Thoughts are information, written down and processed by neurons.
— Olivier5

Interesting. Symbols? Sentences? Images? — bongo fury

Of course! Also humor, dreams, ideas and music. You don't have those? — Olivier5

I was ready to be schooled in information theory, or some such. But you revert to a pre-philosophical declaration of wonder. Which is fine. Don't you want to refine it into theory plausible as literal truth, though?

Thoughts are information, written down and processed by neurons. — Olivier5

Interesting. Symbols? Sentences? Images?

I'm certainly not confusing thoughts with neurological events. — Olivier5

Ok, what are they for you?

And mentalists are people with telepathic capacity, which I don't believe in. — Olivier5

haha, at least that needn't be a substantive issue. I just meant, believing in mental furniture. Whatever you want to call that. Phenomenalism? Psychism?

that we experience qualitative sensations inside our head, such as colours, or the timbre of a musical instrument (the “sound of trumpet”). — Olivier5

That, to me, is mentalism: confusing thoughts (neurological events) with pictures (or other symbols) and with pictured (or otherwise symbolised) objects.

The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it — Russell, 1918

... leading on, we hope, to reconception of and improvement on the received wisdom. (Leading on to another round, etc.)

I always assumed that an "intuition pump" is to be admired as an artificial aid for getting the process going. Perhaps like agreeing of definitions "for the sake of argument", but more, er... erotic?

Seems to apply in the case of the Chinese Room, at least.

Turns out Dennett only really wants to disable all the pumps. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm often surprised at how amenable he (and if he isn't playing around) is to mentalistic talk.

We keep moving the goal posts, aka the Cartesian Theater fallacy. That's a fallacy I think was coined by Dennett, but ironically I think he himself violates. It's neurons encoding for this or that.. but then encoding itself has to be explained as for why it is mental states. The problem lies in positing a hidden dualism. Mental states exist, yes or no? — schopenhauer1

Quite.

I do think that the "neural representations" favoured by the likes of Dennett and Frankish (thanks for the links) are questionable as being probably ghosts of "the idea idea", and other mentalisms. Hence the prevaricating in 3.3 Who is the audience?. And the possible own goal, if

An appearance of something which isn't there.
— Marchesk

gets supposed as a thing located in the head, to the delight and justified exasperation of dualists everywhere. — bongo fury

Can't (yet) find a smoking gun to quote from Quining. But,

Fair enough. Let's talk of colours, smells, feelings, tastes, timbres and tunes then. — Olivier5

Hopefully, @Banno and Dennett mean, merely, external stimulus sets, while you mean, specifically, qualia (or some such) in the head?

for whatever reason. — Srap Tasmaner

E.g., possibly: our thinking in symbols.

That an illusion of consciousness isn't necessarily consciousness.

If it could happen without “magic”, that would mean it was something that could be built up from non-conscious processes, and so would not be whatever the supposed difference is between a philosophical zombie and a real person. — Pfhorrest

Yes, but it doesn't have to be that specious and spurious difference. It only has to be the difference between an ordinary zombie such as a smart phone and a conscious machine such as one of us.

Phenomenal consciousness is defined in opposition to that kind of process. Nothing that the ordinary mechanical properties of matter can build up to, including the full complex and nuanced behavior of a human being, can constitute phenomenal consciousness by itself, as it is defined by the people who came up with the idea. — Pfhorrest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question?wprov=sfla1

No?

Pan-psychists' being wrong about zombies doesn't make them right about pan-psychism.

It happens in any non-religious school as "Religious Studies". Which many such schools (sample of one) now call "Philosophy and Ethics".

Phenomenal consciousness is defined in opposition to that kind of process. Nothing that the ordinary mechanical properties of matter can build up to, including the full complex and nuanced behavior of a human being, can constitute phenomenal consciousness by itself, as it is defined by the people who came up with the idea. — Pfhorrest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question?wprov=sfla1

Obvs.

Not all matter is wet, even in the slightest degree, but liquids usually are.

Not all matter is (phenomenally, of course) conscious, even in the slightest degree, but animals able to play a social game of pointing symbols at things usually are.

some arbitrary line somewhere, the line between things that are held to be entirely without anything at all like phenomenal consciousness and things that suddenly have it in full, — Pfhorrest

No need.

Conclusion: it's not possible for us to gain or obtain knowledge about anything that goes beyond our senses, memory and testimony. — Humelover

Or is it?...

But here it may be proper to remark, that though our conclusions from experience carry us beyond our memory and senses, and assure us of matters of fact which happened in the most distant places and most remote ages, yet [...]

In a word, if we proceed not upon some fact, present to the memory or senses, our reasonings would be merely hypothetical; and however the particular links might be connected with each other, the whole chain of inferences :wink: would have nothing to support it, nor could we ever, by its means, arrive at the knowledge of any real existence. — Hume, Enquiry, section 37

Had not the presence of an object, instantly excited the idea of those objects, commonly conjoined with it, all our knowledge must have been limited to the narrow sphere of our memory and senses; — 44

Hence likewise the benefit of that experience, acquired by long life and a variety of business and company, in order to instruct us in the principles of human nature, and regulate our future conduct, as well as speculation. By means of this guide, we mount up to the knowledge of men’s inclinations and motives, from their actions, expressions, and even gestures; and again descend to the interpretation of their actions from our knowledge of their motives and inclinations. — 65

(My emphasis.)

The bad science part is to assume that it's simple. For instance, there is probably some genetic basis for character traits, but there's no one-to-one relationship between genes and character traits. "The genes of love" or "the genes of selfishness" are gross simplifications of far more complex realities. — Olivier5

To be fair:

The bogey of genetic determinism needs to be laid to rest. The discovery of a so-called ‘gay gene’ is as good an opportunity as we'll get to lay it.

[...]

Genes, in different aspects of their behaviour, are sometimes like blueprints and sometimes like recipes. It is important to keep the two aspects separate. Genes are digital, textual information, and they retain their hard, textual integrity as they change partners down the generations. Chromosomes — long strings of genes — are formally just like long computer tapes. When a portion of genetic tape is read in a cell, the first thing that happens to the information is that it is translated from one code to another: from the DNA code to a related code that dictates the exact shape of a protein molecule. So far, the gene behaves like a blueprint. There really is a one-to-one mapping between bits of gene and bits of protein, and it really is deterministic.

It is in the next step of the process — the development of a whole body and its psychological predispositions — that things start to get more complicated and recipe-like. There is seldom a simple one-to-one mapping between particular genes and ‘bits’ of body. Rather, there is a mapping between genes and rates at which processes happen during embryonic development. The eventual effects on bodies and their behaviour are often multifarious and hard to unravel.

The recipe is a good metaphor but, as an even better one, think of the body as a blanket, suspended from the ceiling by 100,000 rubber bands, all tangled and twisted around one another. The shape of the blanket — the body — is determined by the tensions of all these rubber bands taken together. Some of the rubber bands represent genes, others {105} environmental factors. A change in a particular gene corresponds to a lengthening or shortening of one particular rubber band. But any one rubber band is linked to the blanket only indirectly via countless connections amid the welter of other rubber bands. If you cut one rubber band, or tighten it, there will be a distributed shift in tensions, and the effect on the shape of the blanket will be complex and hard to predict.

[...]

So, if you hate homosexuals or love them, if you want to lock them up or ‘cure’ them, your reasons had better have nothing to do with genes.
— Dawkins: Genes Aren't Us - A Devil's Chaplain, chapter 2.4

or take this to PMs — fdrake

Please not!

Why are you pestering this thread — Srap Tasmaner

Pardon me? You engaged me, not me you?

You called reference a fantasy; — Srap Tasmaner

You seem to have assumed this was an insult? I'm insulted. :wink:

but of course it turns out this is a picturesque way of describing anything abstract — Srap Tasmaner

What is? Clarification, please.

What's the intended force of this though? — Srap Tasmaner

Do you mean, what do I mean? Or some more technical question?

Are you distinguishing reference from something we do with language that is not a fantasy? — Srap Tasmaner

No.

If you aren't, why should we care? — Srap Tasmaner

Why should we care about

language, art, and money — bongo fury

?

A declarative sentence is the standard linguistic device for pointing a word at one or more objects.

An assertion is the device in operation.

Why is it hard to tell the difference? Because the operation is a fantasy.

https://youtu.be/Tud43e2dT30?t=303

I don't see what you are asking. — Banno

Only for clarification. Which is probably too much. :wink:

I can't make a passing theory of what you meant, here.

If it were mandatory that the statement were an assertion, then the turnstile would add something (viz, what was already mandated)?

Nvm. Found the passage (though not the paper).

It's not a convention that what one says by way of a statement is an assertion; if it were, the turnstile would add something to the utterance. — Banno

Clarification, please? If it were... mandatory that the statement was an assertion? ...or, mandatory that it needed or allowed specifying as such? ...or...?

The creatures dominant on this planet hold a great many beliefs, beyond the findings of their excellent sciences. Perhaps most fundamental, deeper even than religion, is their belief in the reality of their symbol systems, such as language, art, and money. Prowess in such make-believe probably accounts for their dominance. Many other creatures attain sophistication in the conduct of some fairly fixed and innate system of communication, able to convey the location of food sources for example. But they are like Searle's Chinese room: automata. Humans alone seem equipped to entertain what we might call "passing theories" of reference, guessing and second-guessing possible novel (and completely pretended) correlations of symbols with objects: cave floor with tundra, rock with mammoth, pebble with bait, etc.

In principle, we can imagine creatures able to maintain such theories in an entirely hypothetical mode: second, third and nth degree-guessing. (Lewis.) However, the utility of and need for belief (or suspension of disbelief) in this respect, is easy enough to credit. Shared enough, passing theories thus solidify into "conventions" or "prior theories". Solid enough, they obscure or trivialise the level of semantic skill attained, so that even philosophers are able to catch each other out taking them (and it) too literally or inflexibly.

my soccer story — Srap Tasmaner

I keep being reminded of Elgin's Monday morning quarterback story. (Is it a good case of a passing theory?)

A visual map can be encoded in binary on a computer, and a human could read off those ones and zeros, even if they didn’t understand what they were reading. All the information in the picture would be retained in the sound of the human voice.
— Pfhorrest

So this seems to me an excellent example of the obvious differences to be found between an object (whatever it was, a still life?) and its representation or description (the vocalised bit map). The map is certainly not the territory.

If that picture were to be perfectly detailed down to the subatomic level, it would have to be animated
— Pfhorrest

If you mean represent temporally successive states, gradients etc. then, sure. If you mean represent them by a temporal succession of symbols, then surely not? Why? (I know the bit map is vocalised as a succession, but thus far that aspect was irrelevant to what it described, and could continue to be so, I would have assumed.)

or at least include temporal information in it like momentum, and all of the structural details that give a complete picture of its function,
— Pfhorrest

Sure, why not. We're on a flight of fancy as regards the level of precision achieved by the description, but that's ok. Bolt on another hard drive (or immortal chanter) to store the whole bit-map.

and contain within it all the exact information that the physical thing the “picture” it is of does.
— Pfhorrest

(Interesting syntax... reminds me of "no head injury is too trivial to be ignored" ;) )

Do you mean, "the physical thing that the picture is (a picture) of: the thing it depicts; the bowl of fruit?

Ok, the picture/bit-map/description must be as complex as the physics of a bowl of fruit; but was this paragraph meant to show how the bit-map must become a replica of the bowl of fruit? That's what I'm not getting. — bongo fury

Talking about a literal map of a city is probably a clearer illustration. — Pfhorrest

Evidently not. How or why must the ever more elaborate vocal performance which is the bit-map become more and more like the bowl of fruit?

Yes? When was the last time you saw a yurg? — tim wood

You wrote the puzzle :wink:

No yurgs are green, or, all yurgs are blue, on the other hand, cannot be presumed to imply there are any yurgs. — tim wood

:up: Cool, e.g.,

For all choices of x, not yurg without blue. (Could be zero yurgs.)

you would have them as proof of the existence of yurgs. — tim wood

No, but their negations, yes. E.g.,

For fewer than all choices of x, not yurg without blue... hence, for some one or more remaining choices of x, yurg without blue.

~∀x~(Yx & ~Bx) => ∃x(Yx & ~Bx)

By the way, though, also the green:

~∀x~(Yx & Gx) => ∃x(Yx & Gx)

Or even just non-yurg:

~∀x~(Yx) => ∃x(Yx)

and

~∀x(Yx) => ∃x(~Yx)

Also of course

∀x(Yx) => ∃x(Yx)

I.e. a universally quantified conditional (just like a universal categorical) needn't imply existence ('import') of the type of object named in the antecedent; but the quantifier itself always refers to the whole universe of assumed entities, and hence always facilitates implication of some existential statement or other.

if the false proposition were that no yurgs were not dinosaurs, then you're in the position of affirming the existence of yurgs. — tim wood

Yes, being asked to deny the non-existence of yurgs of a certain type is being asked to affirm their existence, surely?

If you are disconcerted by that step, maybe you (like me, often) slipped into thinking the invitation was to deny, instead, some spurious inference to the existence of yurgs of the opposite type?

I was reminded of this (for me) very embarrassing thread when quoting Quine here:

But the configuration of prefixes '~∀x~' figures so prominently in subsequent developments that it is convenient to adopt a condensed notation for it; the customary one is '∃x', which we may read 'there is something that'.
— Quine, Mathematical Logic — bongo fury

the argument itself does not grant people. — tim wood

Doesn't it at least deny:

1) ∀x~(Px & ~Dx)

I.e. for all choices of x, no personhood without dinosaurhood?

And wouldn't that denial:

2) ~∀x~(Px & ~Dx)

i.e. for fewer than all choices of x, no personhood without dinosaurhood

... seem to suggest that for some one or more remaining choices of x, personhood without dinosaurhood? ... i.e.,

∃x(Px & ~Dx)

as per Quine's definition?

There is only the public red. — Banno

... or...

Sure there are beetles. — Banno

?

It's intended to reinforce the argument that the question drops out of any relevance. — Banno

I doubt it has the intended effect. It implies that you are only concerned about what is relevant to the linguistic aspects, and are perfectly prepared to admit the possibility of a beetle beetling away.

And are they differently set for thinking than for saying?

Ok, but your interlocutor could reasonably complain of having been misled by your blarney here:

Or, to switch examples, even if you and I don't mean the very same colour when we say "red" - if your red is my blue - — Banno

Fair enough.

So this is the question:

If Alice is thinking something, must we conclude there is something that Alice is thinking? — Srap Tasmaner

Vote no.

And, if Alice is saying something, must we (can we) conclude there is some sort of a thing entering into a binary "is saying" relation with Alice?

It would be unresponsive to what I said. — Dfpolis

... about correspondence, or abstraction?

I've fixed the quote link, but apologies for the tangle. My bad.

hmm...

My bad for quoting you in this other thread. I think @Srap Tasmaner already questioned your usage of "abstraction". How about:

But true sentences can correspond only to made-up abstractions chimaeras. — bongo fury

Truth is not correspondence to reality. Why? — Dfpolis

Because only whole sentences can be true, whereas only parts of sentences can correspond to reality.

The correspondence relation is sometimes called "is true of", but that doesn't help, although it perhaps fuels the expectation.

But true sentences can correspond only to made-up abstractions.