For the direct realist, the man directly perceives a tree — NOS4A2

When looking at a green tree, does the Direct Realist directly perceive the colour green or directly perceive the wavelength 500nm ?

But as I quoted above, those who try to prove it just end up making a whole bunch of assumptions they can't prove, like events only happen if you're looking at it which is nonsense, otherwise car crashes wouldnt happen. — Darkneos

Hopefully, the following argument uses no assumptions anyone would disagree with.

An argument for Solipsism

Everything I perceive in the world outside my mind happened in the past, whether the position of the moon or a leaf falling from a tree.

On the one hand, as I am always perceiving something that happened in the past, I am perceiving something that no longer exists, and to perceive something that no longer exists could be said to be perceiving an illusion.

On the other hand, I can imagine that what I am perceiving in the past continues to exist into the present. But what I am imagining is not the actual thing but a fictional account of it, and to imagine something that may or may not exist could be said to be perceiving a fiction.

Either way, everything I perceive existing in the world is either an illusion from the past or a fiction about the future.

Solipsism holds that only one's own mind is sure to exist. If my only knowledge about what exists in the world is either an illusion or a fiction, how can I be sure about any existence outside my mind, and isn't this what solipsism is saying.

I'm not certain and hence I'm a Pyrrhonist. — Agent Smith

Are you certain that you're a Pyrrhomist ?

I'm a Pyrrhonist — Agent Smith

That's a very un-Pyrrhonist thing to say, you sound very certain about it.

I thought I proved ... something. — Agent Smith

I take up your challenge. :smile:

The argument is:
1) Only things that we're 100% certain exists exist.
2) The only thing I'm 100% certain exists is me (re cogito).
3) Ergo, I alone exist.

There are two parts to statement 1). The first part is "Only things that we're 100% certain exists". Name this first part X. The second part is "X exist".

The problem is what exactly is "exist" referring to.

As regards the first part of statement 1), as the only things that I'm 100% certain exist are my thoughts, such as my thought about apples, therefore, exists must be referring to what exists in my mind.

As regards the second part of statement 1), X exist, what is exist referring to, what is in my mind or what is outside my mind, apples existing as thoughts in my mind or apples existing in the world independently of my mind.

If exist is referring to what is in my mind, then 1) is tautological, in that thoughts about apples that exist in my mind exist in my mind as thoughts about apples. If exist is referring to what is outside my mind, then 1) is saying that the things that I am thinking about, such as apples, exist outside my mind. But this is an unjustified statement.

Therefore, statement 1) is the problem, in that it is either tautological or unjustified.

You are performing a reducio ad absurdum, taking solipsism to it's extreme conclusion to refute it. Indirect realism can be reduced to the absurd by taking it to solipsism. However, solipsism is like indirect reality, it is not completely of the mind, but it is a function of the body. Pure solipsism is not a challenging philosophical exercise. — introbert

The title of the thread is "Can you prove solipsism true?"
Yes, an argument that refutes an absolutist metaphysical solipsism also leads to a refutation of sceptical epistemological solipsism. Indirect Realism is not a form of solipsism.

If solipsism is true, then everything I know, such as apples, mountains, other people, are parts that make up the whole me. If from these parts I become conscious of something that I didn't know before, such as hearing about a scientific law, seeing a Derain painting, being told about the opening times of a new restaurant, reading a McCarthy novel, but these parts are in fact part of myself as a whole, then I must have already known about them.

So how does something that I know about but am not conscious of become something that I am conscious of.

If solipsism is true, only I could have decided to be conscious of something that I was previously not conscious of. But if I was not previously conscious of something, how could I know to become conscious of it. The solipsist needs to explain how I can become conscious of something that I was not previously conscious of.

As solipsism can be proved false, it follows that solipsism can be proved to be not true.

Taking solipsism as knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is impossible

I want to prove the proposition P that solipsism is false.

Start by assuming that Solipsism is true.

Assertion one: I have knowledge of the novel Don Quixote, but as knowledge of anything outside my mind is impossible, only my own mind could have created Don Quixote, and therefore I am a great writer.

Assertion two: this post fails to convince me that this is the best argument to prove that solipsism is false, therefore I am not a great writer.

As assertions one and two are contradictory, by the law of noncontradiction, proposition P is in fact true, ie, solipsism is false.

I hope we'll dialogue again. — ucarr

:grin:

five big questions — ucarr

Invaluable to me in sorting out my own ideas.

Your answer says elementary particles and forces -- and their emergent property, consciousness -- have their ground within a neutral monism that is neither mental or physical. — ucarr

I'm wavering between panprotopsychism and neutral monism.

Donovan Wishon in his article Panpsychism, Panprotopsychism, and Neutral Monism
describes panpsychism, panprotopsychism and neutral monism as: "The first is panpsychism, which is the doctrine that mind is a fundamental and pervasive feature of the universe. The second is panprotopsychism, which is the doctrine that fundamental physical entities, while not themselves minded, have special features that give rise to conscious minds when they are arranged into a sufficiently complex physical system. The third is neutral monism, which is the doctrine that both minds and physical entities are constructed from more basic elements of reality that are in themselves neither mental nor physical."

But I also believe in the Mysterianism of Colin McGinn, in that the hard problem of consciousness cannot be resolved by humans.

Your answer says humans relate to consciousness as an act of faith in the existence of something unknowable. — ucarr

For me it is more than faith, where faith is a strong belief, in that I am absolutely certain that I am conscious. I know without doubt that I am conscious. From then on it gets more complicated.

There are different levels of knowledge, in that I can know I'm conscious without knowing why. I can know the form of an object without knowing its content, as Pandora knew the form of the large storage jar without knowing the curses it held within it

I am sure that at the heart of the hard problem of consciousness is the Binding Problem, or in Kant's terms, the unity of perception. Consciousness is unknowable because there is nothing else in our experience that enables us to understand how a disparate set of parts can be perceived as a unified whole. We have no key to explaining the gestalt property of consciousness, whereby a perceived object or event is dynamically bound together from its properties into a unified mental representation. For example, our representation of a tree can be expressed in neural activity that is widely distributed through the cortex. Objects such as trees can only be represented in the brain by many neurons spatially separate, yet we are conscious of the tree as a unified whole at one instant of time. The mystery reduces to that of how can one be conscious of a unified whole at one instant in time that is made up of parts that are spatially separate.

I don't know what the answer is, but I feel the answer must avoid the pseudoscience of Quantum Mysticism, those metaphysical beliefs that seek to relate quantum mechanics to all and sundry problems, whether consciousness, intelligence, the spiritual or the mystical.

Your answer hedges ambiguity somewhere between determinism and chaos. Your quote from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy suggests the quest for this answer will mire itself inside an infinite regress. — ucarr

I believe in the principle of Laplace's Demon, such that if a demon knows the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe, their past and future values can be calculated from the laws of classical mechanics.

However in principle, such a calculation would be to all intents and purposes impossible because of what we know from chaos theory, whereby even small changes to a complex system can give rise to extreme consequences. Given the start position of a complex system, if we wanted to predict a distant future, the calculation would probably have to account for differences in position of the order of the planck length.

As regards free will, there are some things about which I have no choice, such as eating, though I do have the choice as to what I eat, pasta or pizza. On the one hand, intellectually I believe that the world is determined, yet on the other hand, viscerally, I believe I have free will.

How to resolve such a contradiction. Sean Carroll proposes Poetic Naturalism. As we understand through metaphor, Big Bang Theory, Hubble's Law of Cosmic Expansion, Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion, Universal Law of Gravitation, etc, Carroll's approach is effectively the use of different metaphors for different domains of knowledge. When talking about the physical world we use the metaphor determinism, when talking about the world of the mind we use the metaphor free will. In this sense, talk about a deterministic world in which we have free will is not contradictory, as such terms are metaphors. In fact, it could be argued that all our understanding is metaphorical, in that all language is fundamentally metaphorical.

your answer says emergence of life from fundamental physical entities is mysterious. — ucarr

Yes, Colin McGinn's Mysterianism. As a cat, dog or donkey could never understand the working of the European Commission, humans can never understand the nature of consciousness (in fact, probably an easier problem that understanding the workings of the European Commission). As Sean Carroll suggests, perhaps understanding requires a change in our frame of reference. The fundamental problem is that in order for humans to understand consciousness, consciousness need to understand itself. Not a new idea, as "know thyself" is one of the three Delphic maxims inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi.

Is this type of thinking non-binary WRT the physical/mental binary? — ucarr

In the world are elementary particles, such as electrons, and elementary forces, such as the gravitational force. My consciousness doesn't exist independently of these elementary particles and forces that make up my body, but has emerged from them, in that if my body moves from the kitchen to the living room, my consciousness doesn't stay in the kitchen.

So, my consciousness is inextricably linked with the elementary particles and forces that make up my body. Either consciousness is external to these elementary particles and forces and is somehow attached to them, as a label is attached to a bunch of fruit, or consciousness is part inherent within these elementary particles and forces, as an apple is part of the tree from which it grows.

If consciousness is an inherent part of these elementary particles and forces, then this suggests neutral monism, in that that both minds and physical entities are constructed from more basic elements of reality that are in themselves neither mental nor physical. If consciousness is external to these elementary particles and forces, either consciousness has existed at least as long as these elementary particles and forces or consciousness came into existence at a later date.

If consciousness has existed at least as long as these elementary particles and forces, yet is external but still attached, this again suggests neutral monism.

If consciousness came into existence at a later date, we have the problem of explaining how something can come from nothing. As I personally don't believe in spontaneous self-causation, I don't accept this as a possibility.

That leaves, for me, neutral monism as the best explanation.

Is this a way of saying an analysis of the world, as it becomes viable, merges into the world. If so, is one of the implications that analysis of world is finally just self-referential world? From this does it follow that the self-referential part of world is exampled by humans? — ucarr

Even though the world may be deterministic, the Butterfly effect shows that the world is too complex to be able to predict in the long term, even by Laplace's Demon, in that a minute localized change in a complex system can have large effects elsewhere.

Perhaps because of the chaotic complexity of the world, only a computer the size of the world could undertake any such calculation. As Douglas Adams wrote in The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "In their travels, Arthur comes to learn that the Earth was actually a giant supercomputer, created by another supercomputer, Deep Thought. Deep Thought had been built by its creators to give the answer to the "Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything", which, after aeons of calculations, was given simply as "42". Deep Thought was then instructed to design the Earth supercomputer to determine what the Question actually is".

I don't know what you mean by self-referential.

Is it correct to say these neutral basic elements are in reality to some degree alive and that, therefore, it's meaningful to talk about degrees of aliveness? — ucarr

That seems to be the position of panpsychism, whereby the mind is a fundamental and pervasive feature of the universe.

However, panprotopsychism seems more sensible, whereby fundamental physical entities, while not themselves minded, have special features that give rise to conscious minds when they are arranged into a sufficiently complex physical system. The mind emerges from these fundamental physical entities under certain, and mysterious, circumstances. It would be strange to think that the food we eat, that eventually makes up the physical structure of our our bodies had to be alive in order for us to be alive.

Consciousness therefore has some degree of grounding in chromosomes and genes? — ucarr

Yes, in that as consciousness is grounded in chromosomes and genes , these are in turn grounded in elementary particles and forces.

The mind_world interface is something like the intricate tessellations of an M C Escher drawing? A tile -- in this case reality -- covers a surface -- earth -- with no overlaps or gaps? — ucarr

Perhaps the mind is like a wave on an ocean, where the ocean is the world.

I see your take on the problem of consciousness is that for humans the correct position is necessarily agnostic in the strict sense of knowledge-not. — ucarr

More a "theist" as regards a belief in consciousness, in that I know that consciousness exists, but I don't know what it is.

Talking about the secular approach to life, I found Sean Carroll's The Big Picture: From the Big Bang to the Meaning of Life informative.

On the one hand, as astrobiologist Michael Russell says, the purpose of life is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide in order to increase the entropy in the universe. But on the other hand, Sean Carroll introduces the concept of Poetic Naturalism, whereby we can accept both the microscopic world of elementary particles, forces and space-time and the macroscopic world of apples, causation, purpose and the arrow of time as long as we change our frame of reference. By changing our frame of reference we can accept both a deterministic world and a world of purpose, reason and what is ethically right or wrong.

Are you telling me mind is a discrete unit within a system we call world? — ucarr

Not really, more that the mind is an intimate part of the world, along the lines of the article Panpsychism, Panprotopsychism, and Neutral Monism by Donovan Wishon. I'm somewhere between panprotopsychism and neutral monism.

if appearance of randomness can be conquered, will the debate be resolved in favor of pre-determination? — ucarr

Yes, in principle, the future could be calculated, though the computer needed to analyse the world would probably need to be as big as the world, taking chaotic systems into account.

Some will say a concomitant of your above quote is an embrace of the notion life can arise from non-life. — ucarr

Yes. This goes back to neutral monism, which is the doctrine that both minds and physical entities are constructed from more basic elements of reality that are in themselves neither mental nor physical.

In the above statements I perceive you to be telling me innate knowledge is a kind of genetic predisposition for knowing certain things. — ucarr

Yes, exactly.

Once the person has the empirical experience of seeing the colour red and she remembers it, and, on top of this remembrance, develops additional impressions and, on top of these, develops additional evaluative and judgmental thoughts, her mind is now operating independent of external world? — ucarr

A car when driving on a road is external to the road but is still dependent upon the road.

The Hard Problem (of neuro-science). — ucarr

As regards the hard problem of consciousness, as an animal such as a cat, dog or donkey could never understand the European Commission, no matter how much it was explained to them, I don't think humans could ever understand what consciousness is. Even if a super-intelligent and super-knowledgeable alien visited Earth, and tried to explain the nature of consciousness to us, we would still be incapable of understanding. We may be able to learn more about the role of neurons in the brain, but what consciousness is would still elude us.

It seems to me:

Do human mind and physical world create together a Venn Diagram of an overlap, which is to say, a portion of each identity blended into a shared identity? — ucarr

More or less. Something that has taken 3.7 billion years since life first evolved on Earth, in that life must be the product of its environment. If the environment had been different, life would most likely have turned out differently. As regards the Venn Diagram, the mind doesn't overlap with the world, the mind is part of the world.

Is it your belief that rainfall in the rainforest that grows the plants results from random forces such as air currents, barometric pressure, temperature and the seasons? — ucarr

More or less, in that these forces are mindless, although not random. I don't believe in spontaneous self-causation, I believe that every effect has a cause and the world is deterministic. Randomness is a human concept for events that are too complex for us to analyse what is happening, a system may be chaotic but it is still deterministic, whereby effects are preceded by causes.

Is it your belief the world caused you? — ucarr

Yes. The age of the Earth is about 4.5 billion years and it is believed that 4.3 billion years ago the Earth may have developed conditions suitable to support life. The oldest known fossils are about 3.7 billion years old, and homo sapiens, the first modern humans, evolved between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago.

The process whereby humans have evolved has been underway for at least 3.7 billion years, a process physically determined by the world in which such evolution has taken place.

Your rational mind, however, operates independently of mindless external world, creating knowledge of sense impressions a priori. — ucarr

Not really. Innatism is the doctrine that the mind is born with ideas, knowledge and beliefs. The opposing doctrine, Empiricism, is that the mind is a blank slate at birth and all knowledge is gained from experience and the senses.

There are costs and benefits from both innate and learned knowledge. In a changing environment, an animal must constantly be gaining new information in order to survive. However, in a stable environment this same individual need only to gather the information it needs once and rely on it for the duration of its life.

Descartes makes the analogy that innate knowledge may be compared to an innate disease, in that an innate disease signifies that a person may be at risk from contracting such a disease later in life. Similarly, innate knowledge does not mean that the person has been born with such knowledge, just that such knowledge wasn't expressed. Innate knowledge requires experiences to be triggered or it may never be expressed. For example, a person is not born with the knowledge of the colour red, but are born with the innate ability to perceive the colour red when experiencing it for the first time

A human's innate knowledge, in other words a priori knowledge, is the end product of over 3.7 billion years of evolution, ie, Enactivism

The rational mind has grown out of the world, and is therefore not something separate to it.

If your answer to the above is "yes," do you also believe the link goes in one direction only (mind independent world to RussellA's mind) — ucarr

No. As a mind-independent world causes changes to my mind, my mind causes changes to a mind-independent world, a case of Enactivism.

In Enactivism, cognition arises through a dynamic interaction between an acting organism and its environment. The environment of an organism is brought about, or enacted, by the active exercise of the organism itself. Living beings and their environments stand in relation to each other through mutual specification or co-determination.

do you believe that mind independent world conveys to your mind its contents without any intentions whatsoever? — ucarr

Yes. If a raindrop hits a leaf and moves the leaf, there is no intention on the raindrop's part to move the leaf.

Is your belief Justified True Belief (JTB)? — ucarr

No. If I have the sensation of the colour red, there is no doubt in my mind that I have sensed the colour red. I don't need to justify to myself that I have experienced the colour red, as I know it beyond doubt. It is knowledge, not because it is a justified true belief, but because I know that it is a true belief.

Other things I know beyond doubt is that for every effect there is a cause, in that self-causation is not possible, and that there is a world outside my mind, in that I am not a Solipsist.

I can intellectually question what I know to be a true belief, and wonder whether they are in fact true beliefs. But regardless of any intellectual questioning, there is still no doubt in my mind that they are true beliefs. For example, I may experience the colour red in my mind, and intellectually question whether in fact I really am experiencing the colour red, but no amount of intellectual musing will alter my visceral knowledge that I know beyond doubt that I am experiencing the colour red. I may in fact be wrong in my belief that I am experiencing the colour red, but being wrong doesn't change the fact of my knowing beyond doubt.

In Kant's terms, my knowing certain things beyond doubt is innate and a priori within the structure of my brain, a product of millions of years of evolution, where the brain has evolved in synergy with the world external to it.

Therefore, I know beyond doubt my sensations, I know beyond doubt these sensations as effects have had a cause, and I know beyond doubt some of these causes are external to my mind.

But as these causes are external to my mind, I may have beliefs as to what they are, but I can never know beyond doubt what they are. I can justify my beliefs as regards anything external to my mind, but I can never know whether these beliefs are true or not.

Pragmatically, it may not matter whether these beliefs about a world external to my mind are true or not, as long as my beliefs are sufficient to enable me to continue to more or less keep on living as an individual, and as part of a species that is able to survive as a cohesive group through time. A species does not need to know what is true in an external world in order to survive within it.

In answer to your question, by belief is not JTB. In my mind I have true beliefs that don't need justifying, and external to my mind I may justify my beliefs, but can never know whether they are true or not.

You have concluded our world is mind-independent? — ucarr

My world consists of what I know, and everything I know exists in my mind. What I know are feelings such as pleasure and pain, concepts such as governments and chairs, sensations such as the colour red and a grating noise and beliefs such as the principle of cause and effect and that my sensations have been caused by something external to me.

I know that there is a world that exists in my mind, and I believe that there is a world that exists independently of my mind.

I also believe that within this world that exists independently of my mind, there are other minds, such as John's and Mary's.

My belief is that this something external to our minds is not another mind but is mind-independent.

My conclusion is that our world, the world of me, John and Mary, consists of minds and between these minds is something that is mind-independent.

Infinity is solved by solving knowledge. How do you know what infinity is? Is infinity an actual thing, or is it a conceptual framework of an algorithm? — Philosophim

We cannot know the whole if we only know a part. We may know a rock, but as there is no information within the rock that it is part of a mountain, we cannot know the mountain by knowing the rock.

If infinity was an actual thing, such as infinite time, we may know a finite time, but as there is no information within a finite time that it is part of an infinite time, we cannot know an infinite time by knowing a finite time.

The only other way to know an infinite time is by experiencing an infinite time, which would take far too long.

Similarly with space, numbers, etc.

Therefore, infinity may be an actual thing, but we can never know. All we can ever know is the concept of infinity.

As with most scientific concepts about which we have knowledge, including the Big Bang Theory, Hubble's Law of Cosmic Expansion, Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion, Universal Law of Gravitation, Newton's Laws of Motion, Laws of Thermodynamics, Archimedes' Buoyancy Principle, Evolution and Natural Selection, Theory of General Relativity and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, such knowledge of infinity can only be metaphorical.

It would seem the best that could be hoped for would be determining the neural correlates of various states of consciousness as reported by subjects , but that doesn't answer the so-called hard problem. — Janus

:up:

That's a more accurate statement than mine! — Agent Smith

Perhaps, but as Raymond Chandler said “A writer who is afraid to overreach himself is as useless as a general who is afraid to be wrong.”

Kurt Gödel, genius made him, genius killed him. — Agent Smith

Gödel died from a fear of poisoning, and malnutrition killed him. Most geniuses are killed by old age.

There is no final puzzle we could solve to get a handle on reality. — Agent Smith

Sounds like Gödel's incompleteness theorem.

For example I think until we understand consciousness we cannot possibly know the true nature of reality or whether the contents of consciousness are veridical.........I have had solipsistic intuitions/feelings in the past. I think we need to defeat solipsism or face a kind of personal isolation where we are able to be skeptical about everything but cogito ergo sum/ourselves. — Andrew4Handel

Solipsism, consciousness and the problem of cause and effect

I am conscious of the colour red, taste something sweet, feel something smooth, hear a slight crackle and smell something fruity. I know these sensations, and believe they have been caused by the apple in front of me.

Solipsism is the position that the consciousness of these sensations certainly exist in the mind and have been caused by the mind itself rather than anything external to the mind. My belief that solipsism is not true is the same reason that I believe consciousness can never be understood, and relates to the problem of cause and effect.

If solipsism were true, then I created everything that I know, such that I created the novels War and Peace, Don Quixote, all the compositions of Bach and Mozart, all the paintings by Derain and Van Gogh, all the scientific discoveries of Feynman and Einstein, etc. As I have difficulty winning at chess, I find it hard to believe that I have such godlike powers.

According to Newton's first law of motion, a stationary object cannot move unless it is acted upon an external force. The Principle of Sufficient Reason, a term coined by Leibniz, and central to Spinoza's philosophical system states that every fact has a reason for obtaining and there are no "brute facts". If something existed for no reason, then the fact it existed would be inexplicable. Aristotle claimed that a person when perceiving anything must also perceive their own existence, suggesting that consciousness entails self-consciousness. However, Schopenhauer wrote, in agreement with Kant, “that the subject should become an object for itself is the most monstrous contradiction ever thought of”. As an object cannot spontaneously cause itself to move in the absence of an external force, a conscious thought cannot spontaneous cause itself to come into existence in the absence of an external cause. Colin McGinn has said that consciousness is "a mystery that human intelligence will never unravel", in that no matter how much scientists study the brain, the mind is fundamentally incapable of comprehending itself, a position called New Mysterianism.

If the concept of cause and effect is fundamental to our beliefs, it follows that not only that Solipsism is not true but we will never be able to understand consciousness.

So if I were to say " An "insoluble puzzle" is not really a puzzle" what could I mean to say beyond "Calling an "insoluble puzzle" a puzzle is not the most useful way to talk about it"? — Janus

Perhaps the bigger puzzle is how do we decide whether a puzzle, such as the puzzle of consciousness, is an impossible puzzle or not.

Does an insoluble puzzle count as a puzzle at all? — Janus

It must do, in the same way that there are impossible problems and impossible objects.

Wikipedia even has a list of impossible puzzles.

War between peoples has always been an impossible problem. If an impossible problem didn't count as a problem, then it would follow that war between peoples is not a problem.

I could say that there is an object on the table in front of me that is round and square. If this impossible round square object didn't count as an object, then how could I refer to the object that is on the table in front of me.

In language, there are impossible puzzles, impossible problems and impossible objects.

Why are we able to understand reality at all? — Andrew4Handel

The world appears logically consistent, which allows us, for example, to use Newton's second law F = m * a to predict future events. But does being able to predict what will happen mean that we understand why it will happen. We may know F = m * a, but do we understand why F = m * a ?

To me existence is a puzzle. — Andrew4Handel

As with Windows Free Cell game 11,982, some puzzles are insoluble. Why should we think that all puzzles are soluble.

The alien, the human and the donkey

Life first started to evolve on Earth about 3.5 billion years ago, and there is no reason to think it has stopped.

We can show a donkey, which has a certain level of intelligence, the novel The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway and not expect the donkey to understand the plot-line. No amount of patient explanation or education will enable the donkey our level of understanding.

An alien, having several million years of further evolution, will have their own knowledge and understanding. The alien can show the human some of their knowledge and understanding and quite reasonably not expect the human to understand. No amount of patient explanation or education by the alien will enable the human their level of understanding. As we have knowledge and understanding the donkey can never have, the alien will have knowledge and understanding we can never have.

It is not so much our fallibilism, in that our knowledge might turn out to be false, but rather, as has been said before, the unknown unknown, facts in the world that we are incapable of ever understanding even if staring us in the face.

Our capacity to understand is itself something of a mystery. — Andrew4Handel

If understanding is knowledge about a subject, our understanding and knowledge can only go so far, until reaching an inevitable barrier beyond which they cannot pass. There is no topic that does not hit such a barrier beyond which is unknown and not understood.

We can infer what will happen through observing constant conjunctions, that because the sun rose in the east for the previous 100 days there is the inference that tomorrow it will also rise in the east, but this does not mean that we understand why the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

We may understand and know the rules of algebra, such that 5 * 3 + 2 = 17 whilst 5 * (3 + 2) = 25, or we may understand the rules of language, in order to know when someone says "that's OK", whether they are praising me, criticizing me, expressing exasperation with me, encouraging me, or even saying you’re disgusted with me. Yet such understanding and knowledge is founded on rules that we must accept and not question if wanting to keep on playing the social game.

Beyond the knowable is the unknown, which can only understand in terms of metaphor, figure of speech, myth, parable, fable, etc.

All our understanding and knowledge is thereby founded on metaphor, figure of speech, myth, parable, fable, etc.

What does it mean to solve the puzzle of consciousness. In what sense can we ever understand consciousness. In what sense do we understand anything. How do we understand what it is to understand. What do we think we understand and how do we understand them.

For example, as regards science it is said we understand the following: Big Bang Theory, Hubble's Law of Cosmic Expansion, Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion, Universal Law of Gravitation, Newton's Laws of Motion, Laws of Thermodynamics, Archimedes' Buoyancy Principle, Evolution and Natural Selection, Theory of General Relativity and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Yet such understanding is metaphorical, in that we understand the start of the universe as a "big bang", something we have experience of in our daily lives, whether fireworks, an explosion or a door slamming.

As regards society, it is said we have a good understand of the following: government, religion, education, economy, language, politics, culture, ethnicity, gender and recreation. Yet such understanding is of concepts that only exist in the mind, in that governments don't exist in a mind-independent world.

Our understanding is therefore based on either metaphor which only exist in the mind or concepts which again only exist in the mind. Even if we did better understand consciousness, such understanding can only ever be a better understanding of the concepts existing in our mind and can never be an understanding of what in a mind-independent world caused these concepts in the mind.

So, to better understand the nature of consciousness, the best we can do is look for better metaphors to explain it. The Truth only exists in language.

If these puzzles are ultimately insoluble by humans, then why not also add "World Peace" to the list.

What are the biggest puzzles in philosophy to you? — Andrew4Handel

Another puzzle, perhaps overriding all of these, is why it is believed that humans will ever be capable of solving these puzzles.

What reason is given that humans will ever be able to solve these puzzles.

So, why nit-pick what he may have really meant or thought — Vera Mont

Because this thread was initiated asking the question whether Descartes was an "evil genius", which can only be about what he meant or thought.

I see the physic this relation of the modern rationalist being antagonized by the irrational, and the symbolic nature of a human bein violent towards a dog with the added layer of scientism, as an important message. — introbert

Are you saying that, even though Descartes didn't, in fact, torture dogs, the myth that Descartes did torture dogs has a value as a symbol that sends an important message to society, and, as a myth, is something that only the rationalist would object to?

From the magazine "Philosophy Now", within the article by Samuel Kaldas titled Descartes versus Cudworth On The Moral Worth of Animals is written: "Descartes undeniably did set up a strict dichotomy between the immaterial, experiencing, thinking life of man, and the material, mechanical, mindless existence of animals. That dichotomy certainly doesn’t encourage any sense of kinship between man and beast."

Is it true that Descartes set up a strict dichotomy between the thinking life of humans and the mindless existence of animals?

Not according to John Cottingham is his article "A Brute to the Brutes?": Descartes' Treatment of Animals". He writes "To be able to believe that a dog with a broken paw is not really in pain when it whimpers is a quite extraordinary achievement even for a philosopher." and "Now from none of all this does it follow that when Descartes calls some- thing a 'mechanism' or 'machine' he is automatically ruling out the presence of sensations or feelings". He concludes "At the end of the day, Descartes may not have been completely consistent, but at least he was not altogether beastly to the beasts"

Is it true that even if there was a strict dichotomy between animals and humans, as the author writes, there could be no sense of kinship?

From John Cottingham's measured argument, we can conclude that not only for Descartes but philosophers today, feeling and sensation is not part of any dichotomy between animals and humans.

Yet today many believe that only humans have the ability to reason, whilst animals are driven solely by instinct, though not an opinion I share. Even if this dichotomy between instinct and reason was true, it clearly doesn't in practice preclude any sense of kinship between humans and animals, in that even amongst those who believe in this dichotomy, there is still a sense of kinship with animals either as pets or in the natural world.

IE, the paragraph in "Philosophy Now" is according to John Cottingham's argument not only mistaken in its critique of Descartes but also in its conclusion that a sense of kinship cannot override any dichotomy (whether it exists or not) between animals and humans.

Where is that from? I know Peter Harrison's work, I'd be interested in following up on that. — Wayfarer

The Philosophical Quarterly Vol 42 No 167 April 1992 "Descartes on Animals" Peter Harrison - www.jstor.org/stable/2220217

Peter Harrison remarks that John Cottingham has suggested that the passages in the Cartesian corpus don't support the common view that Descartes denied feeling to animals. As also mentioned by the SEP on Rene Descartes, which refers to Harrison and Hatfield. See also Chapter X "Descartes' Treatment of Animals" of John Cottingham's book Descartes (which I cannot find online).

Criticism is not cancellation! In fact the inability to make this distinction is one of the primary drivers of 'cancel culture'. — Wayfarer

Totally agree.

Quite what Descartes means by 'thought', why humans have it and animals don't — Wayfarer

I don't believe that there was a sharp cut-off between animals and humans as regards intelligence, feelings, reasoning, propositional attitudes, etc, but there was a gradual evolutionary process over millions of years. After all, humans are animals. For me, a dog has the same "quality" of reasoning as a human, even if the "quantity" is less. There are many examples where the behaviour of certain animals seems to clearly show that they are reasoning through a problem, and thereby have propositional l attitudes.

However, some disagree. For example, Donald Davidson denies that animals have propositional attitudes, though doesn't deny that they have no mental life at all.

The problem with treating animals as being of a different kind to ourselves is the consequence that we may treat animals inhumanely.

Where do they come from? — Vera Mont

The sentence from the Britannica: "He argued that, because animals have no souls, they do not think or feel; thus, vivisection, which Descartes practised, is permitted" gives a different impression to the OP whereby "They burned, scalded, and mutilated animals in every conceivable manner".

As vivisection is still legal, can we attack Descartes for a practice that is still carried out today.

Peter Harrison writes "The view that Descartes was a brute to the brutes is, above all else, historically myopic" and "Descartes is commonly portrayed as one whose view of animals is morally repugnant. Such moral indignation is misplaced".

Descartes position regarding the soul is more complex that suggested by The Britannica. The Britannica writes "He argued that, because animals have no souls, they do not think or feel", however Peter Harrison writes " Descartes, we must understand, did not deny the existence of animal souls per se: animals might well have "corporeal souls". It was this view that animals had spiritual souls, of "substantial material forms" that Descartes was at pains to refute".

Before cancelling Descartes and tearing down his statues, I think first the truth should be discovered regarding his position on animal testing.

Then we can judge him having 400 years of hindsight.

How about by the constant standards of cultures that understood the evident kinship of humans and other animals long before gentlemen in stiff collars cerebrated that radical idea? — Vera Mont

It seems a pity that the father of modern philosophy is being discredited for something he probably never did.

In the article Descartes on Animals in the Philosophical Quarterly, Peter Harrison argues that the view that Descartes denied feelings to animals is mistaken.

Apparently Descartes had a pet dog called Monsieur Grat who used to accompany him on his walks, on whom he lavished much affection and probably loved quite dearly.

As Descartes's philosophical starting point was to consider everything a matter of doubt, we should perhaps start by doubting unsubstantiated stories about the man himself.

Well talking to orchids sure is preferable to torturing dogs, I’ll give you that. — Wayfarer

True, in that talking to dogs is preferable to torturing plants.

Descartes reasoned that as animals didn't speak or philosophise, they lacked souls and minds and so were mechanical objects that didn't feel pain. With 400 years of hindsight and accumulated knowledge, today's prevailing view is that animals are not mechanical objects and do feel pain.

Today, the prevailing view is that as plants don't speak or philosophise they lack souls and minds, and so are biologically mechanical objects that don't feel pain. In 400 years from now, in a possible future world, the prevailing view may be that plants are more than biologically mechanical objects and do feel pain.

Is it right that today vegans in eating plants should be judged evil, in the event that in a possible future world, and after 400 years of accumulated knowledge, the prevailing view may be that plants are more than biologically mechanical objects and do feel pain.

Perhaps we could all become Jains — Wayfarer

Or, as an article in The Guardian newspaper proposes, perhaps we should talk to our plants rather than, as the vegans propose, eat them.

"As we edge into 2021, my orchid is still thriving. And because my fingers are not yet green, I can only attribute this to our daily interactions: the adoring looks, the greetings and check-ins, and the attention (both intentional and incidental). She listens in on my telephone conversations and is often my only audience for pre-dinner renditions of I Will Survive. She doesn’t join in, my orchid, but I think she’s feeling the love. I know I am."

If it is right to judge the morality of a philosopher writing 400 years ago by today's standards, then we should expect the morality of philosophers writing today to be judged by the standards of societies 400 years from now.

For example, in a possible future world, it may well be accepted that plants feel pain and should not be picked and eaten whilst still alive. Not an unlikely scenario, as many people discuss this situation even today. That well known left-wing and progressive newspaper The Guardian included the following in its notes and queries section: "A number of studies have shown that plants feel pain, and vegetables are picked and often eaten while still alive. Animal rights activists are often in the news, but has anyone ever protested for vegetable rights?"

This raises the question whether veganism should be promoted today if in a possible future world the eating of plants is considered by society to be morally reprehensible.

Science is about knowing what is true in the world. Philosophy is about doubting what is known to be true in the world.