• What is a Fact?
    The door is shut.Banno

    How is that an answer to my question?

    It can be used as a statement and as a fact.
    — Banno

    What can?
    bongo fury

    This is a request for quite ordinary clarification, of which you showed yourself capable for the remainder of that post after "duckrabbits". You know - which words are referring to which things.

    Please clarify the reference of "it" in the sentence above, that I'm questioning.
  • What is a Fact?
    I don't understand what you are asking.Banno

    It can be used as a statement and as a fact.
    — Banno

    What can?
    bongo fury
  • What is a Fact?
    That is a statement.Banno

    What is? The string of four words opening your post? Sure.

    It is also a fact, because the door is indeed shut.Banno

    It's also a fact, then, because it's not only a sentence but true. Fine.

    It can be used as a statement and as a fact.Banno

    What can? The string of four words which is indeed a statement and a fact, in the sense of true statement? Are you saying it can sometimes be used as a sentence whose truth is irrelevant?
  • What is a Fact?
    Where did I go wrong?Banno

    Everywhere before "duckrabbits". After that, much improved.
  • What is a Fact?
    The T-sentence. Statement mentioned on the left,Banno

    Agreed.

    state of affairs, fact, statement used, on the right.Banno

    This is where you (always) confuse use and mention yourself. Or are out to subvert the distinction as it is commonly supposed. According to which, mention means refer to. I suspect that someone so opposed to the study of reference could actually be confused, though.

    state of affairs, factBanno

    Right, fact in the sense of state of affairs, an alleged entity or event ("truthmaker") perhaps (though it's problematical, and reference is better restricted to smaller phrases) referred to by or mentioned by or otherwise corresponding with the statement used (for the purpose of that reference) on the right. But not to be confused with that statement. If you claim to be recognising the distinction. So, not to be run together with that statement:

    state of affairs, fact, statement used, on the right.Banno

    Or would you take this correction?

    state of affairs, fact... statement used to mention which, on the right.Banno

    Come to think of it,

    Statement mentioned on the left,Banno

    is confused if you mean the statement mentioned is on the left. It's on the right. (And elsewhere.)

    Mention of the sentence (through use of its quotation) is on the left.

    I'm being pedantic, but you're being mystical.
  • What is a Fact?
    The world is the totality of things, not of facts.

    Not of true sentences: it doesn't need those.

    Nor of obtaining states: those are linguistic too.
  • Why did logical positivism fade away?
    Aristotle never used the term metaphysics.Joshs

    Exactly. It was only a cataloguing thing. And our different preferred readings,

    I'd have thought that metaphysics starts from the assumption that all the physics is settled,bongo fury

    and

    The ‘meta’ is the formal synthetic framework which organizes the understanding of ‘physis’ (nature).Joshs

    must, both, depend on more recent precedent, if any.

    As to my main question re 'speculative' we continue to make progress, and thanks again.

    Hegel regarded his dialectical method or “speculative mode of cognition” (PR §10) as the hallmark of his philosophy.Joshs

    So to this,

    When it wasn't part of an insult? Who coined it?bongo fury

    ... the answer is Hegel (himself, not his detractors) and it seems he used 'speculative' (or a German word) in the sense of 'theoretical' that predated its (either word's) association with 'testing'. Leaving it prone to later criticism, which you alluded to.

    The next question might be, who joined it explicitly to 'metaphysics' and did they mean to contrast it with 'practical metaphysics', with or without implying an insult?

    Sticking with Hegel's "speculative mode of cognition", though, and wondering about the context, in English and possibly German (I'd need help again), I couldn't locate it here:

    https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/pr/printrod.htm#PR10

    Was that the place?
  • Why did logical positivism fade away?
    Since the Greeks?Joshs

    I doubt it. Any examples of Greeks using 'meta' that way? I keep hearing that for a long time it only connected to 'physical' with reference to cataloguing of Aristotle's books?

    Speculative dialectics deservedly got a bad rep when...Joshs

    That wasn't the question. The question was how, why or when did 'speculative' enter the lexicon. Interesting though to see it joined to 'dialectics'. Is/was that common? Examples please. If so then perhaps your theory, that 'speculative' meant 'fanciful' in relation to Hegel's historicising, gets some traction. In that case it never

    wasn't part of an insult?bongo fury



    As far as its speculative role, this term became fashionable after Hegel.
    — Joshs

    Ah! Interesting, :party: thanks. Any examples?
    bongo fury
  • Why did logical positivism fade away?
    Thanks Josh.

    The ‘meta’ is the formal synthetic framework which organizes the understanding of ‘physis’ (nature).Joshs

    If that's an is, and not an ought to be, then... is, since when?

    It need make no claims for a particular content of science being settled or unsettled.Joshs

    True, I was ruminating on an arguable ought. A normative gloss. To maximise charity to the most uses.

    As far as its speculative role, this term became fashionable after Hegel.Joshs

    Ah! Interesting, thanks. Any examples?

    His dialectic was interpreted as explaining the movement of natural and cultural history without recourse to empirical evidence.Joshs

    Don't understand.
  • Why did logical positivism fade away?
    What did 'speculative' add to 'metaphysics' before it was like adding 'infectious' to 'disease'? When it wasn't part of an insult? Who coined it? Kant?

    I don't get it, because I'd have thought that metaphysics starts from the assumption that all the physics is settled, so there are no speculations to deal with.

    Perhaps I'm confusing 'speculation' with 'empirical conjecture'? How should I not?
  • Pattern Recognition as the Essence of Philosophy
    If I sort some pebbles by size, and put big ones here and little ones there I am imposing a pattern.unenlightened

    That's one way of imposing a pattern, yes. But the imposition I'm talking about isn't the physical intervention. It's what you thereby facilitate, which is reference, albeit silent. By the intervention you help the pebbles to refer, in a pair-wise manner, to certain appropriate relation words like 'larger-than'.

    I admit that 'appropriate' gives pause to the nominalist who calls reference an imposition, rather than a fit. But it can be a fit to previous reference (and hence more or less appropriate), rather than to natural joints. I think someone made a similar point (about it never being from natural scratch), above, while fulminating against the very idea of an imposition.

    I've now also admitted that I equate 'pattern', as a count noun, to predicate or sort or kind, which may be anathema.

    You say you equate it, as an abstract mass noun, to compressibility, or simplicity.

    Like 'information', perhaps it can be both, at least.
  • Pattern Recognition as the Essence of Philosophy
    That reminds me, where's bartricks?
  • Why did logical positivism fade away?


    Brilliant corrective, thank you. Still... if,

    the idea that the whole movement foundered because of an obvious logical inconsistency is just bizarreNagase

    ... then how did the label become such a popular insult?

    Largely, one suspects the (indirect) influence of Wittgenstein, through the crude narrative of his later abandoning an earlier crude theory of the relation of language to the world, in which the mistake had been (allegedly) to model language as logic.

    You often hear it pointed out that the Tractatus wasn't positivism, but usually that's in order to defend the first at the expense of the second.
  • What's the function of tears, even the crocodile ones?
    haha, the theory might have been short-lived on wiki because it was that daft :rofl: I dunno.

    Btw, if it didn't go without saying, and I suppose it didn't,

    Now, laughing friends deride
    Tears, I cannot hide
    Oh-oh-oh-oh
    So, I smile and say
    "When a lovely flame dies
    Smoke gets in your eyes"

    I.e. "smoke getting in your eyes" used to be a euphemism.
  • What's the function of tears, even the crocodile ones?
    It's googleable, and I don't see why it would deserve a different thread.
  • What's the function of tears, even the crocodile ones?
    I was intrigued but I can't see it now on wiki.
  • What's the function of tears, even the crocodile ones?
    Last time I looked at the wiki page I could have sworn there was a theory about smoke getting in the eyes of early hom sap at its funeral pyres. :roll:
  • Pattern Recognition as the Essence of Philosophy
    Because to recognise a pattern is to simplify,unenlightened

    If recognise means impose, then yes, preferably.

    Does it? ...Which is to ask: nominalist or platonist?

    Forgive me if I impose, haha.
  • What is Information?
    This short 10min video is a great primer in systems thinking,Pop

    No doubt :up:

    and it answers why entropy is not enough.Pop

    Not at all. Possibly it argues why physics is not enough, and we need a science of complex systems. Fine.

    But that science won't thank you for spreading information woo, based on confusions about physics.

    If I was too succinct:

    As well as being a term that strictly speaking says all sorts of interesting things that - in the present context which is physics - can and should be stated perfectly well in terms of entropy.bongo fury
  • What is Information?
    The black hole information paradox is where my interest in it started.frank

    Via footnote 4:

    As you have probably noticed, I didn’t say anything about information. That’s because really the reference to information in “black hole information loss” is entirely unnecessary and just causes confusion. The problem of black hole “information loss” really has nothing to do with just exactly what you mean by information. It’s just a term that loosely speaking says you can’t tell from the final state what was the exact initial state.Sabine Hossenfelder

    As well as being a term that strictly speaking says all sorts of interesting things that can and should be stated perfectly well in terms of entropy. Whether or not the equivocation between loose and strict has been helpful to physicists, it seems to have been disastrous for philosophical discussion of 'information'.
  • What is Information?
    I didn't need politeness, only careful engagement with the linked wiki page, and the definitions used there.
  • What is Information?
    I must have failed to make clear that I wanted to interrogate the alleged connection as laid out on the linked wiki page, and follow the definitions used there.

    That's probably a bigger ask than I assumed, and less to be expected of physicists than I assumed.

    Thanks anyway.
  • What is Information?
    entropy is the _number_ of microstates available to explore.Kenosha Kid

    Cool, where those states are assumed equiprobable, and in which case the analogy according to the linked Wikipedia page is that information is the _number_of messages available to... send? ... store? ... explore? ... whatever, but the cardinality of the message space. The number of alternatives.

    So, is we is or is we ain't... compelled to interpret the one as the other? The maths of alternative states/events/outcomes/anythings as the maths of alternative messages more specifically? If so, where, exactly?

    I thought this would be a physics question, and I should be prepared to accept an interesting justification for the specific interpretation, even while not fully understanding it. But I have to admit,

    The actual microstate occupied by a system would be the totality of its information,Kenosha Kid

    sounds like any old woo. Please explain.

    and is not specified by the system's entropy.Kenosha Kid

    Is it like, the actual message sent along a channel would have its own surprise value, its Shannon 'self-information', analogously not specified by the source's entropy, i.e. the Shannon information of the whole message space? That would make 'totality of its information' the (log of the) probability of that particular state? That doesn't seem to be what you mean.

    Or are you appealing to some non-technical (at least non-Shannon) intuition of information as stream-of-fact?

    'the totality of its information'... how physics, please? Else, what, exactly?
  • What is Information?
    Not something I've heard said,Kenosha Kid

    Yippee, a physicist is going to help me dispell the woo...

    but I guess any microstate is a unique collection of information.Kenosha Kid

    Oh jeez.

    Put it this way, is there any information-talk in physics that can't be (shouldn't be) replaced perfectly well with entropy-talk?
  • What is Information?
    What is information?Pop

    I'd be hugely grateful to learn from @Kenosha Kid or other physicists precisely if and where it is, within modern science, that one is compelled to interpret the probability of a thermal microstate as the probability of a message?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_in_thermodynamics_and_information_theory?wprov=sfla1
  • What is Information?
    A common failing in scientific philosophical writing is to blur the line between nouns and verbs. Through a process called nominalization, we morph verbs (and sometimes adjectives) into abstract nouns. This process robs our writing of energy and clarity.Crystal Herron, blog

    Except that, done with flair, it can apparently add tons of energy, and the illusion of clarity.



    Do you never look at a sentence you've written and think, what on earth (rather than heaven) am I "quantifying over"? What are the odds my reader will correctly infer what things I'm referring to, and at which I'm pointing some of these other words? Wouldn't those odds improve if those things were relatively concrete, and graspable?
  • Logical Nihilism
    horses for coursesbongo fury

    What is a good horse for a course (logic for a discourse)? Not, one might naively assume, one whose principles allow inference to exactly all the sentences that are said in the discourse? Or which agree with all the inferential steps or patterns that are claimed in the discourse? Although that does rather sound like G Russell's view.

    I'm not clear whether the view tends to arise from the narrower example of proving a logic sound or complete for a perfectly determined 'discourse', as here:

    r0wklys54aivefii.png

    ... where the 'discourse' on the left contains no controversies. Everyone is agreed (no diagrams are denying), in this example, that if everyone loves themselves then everyone loves someone. That would be a principle that needs including in a suitable logic for the discourse. The maths, complicated enough even for such an ideal discourse, is about determining which other principles (LEM, LNC etc) are also required: either for their own sake, or in order to save others from apparent threats like 'explosion' etc.

    In informal discourse, by contrast, we are generally faced with controversies, and the usual, classical logic is clearly valued for its ability to help us take sides. Which side to take, which sentences to save, it never tells. But it shows up some combinations as being either mutually compatible or not so. The compatibility is of course relative to the chosen logic, the chosen set of laws. We choose a logic which we hope will, by showing up compatibilities and incompatibilities (relative to it), have a positive influence on our choices to save and reject.

    Thus Popper and Lakatos are rightly fixated on counter-examples, which are signs of incompatibility. At least one of these three will have to be rejected or revised:

    • All polyhedra are Eulerian
    • x is a polyhedron
    • x isn't Eulerian

    Lakatos investigates all the choices, to see better what's at stake. But he is completely satisfied with ordinary logic as a test of compatibility. Nowhere does a paradox, superficial or deep, tempt him to bring a more exotic (stronger or weaker) logic on board. Paradoxes are to be resolved by better understanding the vagaries and ambiguities of, and subsequent clarifications and alterations to the reference of, (specific occurrences of) terms such as x, polyhedron and Eulerian.

    I suggest it's worth noticing how people so often feel the opposite duty: e.g.
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/550407
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/566367

    Which (hey, we must need a more fancy logic) is an attitude that maybe G Russell would identify as pluralist (and my protesting in those places "please not" as correspondingly monist), I'm not sure. I think I protest only because people are seeing logic as a means of revelation, instead of a (standard of) discipline. Reforming premises to meet present standards of compatibility should be tried before reforming the standards to allow all the premises.

    To be a law of logic, a principle must hold in complete generalityG Russell

    I would rather say that it (the principle, the discipline) must be feasible and/or appropriate for imposing in complete generality. Which of course it can't be. Witness art and poetry. Horses for courses.

    Still, going with G Russell's flow, what's the analogy with ordinary counterexamples? Is it, e.g.,

    • All natural discourse makes conjunction introduction intuitive
    • SOLO is convincing as natural discourse
    • SOLO makes conjunction introduction unintuitive

    ?

    80
  • Correspondence theory of truth and mathematics.
    If you think that properties are collections then reality consists only of collections, which are concrete things, because properties as abstract things that have instances don't exist.litewave

    https://youtu.be/RUzbmIKVAHo?t=47 :wink:

    The nominalist cancels out the property and treats the predicate as bearing a one-many relation directly to the several things it applies to or denotes.Goodman, p49
  • Correspondence theory of truth and mathematics.
    The maths of the correspondence theory of truth is called model theory.

    Commitment to the correspondence theory means commitment to a model's actual existence: properties, relations and all. (Platonism.)

    The same commitment isn't required in order to do model theory, because models, like all mathematical entities, might be fictions, like Santa Claus.

    Neither is it required in order to do nominalism (reference theory), and examine the correspondences (albeit conventional or pretended) between words and things, or other words. In order to take, that is to say, a mathematical or literary or pictorial story and examine its pretended connections to existing things or events (e.g. world war II) or, that perhaps not being an option, to other words and pictures (numerals, number lines, Santa pics, real old man pics, etc).

    If what matters most according to the correspondence theory of truth, is the accurate portrayal of a particular or general 'state of affairs' - through language - of reality,Shawn

    Yes, I think so...

    and therefore what can be platonically described as the mind's eyeShawn

    No idea what you mean, although actual existence of properties etc is what an anti-platonist can't handle. Is my understanding of 'platonic'. So if 'minds eye' means imaginary... No I can't parse it.

    From a retired mathematician who still dabbles with it,jgill

    Hi there from an ignoramus.

    That sequence of electronic dots has a kind of "physical" existence but is still in a way non-physical. How does this fit into the current discussion?jgill

    I would offer: the non-physical aspect is the pretended or conventional reference (by the dots, in sequence). That leaves it open to analyse the reference as fictive, like a Santa story, or factual, like a history. Either way, there is no need to infer reference to non-physical entities. If you don't want to... Do you?

    PS why the scare quotes?
  • Semantics, "internalism" and visual thinking questions


    Still intrigued. All I get from Google is a jewellers in Tunbridge Wells.
  • Logical Nihilism
    But what all those people (Quine, Williamson, Preist, Kleene...) have in common is they think there's one logic, and, the one they like, that's the one.2:10

    Really? We can assume they are all monist, which I'm hoping will gloss as absolutist? I.e. not tolerant, or relativist, inasmuch as (not) regarding logics as horses for courses? [Thought I could safely use this figure without implying anything was a race, nvm.]

    I can see how someone of that persuasion (far more prevalent than I knew) might survey the totality of courses and decide that the only horse suitable is Humpty Dumpty, or worse. But a pluralist (relativist? or am I unaware of a recognised distinction?) already allows such a choice for a slowest [having fewest laws] variety of horse:

      [1] Tell me, do you think that a language game that assumes no logical law whatsoever deserves to be called a logic?

      [2] Perhaps not, but it's moot, because either it or a game with precisely one such law will definitely be a very weakest logic. Granted, 'weak logic' has the flavour of an oxymoron, but its instances clearly have at least mathematical interest, and might include also certain poetry, music, mime etc. What's the big deal?

      [1] Ah, but the trouble is, I'm assuming that: to be a law of logic, a principle must hold in complete generality. You say 'horses for courses' so you probably don't agree?

      [2] Relative to the totality of courses, guilty as charged. Only an absolutist, who didn't appreciate that truth is relative to a discourse, would agree. But on a course, in a discourse, which is good enough, a principle will indeed hold in complete generality if I call it logical. That's what I mean by logical: completely general (within the discourse) in governing inference from one statement to another.


    70
  • Semantics, "internalism" and visual thinking questions


    What are you calling "internalist"? Just curious.

    2
  • Five different calculuses


    3. Were you aware that in the 18thC your incredulity was famously supported by Bishop Berkeley in The Analyst? And that despite his religious motivation for doubting science, he seems to have been exonerated by...

    4. reforms of the calculus in the 19th C? In terms of limits, as explained copiously hereabouts by @fishfry, e.g. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/184240 . That's probably what 20thC textbooks are trying to explain, although many people find that no less challenging, and accept the older and apparently questionable notational shortcuts.

    5. The twist in the tale, 20thC, is that maybe Newton and Leibniz were (entirely) right all along: Berkeley's dreaded infinitesimals were rehabilitated. There is a thread about that somewhere. Whereas I would expect that recent material 'reverting to the ancient approximation goal' is more likely in the spirit of 4. Which is still the consensus.

    reminiscences,Fine Doubter

    Yes, # me too!


    25
  • Direct Color Realism via Productance Physicalism
    Meaning the experience is an event taking place in the perceiver, while the tomato is an object with potentially some property related to the perceiver seeing red.Marchesk

    I don't yet get how all the positions are meant to depend on each other. Mine is that colours are out there, but as classes of visual stimuli, which are best construed as illumination events, like (it seems to me) musical stimuli are sound events.

    Only derivatively would you want to be trying to correlate colours with material surfaces or other objects removed from the events. Like only derivatively would you associate sound qualities with instruments. (I can see how that might seem the wrong way round.)

    Or with physical properties, of the surfaces or resonating bodies respectively. Why the hurry, and not seeing it as derivative? "Events, dear boy, events."

    From my position, everything is out there already, just ordered and classified through aesthetic practice.

    the red we see,Marchesk

    You're interested in the nature of some kind of correlation, I think, between inner and outer? I need to have another go at understanding whether that's an assumption shared by the authors.

    35
  • Direct Color Realism via Productance Physicalism
    Hard to square the confidence about the mission

    to introduce an interdisciplinary audience to some distinctively philosophical tools that are useful in tackling the problem of color realism and, second, to clarify the various positions and central arguments in the debate.

    with

    When someone looks at a tomato in good light, she undergoes a visual experience. This experience is an event, like an explosion or a thunderstorm: it begins at one time and ends at a later time. The object of the experience is the tomato, which is not an event (tomatoes don't occur).

    Like, er??

    3
  • Why doesn't hard content externalism lead to behaviorism?
    I think Chomsky avers (somewhere on youtube) that Hume and Heraclitus were privy to the same insight [the inscrutability of reference]. Of course he draws a different lesson from it than Quine. But he doesn't say the doctrine itself is mistaken, or even that it is behaviouristic. And it isn't. It points out that you can't objectively ground reference in behaviour.bongo fury

    I was about ready to back-peddle on that, reminded of this,

    In psychology one may or may not be a behaviourist, but in linguistics one has no choice … There is nothing in linguistic meaning beyond what is to be gleaned from overt behaviour in observable circumstances.Quine, Pursuit of Truth

    So it's gratifying to find Kripke agreeing that,

    Given Quine's own formulation of his theses, it appears open to a non-behaviorist to regard his arguments, if he accepts them, as demonstrations that any behavioristic account of meaning must be inadequate - it cannot even distinguish between a word meaning rabbit and one meaning rabbit-stage.Kripke p57

    I'm not sure whether Kripke thinks that Quine would be happy with that way of regarding. I do. I think.

    Quine shows that the human (or linguistic animal) condition is to have to hypothesise about a reference relation that is inherently indeterminate when conceived externally (cutting out the middle man).

    Kripkenstein shows that the same indeterminacy arises for the relation conceived internally (per the diagram):

    But if Wittgenstein is right, and no amount of access to my mind can reveal whether I mean plus or quus, may the same not hold for rabbit and rabbit-stage? So perhaps Quine's problem arises for non-behaviorists. This is not the place to explore the matter.Kripke p57

    42
  • Feature requests
    I request, not likes, or dislikes, but durations:

    • of composition,

    and if software allowed it,

    • of views.

    The first is easy enough. It might start and end in the following solitary gesture, wherein I record at the end of each post, as I shall for a while at least, the number of minutes spent (however wastefully) composing it.

    Just possibly, though, it might catch on and create an etiquette. I will be precious enough to suggest one: don't spend less than a third fifth quarter of that time on your reply, if you make one?

    Not asking for an essay, of course. To get the virtue, divide the minute count by the word count.

    20