1. The concept of the trinity is logically impossible
2. The nature of our existence remains unexplained
3. The integer of consciousness and subconsciousness is logically impossible
4. The nature of our consciousness is unexplained

Feel free to parse and ponder

Hey Poetic:

That's pretty good! But, I wonder :

1. How were they mislead (?)
2. If they were misled, is the statement a half-truth? That of course is logically impossible.
3. Were thier predictions based upon an inference of sorts I wonder?
4. Why do I even care to wonder?

Maybe Darwin could help us! After all, he said that abstract concepts ( like mathematics ) help us survive in the jungle LOL ( only kidding of course).

Here's an inference of sorts, maybe they were misled just like the metaphorical tree of knowledge! We are barred from perfect truth and the true nature of things...

Anywho, to that end regarding the last point about the mystery of existence and the nature of things:

Ah, existence is existential then! Sounds like the book of Ecclesiastes...

Sure Poetic, that's one reason why I posted earlier:

Socrates: "What Plato is about to say is false."
Plato: "Socrates has just spoken truly."

How can we resolve the truth value of those statements, and why do they exist...

Well, of course we don't know why a lot of things in nature exist, including ourselves. So maybe a better or more intriguing question is: how is it that we are able to produce unresolved paradox's like those 2 statements above.

Thus the analogies of brute mystery, unexplained phenomena, supernatural, et.al.

Hey Tim, I think your post is in response to 'God must be an atheist's' quote. I didn't say ...." or am I just denying the fact to myself that my belief makes no possible sense?"

He said that.

You, and other Christians have to ask yourself: can I believe in something that all logic says is not possible to exist? If I can believe it, am I completely gone, or am I just denying the fact to myself that my belief makes no possible sense?


Just a quick thought if I might. I never understood why people argue that, since there is phenomena in the world that defies logic; cosmology, consciousness, logic of self reference, law of excluded middle/half truth's existing, etc..

So in that sense, since we have these unexplained things happening, why is it such a leap to conclude that the supernatural exists?

Of course, Metaphysics are in large part theories, however, experience combined with inductive reasoning can connect the dots and make things plausible/probable. No?

Most economists agree that ideally it's best to have a free market. And deal with trade or economic disparities in other ways by policing regulations... At least then you wouldn't have cost increases from tariffs.

So maybe one question at least is, if Trump tries to negotiate tariffs for political favors then it was a big waste of time and people suffered economically for no reason.

Hey Frank well thank you kindly for asking my opinion. First of all today, ironically enough, Trump just said and I quote:

"China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine,"

That is scary on many levels. One obvious concern would relate to easing up on the tarrifs in return for a political favor of investigating a political opponent for personal gain.

As you know tariffs are controversial. Some say in the long run they work others say they don't since they don't encourage production efficiency here in the states. And the temporary cost increases to the consumer usually never decreases back to where it was.

If you remember back in June Harley-Davidson said they were moving some of their production to Europe because of retaliatory tarrifs from EU. In response to Trump’s import tariffs on steel/aluminum, Europeans targeted Harley by raising the U.S. motorcycle tariffs from 6% to 31%. This percent increase adds nearly $2,200 to the cost of an average motorcycle over there. So they layed off workers here and moved some production over there to avoid the tax and stay competitive over there.

The big picture in politics is basically how do we want our politicians to spend the money. So instead of tax cuts for large corporations I would just give them other incentives. I mean look at all the incentives that the farmer's get...

LOL, yes I wanted to ask his thoughts and comparison relative to endorsement of pollical violence...

Ha, indeed, indeed!

Let me try to get you out of this pickle; this pickle of self-consciousness (self-reference):

Socrates: "What Plato is about to say is false."
Plato: "Socrates has just spoken truly."


Which statement is true?

You forgot to add:

5. Seemingly supports far-rightwing Fascism by promoting pollical violence.

Since you mentioned "God" quite a bit, I would say George Berkeley's Idealism would be one possibility.

Oh yes, I am aware of that. I actually think it's a mistake not to include it, but that's just my personal opinion. As you know, I look at things in totality and try not to dichotomize where possible. At the very least, it establishes patterns that can be corroborated. And it also helps the voter to make an informed decision in 2020.

To answer your question, here's an example:

1. Donald Trump had affairs, paid off a pornstar and a Playboy bunny and lied about it on air Force one (Subsequently his lawyer was found guilty of campaign funds violation/fraud.)
2. Donald Trump was caught on tape (TMZ interview) disparaging women's genitalia ("...you can do anything, grab them by the pu$$y...").
3. Over his career Donald Trump and while in office, has made other explicit derogatory remarks towards women.
4. Misogyny is partially described as sexual objectivication and bellitlement of women
5. Is it reasonable to infer that Donald Trump is a misogynist.

Is this what we want in a President or should we accept it as the norm(?)

I will argue not. I hold my public officials to a higher standard. We can't just give up on our leadership values.

I could post more from the Mueller report that speaks to the aforementioned obstruction and/or personal interest and/or abuse of power concerns, but will hold off until the results of the Ukraine testimony comes in.

In the meantime, as a house-keeping matter, the logic that we are using is essentially Modus tollens rule of inference. This isn't like a priori formal logic, instead it deals with probabilities and the likelihood of things happening. A couple examples:

If the watch-dog detects an intruder, the watch-dog will bark.
The watch-dog did not bark.
Therefore, no intruder was detected by the watch-dog.

If I am the axe murderer, then I can use an axe.
I cannot use an axe.
Therefore, I am not the axe murderer.

Feel free to parse and ponder.

As far as the phenomenal description of the Trinity, don't get too hung-up on the incoherence part, as you say. Remember, our own conscious existence (and the nature thereof) is not coherent.

That's one reason why Christianity (Jesus) is more relatable to us humans.

…..NICE!!!!

Ok, our work is done here LOL

"This One Effect runs continuously. "


Conservation Energy- energy is neither created or destroyed:

By conservation of energy
Energy is not lost
Einstein's relativity
Extends infinity

Hahaha. Yes, they/we need to get with the times.

When I said supernatural, I meant beyond the laws of nature. My Metaphysical theory relates to a Dipolar God. You know me, I do not like to dichotomize things lol. (Thanks Maslow!).

For example, a Dipolar God (see process theology Whitehead and Hartshorne) incorporates two contradictory concepts of a logically timeless, necessary Being, in a world of contingency/randomness/cause and effect. Kind of like how timeless mathematical truths demonstrate/describe our physically-dependent universe and existence.

"Dipolar theism, according to Charles Hartshorne, understands God as both absolute and relative, abstract and concrete, eternal and temporal, necessary and contingent, infinite and finite (DR). The being of God does not exclude but rather includes the being of the world" .

Yep the pundits have used that word 'dangerous' to describe him ever since he was elected, now the reality is coming to pass. I'm watching it now...

Speaking of dangerous, referring to the Ukraine whistleblower he said, and I quote : " You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now."

The dude's got to go, he's embarrassing to our country

LOL, that's deep dude ha. Ok one more:

Fourth dimension is fine
5th dimension better
Truth is not static
But dynamic states through time

As you were.

Yo PoeticU, where you been brother, ha !
I was actually thinking about you when I delved into the thought or premise of eternity.

Metaphysical theories,
have perplexed man throughout the ages
Its existence like a season,
Its purpose discovered turning pages

Some say God's the answer
Many question why
Patterns exist in the universe
Through time, by and by

Well said Wayfarer, well said sir.

Here's a fun thought:

A. The universe requires time for its existence
B. Existence requires time for its own existence
C. Time is eternity
D. Eternity is time

The universe might exist supernaturally, beyond any sense of causation (or time).

Like John Kasich:
"Tariffs are a bad idea. Debt is a bad idea. Family separation is a bad idea. Demonizing immigrants is a bad idea. And breaking down our alliances is bad too,” Kasich told the AP in December.

Yes... I think the Republican voters deserve a better alternative and although not impossible, the impeachment inquiry may be enough to tip the scales in the direction of a Republican primary.. .

Being a modern independent myself, I would certainly consider a moderate Republican ....
https://fortune-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/fortune.com/2019/04/22/republican-presidential-candidates-2020/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15699644718972&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Ffortune.com%2F2019%2F04%2F22%2Frepublican-presidential-candidates-2020%2F

Unfortunately the impeachment inquiry is what you have to do to gain access to documents and educate the public.

The taxpayer has a right to know.

It's a win win. If he survives, it will help make an informed choice for 2020.

Yep I know. It's that mobster/thug mentality that he surrounded himself with growing up. And people fell for that stuff, geese.

We gotta smarten up. It's scary too. Just think how the whistleblower feels. I mean the whistleblower laws are there to protect folks so that they feel encouraged to report suspicious behavior/activity....otherwise we loose that check and balance.

I know I worked in Government...

Very well said! Your last post should be a 'sticky'!!!

We're all talking common sense here!

Yep, great point.

BTW, I'm back in private sector, but I used to work for the Government so I'm not talking out my arse.

I sort of get that but:

a. It's against the law: Federal election law, administered by the Federal Election Commission, prohibits contributions, donations and other expenditures by “foreign nationals” in any federal, state or local election as well an exchange of any “thing of value.” ( Most recently, Section 303 of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002, also known as the McCain-Feingold Act, strengthened the ban on foreign money in U.S. electioneering.)

b. It can obviously encourage abuses that we see like; the good ol' boy system, favors, promise for a promise/quid pro qou, lifting sanctions that might hurt other countries, domestic economic policy impacts/foreign trade negotiations, all sorts of things relating to national security interests.

Again, this is Swamp Team stuff. This guy [President Trump] sold us another false bill of goods. It's frustrating to say the least.

Regarding the value of an impeachment inquiry:

It's my understanding that under that process it allows for better access to documents.

And for the 2020 election, it will help the public make an educated decision on some of the facts surrounding that Ukraine deal.

I have a quick question for you or anyone else regarding putting politically sensitive files on the national security server:

1. The TNet (national security system) has access controls and auditing safeguards.
2. The system keeps track of who created or uploaded files, who looked at them, who modified them and how and who printed them out.
3. The next level-up is called NICE top secrete code-word server. (About only 20 percent of National Security Council staff members are NICE users.)
4. Trump officials put the Ukraine phone call minutes in the NICE code-word system.

My political concern is, if President Trump was concerned with Hillary Clinton's server, is he not doing the same kind of thing?

In other words, he broke another promise; he did not drain the swamp, he's part of the swamp (?).

What am I missing?

I would add or edit your reasoning to include one or two propositions relating to Spirituality.

For example, early Christianity in the OT suggested God is Spirit (also see, Gnosticism & Gospel of Thomas), and in NT/Gospel of John. Take a look-see into those... .

While we await more definitive information on the Ukraine investigation, I am adding more factual information to the so-called record relative to abuse of power and personal interest:

18. Mueller Report Vol II Obstruction page 290 : "...when Sessions told the President that a Special Counsel had been appointed, the President slumped back in his chair and said, “Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I’m fucked.”504 .

19.Mueller Report vol. II, p. 157: "Obstruction of justice can be motivated by a desire to protect non-criminal personal interests, to protect against investigations where underlying criminal liability falls into a gray area, or to avoid personal embarrassment. The injury to the integrity of the justice system is the same regardless of whether a person committed an underlying wrong."

While we await more definitive news and information (President Trump now reportedly wants to meet the Ukraine whistleblower) I am adding more factual information to the so-called record:

16. Directly from Mueller report : "[T]he investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts..."

17. Directly from Mueller report: "The President's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests."

Feel free to parse and ponder

While we await more definitive news (which will happen this week; regarding 'unusual classified' file server transfers, Volker's -special Envoy to Ukraine who resigned Friday- testimony, reports of President Trump's comments about endorsing Moscow meddling 'because USA does it', and the like) I am adding two more into the so-called record:

14. Robert Mueller's testimony revealed his concern with foreign meddling in our elections, and I quote: "They're doing it as we sit here".

15. FBI Director Christopher Wray's testimony revealed, and I quote: "The Russians are absolutely intent on trying to interfere with our elections through the foreign influence... they haven't been deterred enough".

Feel free to parse and ponder.

Correct, in those cases you would have no reason to... .

We agree. But the distinctions here are not following the laws in either instance.

1. It's unlawful to submit fraudulent tax returns
2. It's unlawful to pay someone without taking all the withholding taxes out . (Not to mention in the construction industry and other service economies workers-regardless of race & ethnicity - are paid 'under the table' with zero withholdings/ paid with cash.)

True that Frank!!! ....huge, huge, huge, point. We could talk forever about that so-called dynamic, in politics at least....

In the interest of the OP, I won't belabor or detour much from the original thread topic, however, your point is well received!

Very good point. Unfortunately, many would view it as tantamount to getting a partial discount or a windfall from the taxes they owe; in that case not paying the full amount. In other words, they may be paying some, but not all/not paying the full amount that other's are paying.

In keeping with the theme of using logic, that's why I asked for the statistics, if available.