• Dualism and Interactionism
    @Janus @Fooloso4

    I applaud your dogged patience. :clap:
  • Culture is critical
    You are struggling as best you can, for the sake of all of us, yes?
    — universeness

    Hell, no! All of yous are on your own.

    Are you not still a secular democratic socialist?
    — universeness

    Nope. Cynical, burnt-out iconoclast
    Vera Mont
    :smirk:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Your late friend was so right (as history shows), and I agree with you too. How can there be any lasting peace for dispossessors-occupiers-oppressors unless they effectively genocide the Palestinians (like Indigenous peoples in the Americas have been)?
  • Culture is critical
    if we all ...universeness
    ... relinquished our divergent perspectives and interests. "We all" are always already entangled in at least as many or more win-lose / lose-lose than win-win games. "We few" micro-cooperators, perhaps many times over, is more like it – scarcity-exploiting partisans, sects, gangs, networks, tribes, etc. "We all", my friend, just doesn't effectively scale (re: global governance, the UN, international law enforcement (e.g. climate change, WMD proliferation, wealth laundering / tax-defrauding, etc) ... globalization ... communism ... "utopia", etc). AFAIK, wars & black markets are our most prevalent, recurring forms of macro-cooperation. Even the "Tower of Babel" myth is quite insightful about the inherent fractiousness of the human condition (ergo the unfortunate, historical utility of religio, religare). Don't forget, mate: at our best we're primates, not angels.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Mr. Trump is a criminal defendant. He is facing four felony charges. He is under the supervision of the criminal justice system. He does not have the right to say and do exactly as he pleases. … No other criminal defendant would be allowed to do so and I am not going to permit it in this case. — Tonya Chutkan, US District Judge, Wash. DC, 16Oct23
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/16/judge-imposes-gag-order-on-donald-trump-in-d-c-trial-00121743

    Who's your daddy now, bitch?! :lol:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Thank's for posting Harari's observations.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    I guess one of you MAGA morons will have to murder a judge, prosecutor or prosecution witness in order to convince some court to revoke Seditionist-Traitor-Rapist-Loser1's bail and remand him to pre-trail detention like every other indicted thuggish lowlife. :mask:
  • Culture is critical
    "The vast majority" of the house is not yet on fire. Where there's smoke, the house is on fire.
  • Absolute nothingness is only impossible from the perspective of something
    [T]here may be no ultimate reason for existence; it may be that reality is a brute fact.Ø implies everything
    This is entailed by "nothingness is impossible" (i.e. there cannot be not-something), no?
  • Culture is critical
    :up: :up:

    ↪180 Proof Wow, I gave a lot of time to my explanation and you have not kept your promise to address democracy.Athena
    Well, to begin with, I didn't understand your "explanation" (maybe because it doesn't directly address the objections I'd raised here ). Also, I believe I've expressed my position on "democracy" in a number of exchanges with you previously, such as earlier on this thread ...

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/807143

    Okay please list 10 characteristics of democracy and perhaps say something about how they relate to our ideas of right and wrong.Athena
    Here's an excerpt from an old thread with the disingenuously polemical title Why Must You Be Governed?
    Democratize the economy as much as practically possible.

    Political democracy in the absence of economic democracy (aka "economic autocracy" (becomes neoliberal corporatocracy)) has always been a failing project. [ ... ] Read A. Smith closely. & Read P. Kropotkin closely. Read D. Schweickart & T. Picketty closely.
    180 Proof
    In other words, "our ideas of right and wrong", Athena, are symptoms of the neoliberal ideology (or there is no alternative (T-I-N-A) to the corporatist status quo). The American Republic was founded on economic autocracy (read Charles A. Beard, 1913) just as classical Athens – your "educated for democracy" ideal – was founded on economic autoocracy (read Orlando Patterson, 1991); and the manifest purpose of "US education before 1958" was the same as it has been ever since 1958 (except maybe in style): generation after generation, for students and their teachers to internalize unquestioning conformity to and support for economic autocracy (e.g. neoliberal corporatism) in order to reinforce being full-time consumers while, at most, being quadrennial citizens. For 'the demos', of course, this is (still) a failing project.
  • Are you against the formation of a techno-optimistic religion?
    "I have no idea" because what you describe, Bret, does not make any sense to me. Post-singularity ubiquitous smart nanotech seems more likely to transform planetary civilization into a Global Experience Machine^ (à la "The Matrix" or wireheading^^) than to enable hedonic beings to somehow "transcend" (or to religiously seek "transcendence from") being hedonic.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine ^

    https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/wireheading ^^
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Iran has used Hamas to set the trap and Israel must take the bait in Gaza. The US-NATO hegemon will eventually extract Israel from the trap of razing Gaza while (maybe) deterring Iran et al from opening up secondary fronts (e.g. Hezbollah). NYC, Paris and/or London might become tertiary fronts (TBD).
  • Metaphysics as an Illegitimate Source of Knowledge
    A truth-maker is a referent to which a truth-claim (i.e. truth-bearer) statement refers that makes the statement true; it's not the "agent" asserting or "making" the statement.

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truthmakers/
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Eliminate Hamas180 Proof
    and then ...
    Free Palestine
    — 180 Proof

    You mean free from Hamas and other terrorist organizations.
    magritte
    Yes, including free from the post-1967, settler-apartheid strategems of the State of Israel.

    Evict Settlers.
    — 180 Proof

    Israel has actually evicted settlers.
    ssu
    Evict settlers from ALL of the internationally recognized Occupied Palestinian Territories.

    https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/201007_by_hook_and_by_crook

    https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-205221/
  • If only...
    :up:

    Lucid daydream/s of a (not-dystopian) post-singularity, posthuman f u t u r e is my "ideal place". My damn novel (series), however, just hasn't gotten – let itself be – written yet.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Eliminate Hamas :fire:
    Remove Likud.
    Evict All Settlers.

    Free Palestine :flower:
  • Culture is critical
    Unfortunately, I doubt that anyone understands the importance of what I am saying.Athena
    :roll: :shade:
  • If only...
    I've never heard of Islandia so thanks for that. I guess I liked Huxley's Island when I read it as a high school freshman. A few years later I read Ursula Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea trilogy, and though I was mad for Tolkien's "Middle Earth" back then (re: my fantasy roleplaying games days), the only fantasy world that was ever an "ideal place" for me was the archipelago-world of "Earthsea" – especially the islands of "Roke" & "Gont" – which became more real to me with each subsequent book.

    Btw, a sister of my best 'non-jock' friend in high school was a huge fan of both Anne McCafferty's Pern & Andre Norton's Witch World series, IIRC – I never got past the first volume of either series. Now that I think of it, my earliest "ideal place" during the '70s even before "Earthsea" was probably Clarke/Kubrick's alt-"Earth" in 2001: A Space Odyssey (though I was (still am) a '60s Star Trek obsessive too – "The Federation" was cool but not "science fiction-y" enough even for my grade school nerdiness :nerd: ).
  • If only...
    My "ideal place" is (still) the late anarchist and novelist Iain M. Banks' galaxy-spanning civilization The Culture developed and explored through nine space opera novels and one collection of short stories (start here).
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    Two women with
    the same claim
    came to the feet of
    the wise king. Two women,
    but only one baby.
    The king knew
    someone was lying.
    What he said was
    Let the child be
    cut in half; that way
    no one will go
    empty-handed. He
    drew his sword.
    Then, of the two
    women, one
    renounced her share:
    this was
    the sign, the lesson.
    Suppose
    you saw your mother
    torn between two daughters:
    what could you do
    to save her but be
    willing to destroy
    yourself—she would know
    who was the rightful child,
    the one who couldn't bear
    to divide the mother.
    — A Fable, Louise Glück

    d. 2023
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    An interesting interview with former Israel PM Ehud Olmert from 11Oct23 ...
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    What is 'zionism without justice' but ...?
    He who sows injustice will reap violence, and the rod of his wrath will fail. — Proverbs 22:8
  • Pacifism and the future of humanity
    :up:

    I was an idealist when I was young, but life turned me into a realistAgree-to-Disagree
    It's called "maturity", no? Having become wiser.

    :up:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    No justice, no peace.

    When the oppressor Goliath has been (by any means necessary) bled enough by the knives & slings of their oppressed David, (maybe) they will try coexisting without oppression (e.g. overwhelming rejection of Likud's hardline apartheid-terror policies). The tragedy is, however, it may be decades-too-late for oppressed David to give up on Goliath's oppression even if Goliath relents one day and gives it up. Like survivors of genocide, slavery, ethnic cleansing, mass dispossession – "Never Again" (also) means forever wounded, crippled, haunted, cursed ... vengeful. :death: :fire:

    No peace, no justice.

    Has there ever been a version of "Waiting For God" in which "Estragon & Vladimir" are portrayed by two elderly women, an Israeli (Golia) and a Palestinian (Davi), on a low dusty hill in a refugee camp? Is "Godot" their fathers, husbands, sons & daughters ... ancestors? Were these widows once cousins? step-sisters? in-laws? lovers? Maybe :flower:

    Friday prayers. And the children of Abraham are murdering each other's children again. Why?! Well, why not ...
  • Pacifism and the future of humanity
    :cool: :up: Ah, the good old Dialectic strikes again!
  • Pacifism and the future of humanity
    @Vera Mont @Pantagruel
    History teaches ad nauseam that we, as a species, are incapable of deliberative self-governance (i.e. liberty) above the municipal scale, as the contemporary state of "global affairs" savagely demonstrates.180 Proof
    By "history" I mean only recorded history, which is the operational framework of modern civilization/s, no? Left to our own state-capitalist (plutocratic) devices, IMO, "global governance / unity" is thereby manifestly improbable (i.e. an intractable N-body problem).
  • Culture is critical
    Once you have (or someone else has) explicitly addressed the questions I've raised to you, ma'am, then I'll gladly discuss "democracy" (what that has to do with a fundamentallly undemocratic, 'constitutional republic' like the US is lost on me) and its "characteristics". :up:
  • Culture is critical
    Seriously, I believe humans are capable of good reasoning based on truth, but I also think that requires an education that we are not getting.
    — Athena

    When and where in the last half millenium did most, or many, human beings get such an education? And why did such an education fall out of favor with educated leaders (i.e. movers & shakers) so much so that, apparently, "we are not getting" it any longer?
    180 Proof

    We have been going through social breakdown or what some may call creative destruction at least since 1958 when the National Defense Education Act radically changed the purpose of education.Athena
    My question above still stands, Athena, to which I add: so what was the pre-"1958" "purpose of education" vis-à-vis state-sanctioned racial terrorism / legal segregation, systemic discrimination against women & gays, widespread unfair & unsafe labor practices, endemic populist antisemitism, wholesale environmental degregation by agriculture & heavy industry, and ongoing land (and mineral rights) theft from and 'public erasure' of Indigenous Americans ... at least since the ratification of the US Constitution in 1788?

    I do not remember the ramifications of "the social breakdown" after "1958" being any more structurally exploitative and systemically discriminatory than it was before "1958" ... but in fact (gradually) quite a bit less so. Help me / us to understand, Athena, exactly how things have fallen off the proverbial cliff since "1958" as compared to the preceeding "good old days" (& centuries ...) Thanks.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    What apartheid is referring to in this case is not the situation within Israel, but the situation between Israel and the Palestinian territories.Tzeentch
    :up:
  • Pacifism and the future of humanity
    "We" are bald, semi-delusional (akratic!), gossipy primates gifted / gimped with large Stone Age brains which are insufficiently adapted to solving accelerating Information Age problems. Very clever cunts are we pseudo-sapiens; yet tens of millennia of oligarchic dominance hierarchies, euphemistically called "civilizations", have maldeveloped our cooperative instincts/habits by naturalizing the countless 'divide-n-control' strategems with which we have administratively straitjacketed or hog-tied ourselves on a planetary scale. History teaches ad nauseam that we, as a species, are incapable of deliberative self-governance (i.e. liberty) above the municipal scale, as the contemporary state of "global affairs" savagely demonstrates. I'm afraid, Pantagruel, 'public reason' is, though indispensible, wholly inadequate for overcoming cynical / sectarian populisms ... Oh yeah, also there are no "pacificists" alive for long in foxholes. :victory: :mask:

    Slaves to stupidity with no master but greed.Pantagruel
    :clap: Well said!
  • The Mind-Created World
    I interpret Kant's idea of in-itself as signifying that we know only what appears to us, which is not to say we know nothing of consciousness-independent real things, but that the reality of those things is not exhausted by how they appear to us and other cognitive beings.Janus
    Yes! :100: