Consciousness attempting to self-comprehend has troublesome self-reference...
Analogous to a map being part of its own territory.
Does that mean there's an information horizon somewhere?

There are going to be a lot of exploded heads if Trump wins in 2024. — frank

And some facepalms. :)

The Voter-Fraud Hunt in Texas Just Blew Up in Republicans’ Faces (Oct 21, 2021)

It’s my belief that they were trying to get cases of Democrats doing voter fraud. And that just wasn’t the case. — Eric Frank

Was he looking for a celebrity or a political group as a whole? I don’t know what he meant by bigger fish. — Eric Frank

Maybe a "Big Lie" type thing.

The Big Money Behind the Big Lie (Aug 9, 2021)

I guess we might consider two cases:

(≠) the experience ≠ the experienced (the Sun, other people, extra-self world, ...)
(=) the experience = the experienced (feelings, impulses, self, ...)

Say, when I experience my neighbor, the neighbor isn't identical to my experiences thereof (≠).
And, when I experience joy, the joy itself is the experienced (=).

So:

• subjective idealism (solipsism) is mistaking = for ≠
• hallucination is mistaking ≠ for =

Since experiences are involved in both cases, subjective idealism is an easy (gross) pitfall/trap.
Under the (ordinary) assumption that we're sufficiently similar, each of our introspections might also be sufficiently similar, so we might learn about others via introspection (like empathy).
The extra-self world is normally associated with a "physicalistic" reality, filled with all kinds of wibbly-wobbly interaction/transformation.

Errors are can be found either way, so I'm thinking that includes mysticism and weird introspective experiences (perhaps in particular); it's not like we're "perfect" perceivers or anything.



No one-size-fits-all answer I guess; sometimes, sometimes not?
My 2¢s on this quiet weekend; your mileage may vary.

:up:
Ongoing science/medicine has given us marvels, only to be thrown out by some kooky thinking. :roll:

Some elementary schools have a weekly dental hygiene thing.
The kids are tested for having brushed their teeth in the morning and get points accordingly.
Periodically, some reward is given to those having gotten a good score.
Simple reward-oriented system.

I suppose, open capitalist societies with relevant legislation sort of auto-reward and punish companies that manage to stick to :up: and avoid :down:.
Capitalism itself knows no ethics, though.
Maybe the punishment part has to be up'd to be proportionally effective, in some cases anyway.

Hey that may actually be predictive, .
I suppose ethical concerns might be raised (in particular) if it would all be on public record.
I'm guessing surgeon Ben Carson would get a good score.

Greater than 99% consensus on human caused climate change in the peer-reviewed scientific literature (Oct 19, 2021)

Tu quoque, ? :roll: Sorry, it's not the case that "anything goes". Do get vaccinated. :up: :smile:

, cognitive biases and such — they come to the fore in the public square, when exchanging ideas, arguments, and such — don't want to transfer those as well.

But in any case, I'm opposed to mandatory childhood vaccination too, always have been. — Isaac

Right, ideology.

I need a substantially stronger reason to dismiss expert opinion than that. — Isaac

Select opinions. Means to an ideological end.

@Isaac, seems clear enough that you're coming in from a rather ideological angle (no, can't just shut down media :smile:). Pharma, for one, receives your blanket :fire: distrust (period), yet is good enough for others, going by your comments. The rest is then a matter of attempting to justify vaccine-denial, means to an end.

Meanwhile, there's a public crisis, where the pathogen isn't really bad, just bad enough, this time around, and doing the right thing generally is socially dependent.
So, now what? Do the right thing (like help stomping the pathogen down)? Cancel membership of society? Something else?

(There are scores of mad/ideological anti-vaxxeries out there, spreading and lapping up dis/mal/misinformation/bullshit; probably best to distance from those.)

I don't think a single person involved in this thread would, under normal circumstances, assume corporations act for the public good. — Isaac

Nor for the public bad either, presumably?
I suppose, in capitalism, supply and demand type mechanisms + profit-maximization drive what corporations do. As noted somewhere, GlaxoSmithKline got busted and paid substantially. :up:
Having disregarded the shaman out in the woods, maybe government-run research + production would do? Just established universities? Well, no, we still get into Us-versus-Them narratives, or at least that's what it seems like. (Even though "They" aren't quite Kafkaesque, ghostly entities.)
How many (and what sort of) offenses to render blanket distrust/dismantling and what would a realistic solution look like anyway? As to the ethical dimension, a project to cultivate and nurture moral awareness?

Do people believe internet nutjobs because they've lost faith in mainstream media, or have people lost faith in mainstream media because of internet nutjobs? — Isaac

Or neither, as seemed to have been the case with the example patient mentioned earlier?

Ban Facebook, ban Twitter, ban Instagram. That'd be a start. The damage they've done is beyond reckoning. — Isaac

:gasp:

What the ..., ?
We were just chatting about regular fellows becoming infected with virulent pseudo-information, and sure enough, a bunch of influential creeps are doing just that: polluting "the airways". (Did you check yet?)
I suppose that can happen when "mainstream media" is replaced with garbage, and the regular fella' doesn't read Nature journal papers — and really shouldn't have to.
Keep exposing creeps. Not a "psychological game", "hand-waiving", ... It's part of the pandemic story. You're free to comment on how to improve the situation. Or, is that impossible?

I'm the only voice — Isaac

By all means, keep it up. And do get vaccinated. ;)

243012770_1310505819406426_3879163455009871205_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_eui2=AeEVEHidSEdvxR3EWqD7WIJHte2dD0oZNIC17Z0PShk0gPcKFJIhESxJcphu9Wz8100&_nc_ohc=gyAI3_QzvfcAX-TY4FT&_nc_ht=scontent.fmid3-1.fna&oh=58c08d5d8d717355094ac0e9fd415718&oe=617B1780 — The Opposite

Come again? :D

Except, , not all "mainstream media" reports are bullshit and pseudo-information.
Inflated or blanket distrust can be wacky just the same. Perhaps even paranoid? Not everything and everyone's McDoucheCanoe, and not all reports are technical journal papers.
You're free to check up on the creepy dozen, Mercola, and Willner yourself of course.
In fact, I say expose them. (As was done, to an extent.) Why not?

Hannah Arendt - Disinformation and Democracy (Aug 6, 2020)

• 12 prominent people opposed to vaccines are responsible for two-thirds of anti-vaccine content online: report | The Disinformation Dozen (Mar 24, 2021)

• Joe Mercola: An antivaccine quack tycoon pivots effortlessly to profit from spreading COVID-19 misinformation (Jul 26, 2021)

• CNN tracked down a super-spreader of Covid-19 misinformation. See how he reacted (Aug 5, 2021)

• This Woman Secretly Runs One of the World's Biggest Anti-Vax Websites From Her House (Aug 12, 2021)

• Anti-vaccine chiropractors rising force of misinformation (Oct 8, 2021)

Don't think they've done anything illegal, but "we know where you live". ;)

Stick to reading reputable journals and expert opinion. — Isaac

The more of them the better, giving more weight, and history, context, ability to spot apparent anomalies/outliers, overview. I just don't think everyone has time (or knowledge/skills/inclination) to do that, not if we're talking technical papers anyway (many wouldn't know where to look).

It's on a scale. — jorndoe

Reuters and Associated Press, for example, seem good. Or just good enough perhaps?

People hear about it from news sources they already don't trust. — frank

There sure are plenty of sources around. Distrust can also be fed by questionable sources. :meh:

(Wasn't there a song called "'round and 'round we go" (kid's song)...? 1980s maybe?) :)

There's just a community that's soaked in misinformation. — frank

I've come across similar stories. It's not unique.

With online filtering, raging discussions about censoring versus free speech, all that, sites like bitchute·com, banned·video, rumble·com, orwell·city have become popular homes for "the real unfiltered news" — read: pseudo-information — presented like whatever "mainstream media" you might come across.

It's on a scale.

Publishers like The Epoch Times blends subtle suggestions, select styles of loaded verbiage, misrepresentations, pseudoscience, hasty generalizations, conspiracy theories, unsubstantiated accusations, and less biased, more straight material, and they have a few subscribers. They're just one stop over from pseudo-information sites like those above.

Because of the amount of crud available from several sources, people sometimes tend to pick whatever confirms existing beliefs or biases, regardless of accuracy (or much else), altogether readily giving multiple vectors of propagation, forming an ad hoc polluted landscape peppered with destabilizing ulterior motives or what-have-you.

If rejecting "mainstream media" means turning to garbage, then it's neither smart nor doing the right thing, and that's apparently (happily and ragingly) happening — fertile grounds for bullshit, dis/mal/misinformation, and propaganda. And so it goes, systemic unreliability.

What's regular (perhaps unsuspecting) fella' to do?

For every other mandatory vaccine, there is a safety net for the case that something goes wrong, but not for the covid vaccines. — baker

That's not quite accurate.

Canada: Vaccine Injury Support Program (VISP) (modeled after a compensation scheme available in Quebec since the late 1980s)
Israel: Vaccine injury compensation: the Israeli case
UK: Vaccine Damage Payment
USA: Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP)

In July 2021, Tommie Crum, Kirsten Mooney, and Birendra R Tiwari apparently identified 17 countries operating well-established vaccine injury compensation programs.

WHO: No-fault compensation programme for COVID-19 vaccines is a world first

(y) Well said (err written)

Why COVID vaccines didn’t win a science Nobel this year (Oct 7, 2021)

, have you bothered checking historical (textbook) case studies?
It's not like someone just came up with outbreak protocols last year.
There's precedence, long history, subject matter experts have a large body of material, ...
So, no, it's not just @Benkei-says-@AJJ-says. :roll:

Caren White opines ...

Trump is Showing Us What His Second Term Would Look Like (Oct 3, 2021)

Hmm... , if someone were to say
"you must severely spank your kids every day, or they'll turn into immoral losers, and, besides, they probably did something wrong anyway"
then I'm thinking most would say that's not the right thing to do, i.e. passing judgment, a bad starting point.
I don't think you'll find that in the Quran (or the Bible, Vedas, Avesta), it's just an example.

, the 10 commandments in the Bible may be the best known example (in the West).
Most people can evaluate those.
I suppose, in a way, the Adam + Eve + Serpent + Fruit and Abraham + Isaac + Sacrifice stories could suggest abandonment of autonomous moral agency (to adherents), though it depends on how they're read — ambiguities, another can of worms.


(y)
By the way, there's more to say about (programmable) rule-following, eisegesis, and such, which seems relevant to divine command theory and theological voluntarism.


, well, yes, contradictions are explosive, if that's what you mean.
All bets are off, a whole other can of worms. :meh:


, you mean it's all redundant confuzzlement, that could just be put into one statement and be done with? :)
But, hey, arguments are so en vogue these days.


, I suppose there are semantics involved here.
We might say that, in principle, autonomous moral agency is a prerequisite for (would-be) autonomous actors.
In analogy, we don't allow hazards to roam free in kindergartens either.



Maybe autonomous moral agency can be thought of as a kind of know-how?
Except, under normal circumstances, we tend to assume other people can figure out the right thing to do by default, absent whatever concerns of course.
(By the way, it's not so much my argument, as it just seems intuitive to me.)


, right, yes, coincidental congruence, ...
A bit technical, though. :)
But 2 could fail on that.

As far as I can see there's a potential cohort of 150 for whom the risk is 1. — Isaac

Nah, not 1 beforehand.
Kids are an example of where an assessment has led to caution, hence ineligible (as of typing).
Whatever factors continue to be assessed; not just for COVID-19.

Uhm...

A quick read regarding "the distance" between science/mathematics and the general public, exemplified with the pandemic:

What we've got here is failure to communicate – and adequately educate! (Keith Devlin; MATH VALUES; Oct 1, 2021)

Unfortunately, "the distance" itself invites noise, distrust, ... I'm sure many here already know, but, anyway, here's Devlin.

Oh, 1, 2, 3 isn't on the usual modus ponens form, please take your syllogism-hat off.

The delta wave is waning. You probably only have a week's worth of mileage left. — frank

'bout time. :clap: Only a week, tho'?

Reiterated a few times by now ...

I've already mentioned that the evidence is the ground authority. And we'd be fools not to learn from it. — jorndoe

The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe

But you want to make it about me, ? Cool. :) (old comment)

The BMJ article is more measured — Isaac

(y)

the one you're after — Isaac

?

That said, of course the Wuhan lab leak theory remains on the table, just not with the added thrust you suggest — jorndoe

the Chinese state — Apollodorus

Not that it matters, but I'm no fan personally.

REVEALED — Daily Mail Online

calling into question their impartiality — Daily Mail Online

, The Sun already ran an article about that, posted here on the forum.

As per this old comment, I'd watch out for the slant they put on their ("impartial") articles.
(And with "REVEALED", now a bit pseudo-sensational, too.)

not listening — baker

‘The virus is painfully real’: vaccine hesitant people are dying – and their loved ones want the world to listen (Sep 14, 2021) ← to listen

What role, if any, do the machinists of the long-running anti-vaxxer machines play? Do they assume any responsibility (of avoidable suffering/death)? Do they care about the consequences of their yelling? I don't recall them telling the friends/families of ☣ victims that they're sorry anyway.


_{• 12 prominent people opposed to vaccines are responsible for two-thirds of anti-vaccine content online: report (Mar 24, 2021)
• The Disinformation Dozen (Mar 24, 2021)
• Covid anti-vaxxers: 'Shut down fake news sites,' begs daughter (Aug 6, 2021)}

COVID-19 must be eliminated, not become endemic, if America is to survive (Oct 3, 2021)

Might be a bit late now.

White terror: Millions of Americans say they'd support violence to restore Trump to power (Oct 1, 2021)

Weird.

Incidentally scrolled by the other day:

I don’t want to play Study Wars with you. Can you throw studies at me such that your view becomes definitively correct? Because in my view that’s what you need to do in order to justify bothering people to misery and death with oppressive mandates. — AJJ

You'd most likely lose out. ;)

How about taking a look at what actually takes place, then?

• Anatomy of our battle against COVID-19 (Jun 2, 2021)

And there are historical (textbook) case studies. Common sense is allowed, too, ya' know.

• lockdowns can save lives (+ needless suffering)
• lockdowns have socio-economic and psychological effects
• lockdowns and quarantines work in containment situations
• the more wide-spread the pathogen, the less effective the lockdown (planning needed)
• non-compliance with lockdowns + protocols (mask, distance, sanitize) have an effect

So, make lockdowns decisive, swift, not pro-longed (especially) in containment situations.

Doesn't have much to do with fear-mongering panic or evil tyrant authoritarian government feeding on your misery or conformism for conformism's sake or whatever bullshit; has to do with learning from evidence, common sense, doing the right thing, being socially responsible, not being a loose cannon, and history is a fine teacher.

, you offered roughly nothing, and called my comment shallow rhetoric? :D

I've already mentioned that the evidence is the ground authority. And we'd be fools not to learn from it.

Maybe you and I could offer the same to those harmed/killed by the virus and those harmed/killed by the vaccine? Plus their loved ones? "Concerted efforts did its best to both contain and avoid this tragedy." (We could also mention the vaccinated that lived to see another day I suppose, unless that'd be insensitive.)

Sep 14, 2021 :sad: ‘The virus is painfully real’: vaccine hesitant people are dying – and their loved ones want the world to listen

Either way, you've been given plenty of information by now, but oddly brush it off with a hand wave. Are you looking for something else altogether...? Of course, if you're afraid or fearful or anxious or something, then that's understandable.


^{Apr 04, 2020 :death: 11 Days After Fuming About a Coughing Passenger, a Bus Driver Died From the Coronavirus
Nov 17, 2020 :gasp: Many COVID-19 patients insist ‘it’s not real’ until they die, nurse says
May 26, 2021 :sad: Study confirms longer-term lung damage after COVID-19
Jul 25, 2021 :death: LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus
Aug 05, 2021 :death: A Texas Republican leader who repeatedly mocked masks and vaccines has died of COVID-19
Aug 08, 2021 :death: Rightwing radio host and anti-vaxxer dies of Covid
Aug 09, 2021 :sad: More than 50 long-term effects of COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis
Aug 16, 2021 :up: To protect our kids from COVID-19, we have to be grown-ups
Aug 19, 2021 :death: Unvaccinated Mom’s Dying Wish: ‘Make Sure My Children Get Vaccinated’
Aug 19, 2021 :death: Man refused to get vaccinated even after his own father died of COVID – now he’s dead from COVID too
Aug 27, 2021 :death: Georgia cop who pushed people to take horse dewormer instead of vaccine dies from COVID-19
Aug 28, 2021 :death: Texas Anti-Mask 'Freedom Defender' Caleb Wallace Dies Of COVID-19
Aug 30, 2021 :death: Conservative Radio Host Who Called Himself 'Mr. Anti-Vax' Dies from COVID After 3 Week Battle
Sep 01, 2021 :gasp: Verbal and physical attacks on health workers surge as emotions boil during latest COVID-19 wave
Sep 13, 2021 :death: Right-Wing Anti-Vax Radio Host Who Mocked AIDS Victims Dies Of COVID-19
Sep 16, 2021 :death: Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital
Sep 16, 2021 :death: A California father described his regret after his unvaccinated pregnant wife was ventilated and their unborn baby died
Sep 21, 2021 :gasp: The Unbelievable Grimness of HermanCainAward, the Subreddit That Catalogs Anti-Vaxxer COVID Deaths}

People are getting strokes from the covid vaccines, they are dying from the covid vaccines.

What do you have to offer to the survivors and their close ones? — baker

What about those killed by the virus ☣ and those saved by the vaccine?
Did you take those into account?
One could argue that withholding an effective vaccine would be a crime.

^{Recommended Vaccinations for birth through 6 years | Recommended Vaccines by Age (US CDC)}

As mentioned (several times in this thread alone), fatalities from the vaccine itself are very rare. Blood clotting and allergies continue to be monitored. Other vaccines (medication at large) aren't magic cures either; we've known this stuff for ages. But, of course, all fatalities are tragic.

If you're to have a get-together with the virus, then (suffering or) dying from the virus is markedly more likely than from the vaccine, ... Then there are the social/communal aspects. We learn from the evidence/science, regardless of how it's put.