• A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Out of curiosity, what ontology would you subscribe to?Bob Ross
    By ontology I understand the constitutive, necessary and sufficient conditions of all human practices; therefore, it makes most sense to "subscribe" to naturalism (à la Laozi, Epicurus, Spinoza, Hume, Nietzsche, Dewey ... )

    Do you think that consciousness can be provably determined as reducible to brain states?
    I think "consciousness" – phenomenal self modelingsupervenes on the brain's neurological systems bodily interacting with its local environment.

    What problems do you find with positing a Universal Spirit?
    Well, for starters, I don't find any compelling reasons to believe that entities such as "ghosts" or "spirits" exist (except in fictions) and so "positing a Universal Spirit" seems to me merely an ad hoc projection of wishful or magical thinking akin to e.g. aether, phlogiston, chi, juju, mojo, astral planes, "The Force", etc. "Universal Spirit" certainly is not parsimonious, probably violates conservation laws and as a conjecture does not explain anything.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    In other words, disembodied consciousness (i.e. spirits) :roll:
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    No doubt you're correct theologically ...
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    So, if our brains are representations like anything else [ ... ] The question then is what is doing the representing?Janus
    Great minds think (confuse themselves) alike. :point:

    From this old post: if "to be is to be perceived", then, for a perceiver to be, a perceiver must be perceived by another perceiver ... by another perceiver . .. by another perceiver .. ad infinitum. [ ... ] My naturalism is too pragmatic for this conceptual jabberwocky.180 Proof
  • Atheist Dogma.
    :up:

    "The opium of the masses" makes them junkies and perpetually keeps them down-and-out, dog-eat-dog ... A 'sacramental' vicious cycle. :pray: :sad:
  • Science as Metaphysics
    I still don't know why you [Gnomon] have received such reactions. What forums did you go to? Because, here, it would be out of place to label you as religious and irrational, unless, of course, you're talking about religion and theism.L'éléphant
    I guess you haven't been paying attention. If you really care to know, just peruse the few posts below of exchanges with @Gnomon where, after hundreds of previous exchanges with him over the last few years, he had finally copped to his own crypto-"Panendeism"-of-the-gaps sophistry. :mask:

    • two months ago ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/792659

    • three months ago ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/781656

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/783039

    • four months ago ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/781098
  • Atheist Dogma.
    For pissing off that same supernatural entity you then rely on saving you - for a price.Vera Mont
    Yep. "Salvation seeking" is – a self-abnegating Stockholm Syndrome hostage fantasy – older than the oldest "sacred" scripture. "Spiritual" savants, spooked in their cribs by "spirits" and since having learned helplessly to "hope" for permanent escape from their "wretched" bodies in order to become / return to being "happy spirits" for a price, deny natura naturans – e.g. "angels", "astral projections" & "perpetual motions". I'm sure @Wayfarer et al will (dogmatically) misrecognize my take on "spirituality" ... :halo:
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    So, if our brains are representations like anything else [ ... ] The question then is what is doing the representing?Janus
    :fire:
  • The Debt Ceiling Issue
    Both Schumer & McConnell are nothing if not lifelong, loyal-to-a-fault employees of the billionaire political parties donor-class and committed to avoiding default on US Debt. The US Senate will easily pass the bill.

    *

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/810055

    And two weeks ago ...
    Biden to sign the clean debt ceiling raise into law by the first [fifth] of June.

    No US Default -– come hell or highwater! – is my prediction.
    180 Proof
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/31/debt-ceiling-final-vote-house-congress :cool:

    @Mikie
  • Atheist Dogma.
    There is an irony in atheism insofar as it is a theological position.NOS4A2
    It depends on how one uses the term. For instance, I use atheism as the claim that 'theistic claims' are not true – without asserting anything about g/G, simply demonstrating that 'what theists say about their g/G' is incoherent and/or false (which, if that's the case, entails that 'theistic deities' are fictions). Anyway, in the main, atheism is not a "theological position" any more than celibacy is a sexual position.
  • Atheist Dogma.
    Religion is about control, that seems to be the nutshell here.Darkneos
    Religion doesn’t answer how to live so much as tell/force you to live as such or else.Darkneos
    Even Christ wasn’t exactly a good guy in the book itself. There is a reason a lot of atheists say they became atheists by reading the Bible.Darkneos
    :100:
  • Atheist Dogma.
    So a piece of Christian Dogma may be "Jesus Christ rose from the dead". What makes this dogma?Moliere
    The claim is an authoritative yet wholly unsubstantiated opinion, no?
  • Why Monism?
    Another point is that even though causality and propositionality (or causes and reasons) might seem incommensurable to us that can be, as Spinoza says, on account of looking at the one thing from two different incommensurable perspectives and may not reflect on the nature of physical processes, but rather on our naive understanding of them, or our dualistic "either/ or" kind of thinking.Janus
    :up: :up:

    Promissory materialism, then.Wayfarer
    Well, they don't cash counterfeit idealism at my local bank. :smirk:
  • Is Star Wars A Shared Mythos?
    Star Wars – live-action cartoon – is still for those kids who want little to no science (plausibility) in their fiction. A pop culture "kewl" monomyth über-hyped, IIRC, during the Reagan era (e.g. Soviet "Evil Empire" & "SDI"). I suspect a lot of "the fan hate for G.L." is because of "Ewoks", "Jar-Jar Binks" and (as my 30 year old nephew had remarked several times when he was still in high school) Lucas excluding all/most of "the Extended Universe" (novels, etc) from the Star Wars canon. But hey, I was a 13 year old die-hard Trekkie back in '77, so what did (do) I know? :smirk:
  • Atheist Dogma.
    'What is' presupposes whatever is not impossible to realize.
  • Atheist Dogma.
    I don't think we have access to reality or can even define it, except in the shallowest terms.Tom Storm
    What do you mean by "reality'?

    If we are real, how can we not "have access to reality"?

    Any reason to doubt that you are real, Tom? :eyes:

    IME, all atheists seek "how to flourish without gods ghosts demons & magic?" and some come to "Begin by learning 'how to discern what is from what is not and then align expectations – beliefs – with what is'". In this regard, as far as I'm concerned, 'religious fundamentalism' – like e.g. psychosis or incontinence – is non sequitur. :mask:
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Wow. You read Witty even worse than you read Aristotle, sir. :gasp:
  • The Naive Theory of Consciousness
    That's the weasel argument. We happily accept the idea of a physical quantity – a measure of "stuff" or substantial being, such as charge. And so the linguistic trick is get us thinking of a quality – qualia – in a similarly physicalist and countable way. Little jolts of experience like the feeling of red or smell of a rose flashing through the mind.

    The sleight of hand works as our folk metaphysical notions of physical quantity are as suspect as our ones about mental qualities.

    Something fundamental like charge is treated as if it were like a measure of some fluid stuff that flows. It is already pictured and talked about in an overly concrete fashion. Then Chalmers takes that folk physics and applies it to the mind as if consciousness is also a quantity of this atomistic stuff called qualia, or isolated flashes of experience.
    apokrisis
    :clap: :100:

    There is something it is like to be a football.NOS4A2
    :sweat: :up:
  • Atheist Dogma.
    Is X a dogma when X is demonstrably true? I don't think so.

    :flower: Reminds of my Granny ...
  • Atheist Dogma.
    So critical intelligence is the cause of literal-minded ignorance? Freethinking causes unthinking violence? Logical thinking causes magical thinking? The decentering Mediocrity Principle & Darwinian Evolution cause reactionary Manichaean conspiracies & "end of days" cults? "Atheism" has caused the Christian blood libel of Jews, the Crusades against Muslims, millennia of Hindu castes, well over a millennium of pogroms persecutions tortures and executions of indigenous heathens, "heretics", Jews, Gypsies, "witches", homosexuals, et al culminating in cyclical fraternal blood orgies aka "Wars of Religion" principly in Europe & the Middle East? then modern day Jihadi & Zionist terrorisms? and all In The Name Of God ... "because of the infidels"?! :eyes:
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Aristotle's definition of "man" as rational animal.Metaphysician Undercover
    Actually, he says "zoon politikon" (political animal), yet given his monumental Organon, Aristotle tends to get tagged with that "rational animal" (which I think actually comes from Plato). Anyway, our uniquely distinguishing feature as a species, I think, is that, despite mostly being delusional, we are collaborative knowledge-producers. :fire:
  • Why Monism?
    Thanks for the link. I agree with @Fooloso4's argument regardless of its fidelity or not with Aristotle because I hold the same view ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/811145
    ... informed by modern information / computational theory. I stand by my earlier dismissal of Aristotle's cosmological argument as a pedantic aside by you, MU, that misses Fooloso4's conceptually salient forest for your anachronistic trees.
  • Science as Metaphysics
    ... spelled "Meta-Physics", and defined as the science of the non-physical

    Does any of that make sense to you?
    Gnomon
    :zip:
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    I've no idea what you're saying.
  • Why Monism?
    ... why would you accept Fooloso4's assessment that for Aristotle there are no independent forms?Metaphysician Undercover
    Fooloso4's statementMetaphysician Undercover
    I cannot find this post (wherein I "agree"), reply with a link please.
  • Why Monism?
    I agree with @Fooloso4's remarks about hylomorphism. IIRC, Aristotle's (like Plato's & Aquinas') cosmological argument is completely unsound and therefore cannot account for any matters of fact, let alone notions like "independent forms" (whatever that means).

    An old post exchange between you & I on this topic:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/350254
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    act in harmony with your naturewonderer1
    Given that our species nature is real (i.e. the fact that there are things which are bad, harmful, suffering-inducing to do to our kind), acting towards one another in harmony with our species nature is 'moral realism', no?

    My question wasn't rhetorical, as if to argue either an absolute ethic or nihilism. I was asking why it's not a dichotomy.Hanover
    Simply because there's a third option of moral pragmatism, a fourth is eudaimonism, a fifth is dis/utilitarianism, a sixth is deontologism, etc. Anyway, I'll stick with my rabbi Hillel's pre-scientific yet naturalistic, ethical principle:
    What you find hateful [harmful], do not do to anyone.
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    What then makes ethical realism intelligible?Hanover
    Grounding ethics in the real world problems – facticity – of the flourishing (contra languishing) of natural beings. To wit: 'Why be morally good?' is nearly synonymous with 'Why be physically & mentally healthy?' or 'Why be ecologically sustainable?' or 'Why be socially & politically just?" Answer: In order, as natural beings, to cultivate the flourishing (contra languishing) of as many natural beings as possible.

    Notice that when Hillel the Elder was asked to summarize the Torah, he did not reply: What God finds hateful, do not do to anyone. 'Myths of gods' were (are) only excuses (superstitions) for socially admonishing, even punishing (scapegoating), moral wrongdoing but, as mere question-beggars, gods do not intelligibly justify anything.

    Without ethical realism, how do you avoid nihilism?
    False dichotomy.
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    :fire:

    You've got a few choices here with your secular humanism: (1) accept a subjective morality but chase the elusive idea that your there are universal subjective truths (which there aren't), (2) use secular terms to appease yourself that you're not actually a theist, or (3) accept the nihilism inherent in the positionHanover
    False trilemma ...
    (1) n/a
    (2) n/a
    (3) non-sectarianism =/= "nihilism" :roll:

    As I understand it, the ethical objective of secular humanism, faciltated by pedagogy and public policy, is non-sectarian, eusocial flourishing of human individuals. Esteemable in principle but, as history shows, woefully uneven and inadequate in practice; however, better than all / most of the major sectarian alternatives – especially for women and girls, homosexuals, ethnic / color minorities, natural & social sciences, nonreligious arts, as well as freethinkers & nonbelievers.

    Anyway, as I discern it, Hanover, answering a mystery with a greater mystery actually isn't intelligible. Both "God created it" and "God commands it" only beg metaphysical and ethical questions, respectively, which constitutes, IMO, passive nihilism (i.e. literal make-believe). Plato's Euthyphro and Epicurus' Riddle make this abundantly clear to those of us without an overwhelming emotional – self-serving/flattering – need for 'providence' (or magical guarantees).

    This system of belief is not beholden to rational thought ...Noble Dust
    I appreciare your honesty.
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    I agree with the sentiment; the future we're striving for, however, will not be available to 90odd percent of our species for many reasons including various forms of institutionalized ignorance and learned helplessness (e.g. religious / political ideologies, philosophical idealisms, new ageisms, etc). Natural selection, it seems to me, will be superceded by technological selection: apotheosis or extinction, no? In the meantime, there's Godot (& JWST) to consider ... :death: :flower:
  • Why Monism?
    :ok: If you say so ...
  • Why Monism?
    [ ... ] Wheeler conceived of information, not as non-physical, but as "a fundamental physical entity"!

    @Gnomon :point: You also might want to read this to educate yourself as to the diversity of views on the matter of information.

    This is nice apt summation:

    According to Aristotle biological beings are a single physical entity. There are no separate forms and hyle floating around waiting to be combined. There is not one without the other, substantiated in living physical entities, that is, substances.
    — Fooloso4
    Janus
    :fire: :100: