularly decidable/determinable like the medical matters are. I seem to remember posts/threads about this stuff here on the forums.

Truth trumps diversity. — baker

I meant this

There are historical/textbook case studies, and (cumulative) evidence, all that stuff, that we can learn from, we'd be fools not to — jorndoe

is relevant to

a functional society where all kinds of different people interact — jorndoe

Is the "meaning of life" thing (universally) truth-apt? This is the sort of thing where (some) people find whatever, and people have found whatever for centuries, and they all still haven't shown the one true "purpose of life". Unlike the tangible medical matters where we've learned lots, where nature has taught us and keep doing so.

This is supposed to be the whole point of life? — baker

Life is not a means to some (other) end.

Life is what you make of it, so make it a good one. — paraphrasing the good Doc Emmett Brown

If anything in particular, the "purpose of life" is living (it). Enjoy. :up:

"Back to the regularly scheduled program." ? :)
Coronavirus

Some recommend a bit more than 1m, but, anyway...
Coronavirus
people first need to be in the clear about "the big existential issues" and have a definitive answer to the meaning of life question. — baker

That's ... aiming rather high (unless I misunderstand, which is entirely possible).
There are historical/textbook case studies, and (cumulative) evidence, all that stuff, that we can learn from, we'd be fools not to.
Seems relevant for a functional society where all kinds of different people interact, yes?
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪James Riley
, it's easy to get pissed off with crap like this ...

^{• ‘So frustrating’: Doctors and nurses battle virus skeptics (Oct 8, 2020)

• Swedish officials report ‘escalated’ threats and hate in coronavirus debate (Feb 19, 2021)

• Joe Mercola: An antivaccine quack tycoon pivots effortlessly to profit from spreading COVID-19 misinformation (Jul 26, 2021)

• Parent rips face mask off teacher in confrontation at school, Texas district says (Aug 17, 2021)

• London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021)

• A Teen Called For Masks In School After His Grandma Died Of COVID. Adults Mocked Him (Sep 10, 2021)

• UPDATE: Shock in Germany after cashier shot dead in Covid mask row (Sep 21, 2021)}
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪James Riley
, same here. Though, over at the dentist they told me of a skirmish with a mask-denier at the grocery store. It's not like motorcycle racing up and down the isles was ever allowed.

"Our patience is wearing thin" (Sep 9, 2021)
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪baker
, most doctors have taken an oath I think. Nurses/medics etc aren't far off that. There are some related laws, like malpractice and negligence.
The verbiage of these sorts of things are often attempts at capturing ethics, though, technically, counter-examples can usually be found (yet another topic in ethics).
Anyway, despite cynicism there are drivers and concerns.
Say, if my neighbor was an anti-vaxxer, then that doesn't mean I'd like to see them suffer/die or rejected by the hospital. I might have a chat with them.

What does the right thing consist of anyway...?

SARS-CoV-2 should be left to replicate propagate mutate unchecked with no containment efforts, leaving whatever in its wake? — jorndoe

(n) ☣

Drag all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculate them at gunpoint?

(n) (some have expressed things a bit in this direction)

Somewhere in between?

Treating others with dignity, trying to dispel fears, educating and keeping dis/mis/malinformation in check, ... (y) — jorndoe

The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe

If rejecting "mainstream media" means turning to garbage, then it's neither smart nor doing the right thing. Wary of all the bullshit. :fire: Allow revising the outlook on the matter. (y)

^{• Persuasion, not coercion or incentivisation, is the best means of promoting COVID-19 vaccination (Jan 26, 2021)

• The vaccinated are angry. That's understandable but unproductive, health experts say (Aug 8, 2021)

• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)

• To protect our kids from COVID-19, we have to be grown-ups (Aug 16, 2021)}
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Responding to something not asked,
↪MondoR
. Try again.

avoid listening to b.s — MondoR

Done. Now what?

Do your own research — MondoR

Done. What did "your own research" consist in exactly, that others should believe you? Anything like Robert Steele? What you've posted thus far? :snicker:
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
So
↪MondoR
, in your opinion, SARS-CoV-2 should be left to replicate propagate mutate unchecked with no containment efforts, leaving whatever in its wake? If so, then how much of medicine would you ditch altogether anyway?
Coronavirus
Apropos

double standards — jorndoe

or hypocrisy ...

What I find especially disingenuous about the vaccine deniers is their arrogance at disbelieving immunology and other medical experts. Yet, if their child was sick or they themselves needed emergency medical treatment, how quickly would they do exactly what those same experts told them to do? — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
What I find especially disingenuous about the vaccine deniers is their arrogance at disbelieving immunology and other medical experts. Yet, if their child was sick or they themselves needed emergency medical treatment, how quickly would they do exactly what those same experts told them to do? — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Coronavirus
Seems rather uncharitable. Why would you do that? — Isaac

Spidey sense? But you're right, just assuming so was uncharitable.
Coronavirus
Reading this, isn't there a chance that some traditional vaccine, followed later by an mRNA vaccine, could give extra immunity?

New Studies Find Evidence Of 'Superhuman' Immunity To COVID-19 In Some Individuals (Sep 7, 2021)

Haven't come across much on this line of research. Then again, the world is noisy.
Coronavirus
Wuhan — MondoR

raising serious questions about their impartiality — Lancet scientists who trashed Covid leak theory 'have links to Wuhan lab'

What if we, for the sake of argument, replace that ↑ quote with something like "which gave them a unique insight into the lab"?
So, starting out with suggesting they're honest, whereas the article starts out with suggesting they're dishonest, sort of like "innocent until proven guilty" I suppose.
Don't know what those scientists have said ("impartiality"), but the Sun article is quite circumstantial, conducive to one-sided speculation, insufficient to draw any conclusions.
That said, of course the Wuhan lab leak theory remains on the table, just not with the added thrust you suggest
↪MondoR
.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
A daily pill to treat Covid could be just months away, scientists say (Sep 24, 2021)

Maybe the anti-vaxxers would be more amenable to this sort of thing?
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪MondoR
, I'd rather meet SARS-CoV-2 armed (i.e. vaccinated) than unarmed.
The unarmed has a higher risk of becoming a virus replication/propagation/mutation factory. ☣
And higher risk of long COVID-19, getting (seriously) sick, up to and including death. ☠
Seems foolish not to, and also remains the general recommendation of doctors and hospitals.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
@Isaac, to be honest, these varying views can sometimes be illuminating in whichever ways, so in that respect feel free to keep it up. Of course there's also some threshold, readily exemplified by the flat-Earthers.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Ha! That's brilliant. You're citing a study showing how radicals refuse to believe in the possibility of error as evidence that we should accept what our governments tell us without question. — Isaac

Nah, wasn't citing. In all honesty, I was copy/pasting. (My mistake, gave you something to latch onto, sorry.)

Some incorrigibility among anti-vaxxers has been seen. In some cases, even in their death beds at the hospital. Fortunately, some have also regretted their (deadly) ways, though their pleas seem to have swayed few. The anti-vaxxer machine and the sheeplets referring to it, keeps rolling.

I'm met with a wall of infantile simplicity, fixated on the utter truth of a single narrative. — Isaac

:grin: Hilarious. The righteous martyr eh? It's not quite a narrative as such. The evidence is the authority on the ground, tells the story. Maybe you're up for doing a comprehensive meta-study? Effectiveness, risks, that stuff? We could make bets on the outcome. Where would you place yours?

Some measure of common sense isn't to be scoffed at. The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe
Coronavirus
personal judgements — Isaac

Checking double standards.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Are you really so bromidic that you can't think of any other option than the system we have or witch doctors? — Isaac

:D I was inquiring about the genetic fallacy.

I think they'd be happier with a system guided more around the public good and less around private profiteering. — Isaac

You do eh? That's a rather unspecific/abstract, possibly overlapping, response. (Personally, I have no problem with paying taxes, if that's of any relevance.) Yet, I'm not convinced of your take. If I was to guess, it might more so be your own preference. Some incorrigibility among anti-vaxxers has been seen. Whether or not a vaccine is produced in this or that factory may not make much difference to those people. It's possible that closer involvement might make a difference, and that'd be moving into socializing type efforts.
Coronavirus
You've heard of nuance! — Isaac

I have. So ...

I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry — Isaac

... wasn't a blanket statement? (Far from it, perhaps?)

Depends entirely on the circumstances, the severity of the disease in question, the urgency of the situation. — Isaac

Explicit examples have been given.
Coronavirus
Do they. I though only diabetics who don't take their meds die. I didn't realise a mental sate was so deadly. — Isaac

:roll:

Eli Lilly and Company, Novo Nordisk A/S, Sanofi S.A. = pharmaceutical industry, kind of big too.

I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry — Isaac

Say, how distrusting would you be if you caught meningitis and/or syphilis and/or rabies? And a kid (of yours)? (Consulting immediately with the family doctor / whoever at a local hospital, is realistic in our case, pharmaceuticals/vaccinations :gasp: might be involved.)
_{Are we still talking (blanket) "Big Pharma", Machiavellian profiteering, creating dependents, hoaxery, Nazi manipulation, lies by "them", creeping authoritarianism, or whatever, and a couple quotes that exposed some problems?}

There's no magic SARS-CoV-2/pandemic cure. There is some number of responses that each can do theirs, and so we do, or responsible adults do anyway. Some are rather commonsensical (except to some incorrigible "skeptics" apparently). By now, there are a few reports weighing effectiveness versus risks, some (historical, textbook) case studies, whatever, and so we learn and act accordingly, we'd be fools not to.

Then there was that 3rd Japanese fellow (RIP):
Third person dies in Japan after taking contaminated Moderna coronavirus vaccine (Sep 8, 2021)
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Mistrust of the pharmaceutical industry and government scientists is among the top reasons for vaccine hesitancy. — Isaac

You sure they're converging on a genetic fallacy? You think they'd be happier with witchdoctors brewing things out in the woods?
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Fairly consistent North American findings:

COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States (Jul 30, 2021)

Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases, Hospitalizations, and Deaths, by Vaccination Status — 13 U.S. Jurisdictions, April 4–July 17, 2021 (Sep 17, 2021)

Vaccinated make up minority of severe COVID-19 hospitalizations in Minnesota (Sep 22, 2021)

Mapping America’s hospitalization and vaccination divide (Sep 23, 2021)

Hospitalizations [Ontario] (Sep 24, 2021 - as of typing)

By now, denial seems a bit lame.
Coronavirus
I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry — Isaac

Bit hasty there? Distrusting diabetics die. :death:
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Pathogens ☣ have been with us since, well, forever or something.

Questions that seem relevant here by now:

In the history of ☣ outbreaks, how %many were (ab)used for (enduring political) power grabs?
Might be easier to find some examples of some opportunistic profiteering here and there?
And downright evil examples of someone intently creating an ☣ outbreak to some Machiavellian (or worse) end?
What did in fact take place, what does history tell us?

Pertinently, what exactly would you expect or (realistically) want in case of an ☣ outbreak?

Evident/justified responses would carry far more weight than (wild or baseless) claims and conspiracy theories.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Ya' took a wrong turn somewhere,
↪MondoR
.
The auditions to The Twilight Zone (or whatever it is) are over that'a way (pointing).
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
That's just the usual run off at the mouth,
↪MondoR
.
Some things are known, and there are (historical) case studies.
Coronavirus
↪NOS4A2
, you asked

How’re those “social responses” working out? — NOS4A2

There were some sample moves/results. Subsequent to ...

Dump the blinkers [...] — jorndoe

We are still talking SARS-CoV-2/pandemic, right...?
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Here's the thing: Why don't the vocal pro-vaccers (who claim to be taken hostage by the unvaccinated) put their money where their mouth is and limit health care (and other things) for the unvaccinated?

If the vocal pro-vaccers believe they are so right, so superior to the unvaccinated, then what on earth is stopping them from passing laws in accordance with that? — baker

"Doctor do no harm", "doctor help the sick", all that? Empathy/decency towards the ignorant/fearful/ungrateful? Ethics? I'm thinking there are a few reasons anyway.

^{• ‘So frustrating’: Doctors and nurses battle virus skeptics (Oct 8, 2020)

• Many COVID-19 patients insist ‘it’s not real’ until they die, nurse says (Nov 17, 2020)

• Nurses Are Dealing With Patients Who Think COVID-19’s A Hoax (Nov 25, 2020)

• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)

• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)

• ‘Crisis teams’ sent to hospitals in Oregon hard hit by COVID (Aug. 25, 2021)

• Largest real-world study of COVID-19 vaccine safety published (Aug 26, 2021)

• Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital (Sep 16, 2021)

• A New Nurse Struggles to Save Patients in a New COVID Surge (Sep 16, 2021)}
Coronavirus
How’re those “social responses” working out? — NOS4A2

Could be better, could be worse?

^{• The 3 Simple Rules That Underscore the Danger of Delta (Jul 1, 2021)

• States with low vaccination numbers had Covid-19 case rates last week 3 times higher than others where people are fully vaccinated (Jul 12, 2021)

• Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds (Jul 29, 2021)

• Confirmed Cases of COVID-19 Following Vaccination in Ontario: December 14, 2020 to August 7, 2021 (Aug 16, 2021)

• To protect our kids from COVID-19, we have to be grown-ups (Aug 16, 2021)

• Vaccinations Against COVID-19 May Have Averted Up To 140,000 Deaths In The United States (Aug 18, 2021)

• Largest real-world study of COVID-19 vaccine safety published (Aug 26, 2021)

• Massive randomized study is proof that surgical masks limit coronavirus spread, authors say (Sep 1, 2021)

• CDC finds unvaccinated 11 times more likely to die of COVID (Sep 11, 2021)}

Such actions suggest people are more of a problem than Covid-19. — NOS4A2

There are definitely problematic humans out there. (Are you one of them?)

^{• The Wisconsin pharmacist who sabotaged 500 vaccine doses believes the Earth is flat and that the sky is a shield to stop us seeing God, according to FBI documents (Feb 2, 2021)

• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)

• London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021)

• UPDATE: Shock in Germany after cashier shot dead in Covid mask row (Sep 21, 2021)}
Coronavirus
Dump the blinkers,
↪NOS4A2
. :) SARS-CoV-2 replicates, mutates, propagates unchecked wherever it finds fertile grounds, leaving a trail of victims (and taking up resources). And that's not merely a personal thing, but a social thing with consequences, whether you ignore so or not. Social troubles that involve social responses. (Not that masking up is much of a big deal.)
Coronavirus
↪NOS4A2
, so, no where in your thinking does SARS-CoV-2/pandemic show up? (It's as irrelevant as masking up is trivial?)
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪Isaac
, please don't quit on my account. (Wide disagreement among subject matter experts? Consensus means little to nothing?)

↪Harry Hindu
, sure, I suppose the "personal freedom" thing can make a point of sorts. It's just that SARS-CoV-2 doesn't care about anyone's freedom. The virus replicates propagates mutates unchecked in whatever fertile grounds, leaving victims in its wake, and that's a social thing with consequences as well as personal.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪Wayfarer
:o cynical, that r/HermanCainAward thing

These individual stories do not produce conversions. These aren’t situations where anti-vaxxers learn their lesson, get vaccinated, and save themselves. — Lili Loofbourow
What this massive record of human suffering really illustrates (in all its startling, repetitive sameness) is how seamlessly anti-vax communities reconcile themselves to the deaths their convictions will perpetuate. — Lili Loofbourow
Chilled though I’ve been by how this subreddit can rejoice at a death, I’m somehow no less chilled by how easily the bereaved normalize their losses. A 35-year-old man with three young children and a free vaccine available should not be dead! There is astonishingly little recognition of this. — Lili Loofbourow

The incorrigibility is as striking as the cynicism, though.
Some of those folk are both entrenched and have their "warriors" (as we've observed).

schadenfreude — Lili Loofbourow

Apparently, this is now called "vaxenfreude".
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪frank
, yeah, some mistakes have been made (especially in retrospect). As long as we learn from them, including those having made the mistakes.
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
Is it possible for everyone to be subject matter experts in it all...? Not really. I suppose we could quit having family doctors, engineers to engineer bridges, etc. Some measure of trust and cooperation is warranted and desirable, in tandem with responsibility and accountability.

Hospital to replace doctors with parents who have done their research (The Science Post; Jul 23, 2021)

(I sure as heck ain't gonna' take the advice of someone over in The Shoutbox over an established international panel of subject matter experts, and call it a day.)
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
:grin: Could always take a look
↪Isaac
, like Santayana suggested, whatever (medical) lessons learned, historical case-studies, all that? Doesn't have any dependency on me. By the way, "uneven" distribution is a problem. Treating others with dignity, trying to dispel fears, educating and keeping dis/mis/malinformation in check, ... (y)
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
There are (historical) case studies regarding pandemic protocols. I recall coming across some out there. They tend to inform (history is a great teacher, Santayana comes to mind). Some measure of common sense isn't to be scoffed at. The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile:
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers
↪Ambrosia
, when you dismiss majority evidence with a handwave, then what difference do facts make to you? When you reject or ignore reasoning, then what difference does argument make to you? Nothing much, and with that you terminate dialogue, rather than discuss. :shrug:

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