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A question for panpsychists (and others too)
"Mind" is not a thing; it's merely what some very rare, complex material systems do.Mind coming from matter ... — RogueAI
Stuff is just stuff and very rare bits of stuff happen to be aware that they are just stuff like all the other unaware stuff.There is no matter. It's all mental stuff. -
Is atheism illogical?
Based on Abrahamic, Hindi, pantheonic Greco-Roman-Egyptian-Babylonian-Persian-Mesoamerican-Aboriginal traditions, I understand theism as consisting of the following claims:As far as I know, there is no universal consensus that could legitimately be called the "sine qua non" of theism. i.e. you are making it up in order to then argue against it (as I have repeatedly pointed out). — Pantagruel
(1) at least one ultimate mystery
(2) created existence,
(3) intervenes in – causes changes (which cannot be accounted for otherwise) to – the universe
(4) and is morally worthy of worship.
Cite any deity-tradition, sir, that you consider 'theistic' and that does not conceptualize its (highest) deity with these attributes, or claims. :chin:
Sounds to me like made up woo-stuff :sparkle: just like e.g. "Flying Spaghetti Monsters" ... "The Great Old Ones" ... "The Force" ... nothing to do with any religious expression of theism as such.Mysine qua non theisticclaims are that there are greater-than-human conscious entities. -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)My guess is that, barring a debilitating health event or worse, if Biden doesn't step aside this week (or next at the latest), then he will be on the ballot again. I believe various state deadlines are coming up later this month for printing ballots, etc so the Democratic Party's "final" decision whether to unite behind Biden is imminent. That's critical – not whether or Biden steps aside – the degree to which the coalitions which make up the Dems coalesce again like they did in 2020 to make the election about opposition to The Neofascist Criminal Clown in Roevember.
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US Election 2024 (All general discussion)DNC party rules and, because he is the incumbent president, Biden (team) controls the Dems convention nominating process. Besides, even if the Dems could "force him out" (they cannot), by law the money the Biden-Harris campaign has raised would still belong to his campaign and he could run for reelection as an independent guaranteeing that The Clown wins the election. So as a practical electoral matter it's a disaster if Biden doesn't voluntarily step aside and endorse his replacement.
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To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?
If I may – go to the source and read Ethics (Edwin Curley's translation); however, if you must read secondary literature, I recommend Spinoza by Stuart Hampshire. Careful reading of either book should clear up (most of) this "ambiguity" you're finding.I have been reading about Spinoza's philosophy and as far as I can see there is a lot of ambiguity over how his ideas are interpreted. — Jack Cummins
Spinoza does not argue this. Regardless of the laziness of centuries of academic fashion, Spinoza is an acosmist¹, not a "pantheist" or "atheist".God was 'nothing other than the whole universe'.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/528116 [1]
I don't think so. "The playwrite" would have to transform himself into "the play itself" – (analogously) that's pandeism².[ ... ] This is the God of pandeism.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/718054 [2]
A modern expression of this process ...In ancient philosophy, the term "anagoge" (from the Greek "ἀναγωγή") refers to a process of spiritual or intellectual ascent. — Wayfarer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittgenstein%27s_ladder
Akin to atoms swirling swerving & recombing (in) void ...Being is the world of the 10,000 things. Non-being is the Tao. — T Clark
Yes, ³it's the least rational and pragmatic "way of seeing things" except for all the others tried so far.[³M]aterialism's objective reality is not the only way of seeing things.
[naturalism [physicalism [ materialism ]]] [3] -
Is atheism illogical?
Well, this "atheist" certainly is "qualified to speak about what" theism "is not" – the sine qua non claims of theism¹ are demonstrably not true.Atheists, bytheir[your] own declaration, are really only qualified to speak about what god is not. — Pantagruel
from 2019 ...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/350947 [1] -
Is the real world fair and just?
A post-scarcity, demarchic social system is as "fair and just" as I can imagine.... a social system that is on average fair and just? — apokrisis -
A question for panpsychists (and others too)
I agree. :up:Consciousness is not in need of explanation ... — bert1
For instance, Spinoza's double-aspect parallelism dissolves Descartes' "MBP – substance duality": mind describes (degrees of) voluntarily behaving and body describes involuntarily behaving. "Consciousness" (i.e. mind) is not an entity, but how we predicate a class of actions that we cannot account for mechanistically. Besides not explaining, or making sense of, anything, this is why I find "panpsychism" conceptually incoherent as psyche-of-the-gaps appeal to ignorance woo-woo. :sparkle:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-aspect_theory
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychophysical_parallelism
'How X becomes Y?' is a request for cause/s that can be answered by the inquirer herself by '(under specified conditions, we can observe that) Z causes X to become Y'. However, to ask 'why X becomes Y?' is a request by the inquirer of the motives of another who is the only one who can answer 'Z was the motive (for me) to cause X to become Y'. In clear, ordinary usage, how pertains to causes or correlations (re: bodies) and why pertains to motives, or justifications (re: minds). -
The Philosophy of Mysticism
And, imo, this "object" conceals (its) absence. In broad strokes, I think religion (to worship) idolatrizes-fetishizes-mystifies '(the) absence' and mysticism (to meditate) denies – negates – 'whatever conceals absence' in order to "experience" absence as such whereas philosophy (to inferentially contemplate) describes – makes explicit – 'presence concealing absence' and science (to testably map-model) observes 'only fact-patterns (i.e. states-of-affairs concealing absence) in order to explain dynamics.There is ... One object of experience. — Fire Ologist -
Is atheism illogical?
AFAIK, "logic" doesn't "explain" anything; its "applicability" consists in providing formal consistency to arguments (re: valid inferences, sound conclusions).the applicability of logic to explain — Fire Ologist -
Is the real world fair and just?
It seems to me that every (human) "individual" is a (eu/anti)social being first and foremost.But does every individual have to be fair and just or should we build a social system that is on average fair and just? — apokrisis -
Is the real world fair and just?
Yes; however, we h. sapiens have not been "fair and just" enough – too often not at all – to one another for the last several (recorded) millennia at least.Is the real world fair and just? — Gnomon -
A Reversion to AristotleYour mentions of him in the OP are simply contrary to Nietzche's moral philosophy.
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Evidence of Consciousness Surviving the Body
:sparkle: :lol:The experiences of NDErs... — Sam26
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/912509
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To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?
In light of Spinoza's dissolution of the "MBP" derived from the illusion – conceptual incoherence – of Descartes' substance duality (or Aristotle's substance plurality) which I've previously alluded to here , what actual "problem" remains to be discussed?The mind-body problem is made so complicated by an apparent duality of mind and body, but a clearconnection between[complementarity of] the two. — Jack Cummins -
A Reversion to AristotleMaybe you should actually read Nietzsche's writings (especially e.g. BoT, GS, BGE, OtGoM, TotI & EH – preferably W. Kaufmann's translations), Bob, and not just secondary / tertiary derivative sources and polemics against his ideas.
:up: -
Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems Import on Natural Languages?Very marginal, imho. Read Philosophical Investigations instead.
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Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
The unintelligent (i.e. weak-minded) often, occasionally even ubiquitiously, oppress the intelligent ... with (e.g.) pseudo-scientific nonsense, religious dogmas, conspiracy theories, ethno-nationalist demogoguery, PC/Woke-identitarian ideologies, etc. And afflicted by D-K as you seem to be, BC, you're obviously oblivious to the prevalence of such insidious forms of oppression. :mask:Show me examples of when the weak are more oppressive than the strong. — BitconnectCarlos -
The Philosophy of Mysticism
In contrast to the philosopher who reflectively contemplates (i.e. unlearns 'learned denials of') how every presence conceals absence, I think the mystic meditates (i.e. unreasons (paradoxically / dialectically) 'inferential reasoning') in order to encounter, or surrender to, (the) absence that encompasses and dis/en-closes (un/en-folds) every presence. In other words, simplistically, they seem the opposite ends of a telescope or like complementary photo negatives of one another.I think in many ways a philosopher is somewhat of a mystic, wouldn't you say? — Outlander -
A Reversion to Aristotle
:sweat: Maybe diagnosed, certainly not "influenced" ...I would hypothesize it is substantially influenced by Nietzschien thought. — Bob Ross
:100:
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Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
:up: :up:When a clown moves into a palace, he does not become a king. The palace becomes a circus.
— Elizabeth Bangs · Jan 23, 2022 — jorndoe
If you haven't already, please consider this . -
To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?
I (mostly) agree but, since the relevent context of this thread discussion implicitly concerns "religion" (and explicity and more broadly concerns metaphysics), I think anti-supernatural is more precise and specific than "anti-delusional" (or, as you said earlier, "rational/logical").Because belief in the supernatural is one type of delusional belief. In being logical one rejects all types of delusion. — Harry Hindu -
To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?
Why do you think so?I think that anti-supernatural is too restrictive. — Harry Hindu -
Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)This summary legal analysis and discussion might be useful to understanding the practical impacts to Executive Branch (Article 2) of the 1July24 SCOTUS decision in the context of US legal and political history.
https://youtu.be/7cGT9EVvS7U?si=08Vx04UGMrH18UZw -
To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?
Well, I think materialism (i.e. only 'the material' is real) is a form nondualism.I see both materialism and idealism as being a bit limited and 'flat'. Non-dualism may be one option amongst others. — Jack Cummins
On the contrary, they preceeded Berkeley by millennia in both Western and Eastern philosophical traditions.Naturalism and realism can be seen as a radical departure from the idealism of Berkley.
I.e.the dual existence of mind and body or their embodied unityDescartesor Spinoza. The scientific description of the latter is embodied cognition (A. Damasio, G. Lakoff, T. Metzinger).
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Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
:smirk:Maybe a philosophy forum isn't for you. — Benkei -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank:lol: Go troll yourself, BitCunt.
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Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)Whaaaaaaat TF :brow: :down:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/02/politics/trump-sentencing-date-delay-proposal/index.html
Sentencing11July2418September24 :grimace: -
Suicide
... but does not know because she cannot know. Her mere "belief" – desperate guess – is an unwarranted hope, or fantasy (i.e. ideation¹) – thus, the "choice" to kill oneself might be valid and yet unsound; and often is unavoidable, even involuntary.If the person believes ... — creativesoul
Perhaps, but my point is that suicide is always either unsound (choice) or involuntary (abject / pathological).suicide is not always irrational — creativesoul
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_ideation [1] -
To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?
Well, at best, theism is incoherent.What does theism mean by "separate from" if it still can affect its creation? — Harry Hindu
"Idealistic" (i.e. supernatural).What type of connection is it between a cause and its subsequent effects - physical, idealistic, something else or none of the above?
Yes. However, theism posits a supernatural creator of nature, which is incoherent.Would it not be a naturalistic stance to take to say that because God has a causal relationship with its creation that God is natural?
I prefer anti-supernatural (though absurdist (Zapffe-Camus) would do).There simply isn't any valid evidence to support any of these claims .. reasonable/logical? -
To What Extent is the Idea of 'Non-duality' Useful in Bridging Between Theism and Atheism?A stray thought ...
Insofar as theism posits a creator separate from, though affecting, its creation (duality), atheism means rejection of theism (non-duality), no?
Likewise, if idealism posits both minds and ideas (duality), then materialism posits that only 'matter' is real (non-duality)?
Perhaps idealism and materialism are also, in effect, generalizations of theism and atheism, respectively. :chin:
(NB: In my case over forty years ago, materialism (subset of naturalism) was a consequence of atheism rather than the other way round.)
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