• Atheist Dogma.
    So critical intelligence is the cause of literal-minded ignorance? Freethinking causes unthinking violence? Logical thinking causes magical thinking? The decentering Mediocrity Principle & Darwinian Evolution cause reactionary Manichaean conspiracies & "end of days" cults? "Atheism" has caused the Christian blood libel of Jews, the Crusades against Muslims, millennia of Hindu castes, well over a millennium of pogroms persecutions tortures and executions of indigenous heathens, "heretics", Jews, Gypsies, "witches", homosexuals, et al culminating in cyclical fraternal blood orgies aka "Wars of Religion" principly in Europe & the Middle East? then modern day Jihadi & Zionist terrorisms? and all In The Name Of God ... "because of the infidels"?! :eyes:
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Aristotle's definition of "man" as rational animal.Metaphysician Undercover
    Actually, he says "zoon politikon" (political animal), yet given his monumental Organon, Aristotle tends to get tagged with that "rational animal" (which I think actually comes from Plato). Anyway, our uniquely distinguishing feature as a species, I think, is that, despite mostly being delusional, we are collaborative knowledge-producers. :fire:
  • Why Monism?
    Thanks for the link. I agree with @Fooloso4's argument regardless of its fidelity or not with Aristotle because I hold the same view ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/811145
    ... informed by modern information / computational theory. I stand by my earlier dismissal of Aristotle's cosmological argument as a pedantic aside by you, MU, that misses Fooloso4's conceptually salient forest for your anachronistic trees.
  • Science as Metaphysics
    ... spelled "Meta-Physics", and defined as the science of the non-physical

    Does any of that make sense to you?
    Gnomon
    :zip:
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    I've no idea what you're saying.
  • Why Monism?
    ... why would you accept Fooloso4's assessment that for Aristotle there are no independent forms?Metaphysician Undercover
    Fooloso4's statementMetaphysician Undercover
    I cannot find this post (wherein I "agree"), reply with a link please.
  • Why Monism?
    I agree with @Fooloso4's remarks about hylomorphism. IIRC, Aristotle's (like Plato's & Aquinas') cosmological argument is completely unsound and therefore cannot account for any matters of fact, let alone notions like "independent forms" (whatever that means).

    An old post exchange between you & I on this topic:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/350254
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    act in harmony with your naturewonderer1
    Given that our species nature is real (i.e. the fact that there are things which are bad, harmful, suffering-inducing to do to our kind), acting towards one another in harmony with our species nature is 'moral realism', no?

    My question wasn't rhetorical, as if to argue either an absolute ethic or nihilism. I was asking why it's not a dichotomy.Hanover
    Simply because there's a third option of moral pragmatism, a fourth is eudaimonism, a fifth is dis/utilitarianism, a sixth is deontologism, etc. Anyway, I'll stick with my rabbi Hillel's pre-scientific yet naturalistic, ethical principle:
    What you find hateful [harmful], do not do to anyone.
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    What then makes ethical realism intelligible?Hanover
    Grounding ethics in the real world problems – facticity – of the flourishing (contra languishing) of natural beings. To wit: 'Why be morally good?' is nearly synonymous with 'Why be physically & mentally healthy?' or 'Why be ecologically sustainable?' or 'Why be socially & politically just?" Answer: In order, as natural beings, to cultivate the flourishing (contra languishing) of as many natural beings as possible.

    Notice that when Hillel the Elder was asked to summarize the Torah, he did not reply: What God finds hateful, do not do to anyone. 'Myths of gods' were (are) only excuses (superstitions) for socially admonishing, even punishing (scapegoating), moral wrongdoing but, as mere question-beggars, gods do not intelligibly justify anything.

    Without ethical realism, how do you avoid nihilism?
    False dichotomy.
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    :fire:

    You've got a few choices here with your secular humanism: (1) accept a subjective morality but chase the elusive idea that your there are universal subjective truths (which there aren't), (2) use secular terms to appease yourself that you're not actually a theist, or (3) accept the nihilism inherent in the positionHanover
    False trilemma ...
    (1) n/a
    (2) n/a
    (3) non-sectarianism =/= "nihilism" :roll:

    As I understand it, the ethical objective of secular humanism, faciltated by pedagogy and public policy, is non-sectarian, eusocial flourishing of human individuals. Esteemable in principle but, as history shows, woefully uneven and inadequate in practice; however, better than all / most of the major sectarian alternatives – especially for women and girls, homosexuals, ethnic / color minorities, natural & social sciences, nonreligious arts, as well as freethinkers & nonbelievers.

    Anyway, as I discern it, Hanover, answering a mystery with a greater mystery actually isn't intelligible. Both "God created it" and "God commands it" only beg metaphysical and ethical questions, respectively, which constitutes, IMO, passive nihilism (i.e. literal make-believe). Plato's Euthyphro and Epicurus' Riddle make this abundantly clear to those of us without an overwhelming emotional – self-serving/flattering – need for 'providence' (or magical guarantees).

    This system of belief is not beholden to rational thought ...Noble Dust
    I appreciare your honesty.
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    I agree with the sentiment; the future we're striving for, however, will not be available to 90odd percent of our species for many reasons including various forms of institutionalized ignorance and learned helplessness (e.g. religious / political ideologies, philosophical idealisms, new ageisms, etc). Natural selection, it seems to me, will be superceded by technological selection: apotheosis or extinction, no? In the meantime, there's Godot (& JWST) to consider ... :death: :flower:
  • Why Monism?
    :ok: If you say so ...
  • Why Monism?
    [ ... ] Wheeler conceived of information, not as non-physical, but as "a fundamental physical entity"!

    @Gnomon :point: You also might want to read this to educate yourself as to the diversity of views on the matter of information.

    This is nice apt summation:

    According to Aristotle biological beings are a single physical entity. There are no separate forms and hyle floating around waiting to be combined. There is not one without the other, substantiated in living physical entities, that is, substances.
    — Fooloso4
    Janus
    :fire: :100:
  • Understanding the Christian Trinity
    :100: :up:

    @universeness – Time is conventionally conceived of as consisting in past, present and future tenses and their simultaneity denotes eternity. The JCI deity is conceived of as 'eternal' which imples that all of the modes – personas – of its being simultaneously exist (like 'experiential time tense' in a block universe). 'One face, three masks' – from the believer's temporal perspective.

    Btw, the Christian Trinity has nothing on the even more ancient Hindu Trimūrti. As Nietzsche points out, theological religion is "Platonism for the masses", or an imaginative way to stimulate some degree of reflective thinking with regard to our place in 'the grand scheme' for those without the leisure or inclination to explicitly philosophize. As much as we'd like to think so, religion hasn't yet outlived its utility because the atavistic emotional need for 'invisible support' still remains for so many in so many places.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    If the mental cannot be explained in terms of the physical then the physical cannot be explained in terms of the mental.Fooloso4
    :up:

    But the point of the hard problem of consciousness argument is precisely that no amount of objective analysis can capture the first-person experience.Wayfarer
    In other words, a map (analysis ~ respresentation) is not informationally equivalent to its territory (experience) because a territory (experience) is
    computationally irreducible (otherwise it would be a map (analysis ~ representation)). There's no "hard problem", just a typical idealist / antirealist category error.

    @Bob Ross
  • Mind over matter: the mind can slow ageing.
    Negentropy decreases entropy....Pantagruel
    :roll:

    Correction: Local "negentropy" increases global entropy.
  • Why Monism?
    You can choose to accept pluralism, like William James and simply marvel at the multifaceted aspects of the world - this is valuable and instructive especially in terms of aesthetic appreciation. But it won't get you far, it seems to me to stop the search for underlying principlesManuel
    As long as it's a dynamic, nonreductive monism, I'm cool with it. :up:
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    The brain is part of an organism. Physicalism need not be reductive physicalism. The recognition that a living organism can be conscious, is not reductive. To look at an organism as a whole is not reductive physicalism. To claim that consciousness must come from elsewhere because a physical explanation must be reductive is misguided.Fooloso4
    :100: :fire:
  • Why Monism?
    :up: :up:
  • Mind over matter: the mind can slow ageing.
    Local "negentropy" only increases global entropy. "Mind" is an effect – recursive output – of a complexity which cannot decrease (re: dissipative structure). Given that cell senescence limits replication damage and slows the development of cancers which adaptively benefits an organism, birth, as they say, is the fundamental cause of death. One day, however, technosciences – products of "mind" – might provide some means to extend self-continuous brain functioning ("I, me, mine") to a nonbiological substrate in order to escape the rapid cell senescence of somatic biology. Until then, Benj, biological aging decay death is constitutively a priori (R. Brassier) and therefore mind-invariant.
  • Why Monism?
    The concept of information refers to a formalist (i.e. computational) description of systematic transformations (i.e. entropy), the necessary and sufficient conditions of which are its instantiation in physical processes. In other words, a "ghost" (i.e. disembodied – non-instantiable – string of operations) is nothing but an empty name.

    (... an operational definition rather than a platonic reification fallacy ...)

    @Gnomon @Wayfarer @Janus @Fooloso4

    Thoughts?
  • Science as Metaphysics
    How do you respond to the claim that science is founded on a metaphysical position - that reality can be understood?Tom Storm
    I think "science is founded on" pragmatic, or working, assumptions like that one. Such a "metaphysical position", however, may be a categorical generalization that has been subsequently deduced from scientific practices and findings.

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/739670

    Or do you view science as being less totalising than this claim and more tentative in its approach?
    Yes, IME, the results of science are only provisional (fallibilistic) and eliminable, not proven.

    So, yes, metaphysics isn't modern science, because it attempts to go beyond some of the limits of modern science.Pantagruel
    Maybe "metaphysics" only makes explicit (i.e. problematizes) "the limits" – presuppositions – "of modern science" ...
  • Science as Metaphysics
    Are 'metaphysical statements' experimentally testable? Does any 'metaphysical system' entail predictions about matters of fact? If not, then metaphysics isn't modern science.
  • Why Monism?
    Obviously. I posted that ancient Buddhist parable to support @Janus's apt reading of Pierre Hadot's work as compared to your typically biased (i.e. anti-naturalist, anti-pragmatic) misreading, sir.
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    :up:

    So in that sense noumena and phenomena can be understood to be the same thing seen under the two different aspects: in-themselves and as-they-appear.

    I remember reading somewhere that there are two schools of thought among Kant scholars: the dual world theorists and the dual aspect theorists.
    Janus
    :up:

    I'm in the dual-aspect school (à la Spinoza).
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Perhaps I'm confused: "noumenon" (singular as per Schopenhauer) has always seemed to me the limit, or horizon, of experiential cognition (or conceptualization) as such rather than a "thing-in-itself". That things can appear seems an intrinsic property of them being things (e.g. just as mappability is intrinsic to the territory) and is not just merely an illusory or occluding add-on – construction – of our "minds" (pace Kant, pace Berkeley, pace Plato). :chin:
  • Why Monism?
    I'm sure you both of gentlemen are familiar with some version of this parable, which is very much in line with Hadot's reflections on Hellenistic philosophies ...
    As the Buddha travelled around delivering his teachings, he gathered many followers who set aside their worldly life to follow him.

    One of these men was an intellectual named Malunkyaputra, who had been inspired by the Buddha’s deep insight. However, Malunkyaputra eventually grew frustrated with the Buddha, who seems to have avoided answering basic metaphysical questions, like “is there an afterlife?” and other grasping at understanding the universe its purposes.

    One day Malunkyaputra confronted the Buddha about it, and declared that, unless the Buddha answered his questions, Malunkyaputra would give up the Buddhist life and return to his old life within society.

    The Buddha responded with a story:

    Suppose a man has been shot with a poison arrow. His friends and family that were with him rush to call a doctor to remove the arrow and administer an antidote to the poison. But, before they’re able to, the man who was shot stops them, shouting “I will not let this arrow be removed until I know — who shot me? How tall was he? Of what material was his bow made?”

    Then the Buddha asked Malunkyaputra what he thought of the man in his story, who refused treatment for his injury until his questions about the man that shot him were answered. Malunkyaputra responded: “He is a fool — his questions are not relevant to treating his injury, and he will die before he gets them answered.”

    “Similarly,” said the Buddha, “I do not teach whether or not there is an afterlife and what it is like and such. I teach only how to remove the arrow of your suffering, by revealing its origin, and the Eightfold Path to its end.”
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    No object without subject.Wayfarer
    And each subject 'appears to itself' a secondary quality presupposing that it is fundamentally also an object.
  • Why Monism?
    As I remember it (it's a while since I read the book) Pierre Hadot in Philosophy as a Way of Life understands the various ancient Greek philosophical systems as sets of ideas designed to live by, not consisting of claims to be critiqued and argued over. Philosophy under that conception has a different purpose: to provide ways of living designed to free practitioners from the unruly desires, petty concerns, existential anxieties, and worldly attachments that can make life a misery.

    A modern equivalent would be Cognitive Behavior Therapy or Gestalt Therapy: if you undertake that practice, you are not there to argue about their different metaphysical or phenomenological claims, but rather to accept the set of ideas that constitute the therapy and practice in accordance with them to (hopefully) gain the result.

    So, as Hadot points out Stoicism, Skepticism, Cynicism, Epicureanism, Platonism and Neoplatonism all had very different sets of metaphysical ideas, but they were all similar in there status as philosophical and ethical practices designed to live in better ways. Epicureanism, for example, explicitly rejects the idea of afterlife.

    So, I don't think you can cite Hadot to support any contention that it was the metaphysical ideas in the ancient philosophies that were of primary importance: it is more likely that such ideas were as diverse within the systems as were the different kinds of people with their different mindsets, that they sought to attract.
    Janus
    :clap: :fire: Excellent synopsis!
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    Although I will also observe that yours is not a physicalist account of physicalism.Wayfarer
    That statement doesn't make any sense.

    Consider this ...


    Your thoughts?
  • A Case for Analytic Idealism
    I've described my understanding of the methodology this way ...
    Physicalism is a paradigm for generating conjectures or models and not a theoretical explanation of phenomena.180 Proof
  • Naturalism problem of evil
    For those who find the facticity of life – Zapffe's or Camus' absurd – so abhorrent, there's absolutely nothing to keep them living on. Why bother with antinatalism? Kill two birds with one stone – Suicide is painless. :mask:

    There are no "redeemers" in foxholes.

    :death: :flower: