A -> B. But that's not imply. that's "Necessarily leads to."
— Philosophim

Wrong. Material implication does not require necessity. — TonesInDeepFreeze

You misunderstand. A -> B is not implication as we may use it in English. In other words, "It being cloudy implies that it will rain soon," is not the same as "It being cloudy necessarily means that it will rain soon. Yes, in logic, its called an "implication", but in standard English its equivalent to "Necessitates". That notation is If A, then B. Or if A, necessarily B. Its not, If A, maybe B.

Thus, if one plugs the word 'necessitate' in, its clear that A necessitates B and A necessitates not B contradict each other.

What I see some people doing is declaring A -> A or B, which is perfectly fine. But that is not the same as stating A -> B, (which means it will only lead to B) then in the next statement A -> !B (A will lead only to not B).

I’m not afraid of death, and to give me advice on living and dying is quite condescending as if I don’t understand what’s important. I guess I need advice since I don’t think about such things (ha-ha). You probably mean well, so I don’t take offense. — Sam26

I did not mean it to be condescending. I am a person who has learned over time that you can never assume anything about other people. So I talk to them as if they don't know things, not as a means to insult, but to provide opportunity in case they don't. I am glad you understand how valuable life is. :)

I find it curious that some people think that people who believe there is an afterlife are somehow afraid that their existence is coming to an end, so we grasp at straws (beliefs) to comfort ourselves. — Sam26

Some people think this. Not all. When having a conversation with a stranger, to me its about trying to find the most value out of a conversation. If I know you know the value of life, then I will never mention it again. But if you don't and its not addressed? What good is it to inform a person that there is no afterlife if they don't value the life they live today?

We do not have tone or body language while communicating. All we have is text, and of course our interpretation of that other person's intentions. I have tried to be clear that while I do not believe the argument for consciousness existing post death has any credence, I do not have any issue with YOU.
You've taken the time to present an argument fairly, you've been polite for a conversation that conflicts with our world view, and you've replied to many of my points. These forums should never be an insult or ego fest, but a place where we can talk seriously and truthfully with one another.

The psychological reasons/causes for what we all believe are very strong, often overriding what’s logical. — Sam26

Correct. And I am not an exception to this rule. I too was raised Christian, but through questioning and having honest conversations with many other people, I found that it wasn't viable.

The only thing that matters to me is the evidence or good reasons that support my argument, not some fear of ceasing to exist, fear of hell, or some other fear. — Sam26

Finally, your epistemology relies too heavily on the power of science to explain, as if epistemological considerations of science are paramount to knowing something is the case. However, much of what we know is through everyday testimonial evidence, which is why I think this argument is so powerful. — Sam26

I have formal training in philosophy, I have written many of my own approaches to philosophical problems, and have continued to dabble as a hobby all my life. I was both a math teacher, and now program for a living. My point is that I have a long period of training in life in logical thinking.

Now, I also am aware that it doesn't mean a thing. Its the arguments that stand. You strike me as a thinker in earlier stages of development. This is not an insult to your intelligence. Good thinking for most people takes training. It takes years of work. You can never be satisfied, and I seek to improve in little ways every day.

One problem I see is that you are still stuck on how to correctly use inductive thinking. If you re-read, that's really my focus. Inductive thinking is by definition, not necessarily true. So even the best of inductive arguments is not considered a sound argument, but a supposition, or conjecture at best.
Considering there are several competing conjectures that your inductive argument must address and overcome, its not in a good position.

Second, you're assuming the argument that I'm trying to make instead of really understanding it. I want to re-emphasize again, that I am not questioning whether people experience NDE's or OBEs. If you re-read, you seem to want to re-argue their realness when I've already long accepted that they're real. My point is that a personal experience does not mean strong or conclusive evidence about objective reality.

That's pretty obvious if you take any other scenario besides NDEs. I've dreamt that I've flown before, and its been found in at least one study that 1/3rd of recipients have dreamed of flying. https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/11/dream-flying-says-something-about-how-you-think.html

Now, does that mean that when we dream our consciousness actually travels to another realm where we can fly? No. Its just a common brain activity while we sleep. Personal experience is not evidence of objective reality. Personal experience is out interpretation of objective reality. And just because we interpret reality a certain way, it does not mean it is a certain way. Ever seen an optical illusion? That's our interpretation ability going overdrive, the illusion is not actually happening in reality apart from ourselves.

My emphasis is not on 'science', but deduction and objective testing. Science is a good go to, because articles are peer reviewed. Meaning they must hold to high standards from the rest of the community, and are always open to having their research examined and questioned. We want to believe in the power of induction and personal experience, and while it can be useful in many instances, it also has many known flaws.

So your argument has several problems it needs to solve. How do you reconcile the fact that we can duplicate NDEs in neurology and oxygen deprivation scenarios? How do you reconcile the fact that no OBE has ever been shown to see something that was placed outside of their bodies field of view during the time in which the NDE should be occurring? There are real problems that if not solved, cut the inductive argument that consciousness survives our death into pieces.

So, feel free to try to answer those. If you can, awesome. But not answering those and insisting your inductive argument trumps all others logically isn't true. The current and most logical conclusion we can make with the information we know of today is that consciousness is a function of the brain, and when the brain dies, your consciousness dies as well. Feel free to keep trying to prove it wrong, but you have a lot of work to still do.

↪Philosophim What does "simply a language issue" mean? — Moliere

Often times in logic or arguments, the solution is clear. What often happens is we use language with poor definitions. Thus people make assumptions or conclusions that the user of the unclear language didn't intend, or the user themself is doing the same.

Notice how he used the word 'imply' and people immediately thought, Oh A -> B. But that's not imply. that's "Necessarily leads to." And its obvious that if A -> B, that A -> !B is a contradiction if you use the correct definition. "Imply" is vague enough that some thought 'necessarily', while others thought 'maybe'. And because you can get halfway there with the word, some might even thing A ->B means only sometimes.

I think, at least in philosophy though maybe there's some other argument this stems from that I'm not aware of, that we should separate out implication from modality -- so when you introduce "possibility" and "necessity" those are entirely different operators from implication. — Moliere

This is simply a language issue. What does 'impliciation' mean? That's why I went over all the different possibilities. In the end implication must mean necessary or not necessary, in which case the answer will be different.

↪Philosophim What do you think of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbershop_paradox — flannel jesus

It was a bit of headox with a sentence like this:

"If Carr is out, then we know this: "If Allen is out, then Brown is in", because there has to be someone in "to mind the shop." Ugh.

So cleaning this up we get this:

They explain that there are three barbers who live and work in the shop—Allen, Brown, and Carr—and some or all of them may be in. We are given two pieces of information from which to draw conclusions. Firstly, the shop is definitely open, so at least one of the barbers must be in. Secondly, Allen is said to be very nervous, so that he never leaves the shop unless Brown goes with him.

So, we have A, B, and C

One must always be in.

If A is out, B is out
Therefore C is in

If B is out, A can be in, as B can leave the shop.
If A is out, B is also out, so C is in

So our combos are as follows:

1. C !A !B
2. !C A B
3. C A !B
4. !C A !B
5. C A B

"Suppose that Carr is out. We will show that this assumption produces a contradiction. If Carr is out, then we know this: "If Allen is out, then Brown is in", because there has to be someone in "to mind the shop." But, we also know that whenever Allen goes out he takes Brown with him, so as a general rule, "If Allen is out, then Brown is out". The two statements we have arrived at are incompatible, because if Allen is out then Brown cannot be both In (according to one) and Out (according to the other). There is a contradiction. So we must abandon our hypothesis that Carr is Out, and conclude that Carr must be in."

This doesn't make any sense. Clearly B can be out and A be in. Clearly C could be out and A and B, or A be in. I don't get it.

We have to be careful by what is meant by 'implies' In logic, the word, necessarily is used more often in these examples. "Necessarily leads to B" So if you have A -> B and A -> !B, that is a contradiction.

Now, if you want to use English instead of logic, we can also examine that.

Lets use the word 'implies" which for many means, "could" or "not necessarily".

In which case A could, or could not lead to B. In other words, you're describing an induction. We cannot use A -> B here either, as that's not what it means. Once we had the result of the induction, there are two results we can conclude.

A always leads to (outcome) or
A sometimes leads to (outcome)

This can be determined through testing. For example, if I flip a coin, it sometimes comes out heads, and sometimes comes out tails. This can be written in logic as "Some A's lead to Bs, and some A's lead to not B's"

If of course The question was whether a coin always spins when flipped, we would see it would flip every time. In this case after the test it would be A -> B.

Does that answer your question?

However, most do happen in life-threatening situations. That said, most of the time when I refer to death I’m referring to clinical death, viz, when a doctor would pronounce someone dead. — Sam26

This is very important. Actual recorded death is not near death. Near death experiences cannot be used as an example for consciousness existing outside of the brain, as the brain would still be alive.

It’s the experience itself, the claim that people have had an OBE, and their experiences while having an OBE. This is the central point of my argument. It’s what people see during their NDE that supports their belief that they had an OBE — Sam26

I am not questioning that people have an out of body experience. The question is whether this out of body experience can be pinpointed at happening at the exact time of brain death, and that it is not merely a vivid dream of consciousness. Not near death, but during brain death. As I've noted, there have been no cases of brain death and NDE time.

What constitutes an NDE are certain common characteristics laid out in the Greyson scale in the following link: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271857657_The_Near-Death_Experience_Scale (Citation: Greyson, B. (2007). The near-death experience as a focus of clinical attention. The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 195(10), 883-890.) — Sam26

I genuinely appreciate the literature. But I don't think you're understanding what I'm stating again. I'm not denying NDE's happen. No one with even a little bit of medical understanding does. What I'm denying is that they are any proof of consciousness actually leaving the body. As I noted with my last two links, NDE's can be replicated medically by brain stimulation and temporary oxygen deprivation. In no case has there been a confirmation of someone actually seeing their body. A very easy test is once the patient is unconscious, a person places some object or writing behind them where their eyes cannot see. If the person is actually having a real out of body experience, they'll see it. No out of body experience has ever been able to accurately report this.

The question is, “Do you understand my points?” If people are having these experiences, i.e., they are veridical, then my conclusion follows based on the numbers, variety, and truth of testimonials (corroborative evidence and consistency of reports). — Sam26

You can just use the word 'true' instead of veridical, that's fine. No, your conclusion does not follow from NDE's being real. You have to demonstrate the NDE's happen on brain death, that out of body experiences are able to accurately report the way the room was at brain death, and that NDE's cannot be replicated by temporary oxygen deprivation that has little risk of death, or can't be duplicated by stimulating the brain. All of these demonstrate that this is a brain function, not consciousness leaving the brain and coming back in.

Have you ever had a vivid dream before? I ask, because some people don't. A vivid dream can feel incredibly real. I have sometimes come out of dreams thinking that I was in another world. Of course, I wasn't. You have to understand that your brain simulates everything. The light entering your eyes is not vision. The brains interpretation of it and construction is. I can envision things when I shut my eyes and have vivid daydreams. My consciousness is not leaving my brain, its just an aspect of the brain.

Unless you’re simply saying that the experiences are real but not veridical. — Sam26

No, the subjective experience is real. There is no objective demonstration that a person has actually left their body and seen the room as it is changed away from their bodies eyes. There is no objective confirmation that someone's OBE happened during brain death. Just like when I had a vivid dream of fighting a gorilla and woke up, my consciousness did not travel to another dimension where I fought an actual gorilla.

The paper you cited doesn’t take into account much of the research that has been done and oversimplifies the NDE research. As I said, I’ve been studying these accounts for many years and have read many of the counterarguments, most try to explain the memory reports in very dubious ways, which I and many others have found wanting. — Sam26

Feel free to cite some counters then. This is too generic for me and I'll need more details please. Your experience and whether things are wanting are irrelevant, just like my opinions on the matter are irrelevant. Cite facts and studies that demonstrate why or why not NDEs are valid/invalid.

To argue that my argument doesn’t “…logically lead to [my] conclusion…” you have to demonstrate that the premises aren’t true, and you’ve failed miserably at that. — Sam26

No, I don't. You've already done that for me. You're already stated you're using an inductive argument, which by definition, is not true. Its a prediction, or supposition. To have a viable inductive argument, you need to demonstrate why it overrides facts that counter your induction, or demonstrate why its more rational than other competing inductive arguments that have competing or contrasting conclusions with yours.

I have not denied NDE's exist. I've demonstrated that they are not evidence of consciousness surviving the body due to the fact that no OBE's can be objectively confirmed with tests, and we can simulate NDE's at lower levels of trauma with neurology and oxygen deprivation. Not to mention the mounds of medical research that demonstrate you are your brain. Neuroscience, psychadelics, psychiatrics, and even numerous cases of brain trauma have all demonstrated this.

Another important point is the nature of consciousness itself, i.e., can consciousness be explained by simply appealing to brain functions? The answer for me at least, and for many other scientists and philosophers, is no — Sam26

For scientists, this is incorrect. "You are your brain," is the only reasonable scientific conclusion with what we know. People test and hypothesize that there is more, but none of these have borne fruit. A hypothesis is not a scientific conclusion. As for philosophers, yes. You can find a philosopher that will believe almost anything. The question is whether they can give a reasonable argument for their beliefs.

Lets address Chalmers. Yes, I'm very familiar with him.

In Nagel’s 1974 paper, What Is It Like to Be a Bat Nagel also explores subjective experiences and the nature of consciousness. He concludes that consciousness has an irreducible aspect, and I agree based on my studies which go beyond what I’ve given in this thread. He further concludes that the physicalist approach to consciousness is not sufficient to address our subjective experiences and that we need a fundamentally new approach to concepts and methods. — Sam26

Two points:

1. There has been nearly a lifetime of brain research since he published his 1974 paper. We barely had basic computers back then. We have made immense strides. Research neuroscience, not philosophy.

2. You misinterpret what he means by "the physicalist approach to consciousness is not sufficient". Chalmers to this date does not deny that the brain is where consciousness comes from. What he's noting is that our study of the brain in particular to date, cannot be used as a model to explain the subjective experience. Let me explain further.

How you subjectively experience the world, and how a bat subjectively experiences the world are obviously different. Lets say that we further science to the point where we are able to perfectly replicate a bat's brain, and your brain. Can we still be the bat? No. Can we still be you? No. We would ask your brain, "How are you feeling?" and simulated neurons 44-100 would light up. Does that tell us what its like to be the experience itself of neurons 44-100 lighting up? No.

Lets say we objectively knock out the consciousness of your simulated brain by stimulating neurons 1-10. And we can do it every time. Objectively, you're unconscious. But what does it feel like subjectively? We'll never know. Its impossible to be the thing we're studying. That's what Chalmer's nailed. He did not deny in any way that consciousness is not generated from your brain.

The fact we can never objectively know what its like to be a subjective conscious is the hard problem. The idea that consciousness comes from your brain is the easy problem. People confuse this all the time and think that there some rational notion that we are not our brains. It has been confirmed that we are our brains for some time now, and if an inductive argument is going to challenge that, it has a lot more that it needs to tackle then what you've provide.

Although this post doesn’t address every question or challenge it gives more information to support my conclusions and raises other considerations. — Sam26

I may disagree with you, but I appreciate the write up and the citations.

Bob tries to follow Alice, but he has to guess which Earth she teleported to. What are Bob's chances of getting it right? — RogueAI

Bob's chances of getting it right are 1 out of infinity.

Is there any way for a teleporter machine to randomly select an Earth out of an infinite number of them in a finite amount of time, or is there always going to be, practically speaking, only a finite amount of Earths for Alice to teleport to because of the limitations of the machine? — RogueAI

Its your thought experiment, that's a limitation you decide.

What if I cheat and say the teleporter pokes a hole into the universe and the universe somehow, through a mysterious process, randomly picks an Earth out of an infinitely large ensemble for Alice to teleport to? Are Bob's chances of teleporting to Alice's world zero? — RogueAI

1 out of infinity still.

This was particularly amusing considering two years ago I was nominated for teacher of the year at my site for the first time. — RogueAI

Yes, due to age and experience. And again, you didn't win. My mother makes six figures and is often praised for her work. Both myself and my sister despise her because she's a mess in her personal life, and we don't call her after 5 o'clock. She too thinks her drinking is fine despite downing near a bottle of wine every night. She is not.

I also didn't say, "Productive at your job." I meant productive in general, in your life.

Notice to how you're not presenting contrary science or facts, but personal emotional anecdotes? That's rationalizing what you do, not being rational about what you do. What's more important? Emotionally confirming that you're ok and it does nothing wrong to you, or finding out the actual facts?

Thus again, you are a slave to your emotions. Because every fact about alcoholics shows that you are hurting yourself, diminished as an individual, and will likely gain comorbidities several years earlier. Just like smokers who think they're fine.

And yes, everyone I know is addicted to something: booze, food, painkillers, porn, weed, Facebook, smoking, sex, gambling, shopping, etc. — RogueAI

No. There is a difference between passing moderate enjoyment and addiction. Four drinks a day is in no way moderate.

A rational person would easily see that alcoholism is only detrimental to the individual. Only an emotional person would even try to argue otherwise without any science behind it. Not that I expect my words will get through. Rational arguments don't work against people who are slaves to their emotions. Its why you can rarely reason someone away from religion. Less intelligent people rely on their emotions more, and alcoholism also diminishes intelligence. So it becomes a trap that usually only a great and horrible event can overcome, and even then many fail.

Good luck RogueAI. I'm sure you'll rationalize that you're perfectly fine, never knowing how much greater you could have been.

I keep it at four drinks a day. My body seems to have handled that pretty well over the decades. Vital signs were good at last checkup. If I was really becoming as self-centered as you claim, I think it would have bled into my marriage or career, but those are going well too. — RogueAI

Rationalizations, but not rational arguments. You've likely diminished your intelligence, so have a lower awareness. That impacts your personal interactions more than you think. You're certainly less productive. Your biological age is also worse off. meaning you will not only die sooner, but start to suffer age related effects several years earlier.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-07-26-genetic-study-provides-evidence-alcohol-accelerates-biological-aging

Alcoholism is a slow poison that diminishes who you are as a person a few braincells at a time. If you could chart your diminished personality and intelligence over the years, you would likely panic. But because you don't see it daily, like a frog being boiled in a pot, you're cooking yourself without seeing it.

The problem with being dumber, is you often don't realize it. As your awareness diminishes, you sink ever more into habit, certainties, and have less room for new and interesting things in your life. I've grown up around alcoholics all of my life, and have seen recoveries. By all the science and facts, you are only causing harm to yourself. But because you emotionally like it, you keep doing it and will look for rationalizations to continue. Therefore, you are a slave to your emotions. Especially the part about, "Everyone is addicted to something." No, they aren't.

Every alcoholic thinks they're doing fine. Every single one of them is wrong. Every alcoholic thinks they're special. None of them are.

I agree with all that except the alcoholic part. I've been an alcoholic for 30 years, but I'm not (I don't think) a slave to my emotions. — RogueAI

Isn't that an emotional response? Rationally you know alcohol causes long term bodily and brain damage. The brain damage is especially at the emotional level. There is no benefit besides emotional satisfaction at the expense of your body. So yes, you are a slave to your emotions. My father was a former alcoholic, and has seen people sober vs in it deep. You change, even when you're not drinking right then. And its always, without exception, for the worst for everyone around you. You become so self-centered that you don't recognize it or dismiss anything that would get you to stop.

I agree we're in an oligarchy in practice, but that's what the voters want. Every two years, we have the option of throwing all the bums out in the House, but we never do. Even in "wave" years, the vast majority of House members are reelected. The tools are there to radically change the system, and if young people ever get politically active and turn out en masse... but that's a pipe dream. — RogueAI

But why do the voters want those people? There are a few reasons.

1. News organizations are owned by people with wealthy interests. So subjects are most often about manipulating the population for things a few wealthy people want, and not the subjects that most people would really want if it were blared in their face everyday.

2. In a democracy, the emotional, the tribal, and short term self-interested thinkers outweigh rational, long term people who take the time to think about the big picture. Since the news does not do its job of presenting long term rational thinking to viewers, these people are extremely easy to manipulate.

My mother is an example of this. She's an alcoholic, so basically a slave to her emotions. She's hooked to Fox News and "Selfish outrage" shows like a drug. She craves the idea that her hard work is being invalidated by lesser beings, so that's why we have to cut federal programs. Of course its all a sham by wealthy people to pay less taxes and have less reign on their ambitions. But she's too enamored with the group social outrage and "I'm better than them" mentality she keeps getting sold.

The ideal of a Democracy is that the people who live in an area vote their self-interest. The reality after things get too big, is we need honest messaging to show people what the real problems and solutions are. The reality is that because we let the wealthy have a monopoly on main stream messaging, its not honest. So all the little people are the soldiers between a few wealthy people's vision for the country.

How could we be a failed democracy with free and fair elections every two years? Do you see that going away? — RogueAI

A democracy is not about the illusion of representation. As I cited a little above:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

"A proposed policy change with low support among economically elite Americans (one-out-of-five in favour) is adopted only about 18% of the time," they write, "while a proposed change with high support (four-out-of-five in favour) is adopted about 45% of the time."

Your vote actually doesn't count for that much. If the wealthy want it, great. If not, it'll probably never happen.

Arguably, while we do elect our officials, the stream of information and who ultimately selects the candidates we vote on makes the USA more like an oligarchy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

"A proposed policy change with low support among economically elite Americans (one-out-of-five in favour) is adopted only about 18% of the time," they write, "while a proposed change with high support (four-out-of-five in favour) is adopted about 45% of the time."

"Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organisations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America's claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened."

So, your conclusion that I'm avoiding you and don't have answers to your posts is incorrect. There's nothing that you've posted that's difficult to answer, and much of what you've posted shows a lack of understanding of the subject of NDEs, even the paper you posted can be addressed, although it would take more time. — Sam26

If they are not difficult to answer, simply answer them.

First, I've given the criteria of a good inductive argument, and based on those criteria the inductive conclusion is overwhelmingly reasonable. — Sam26

And about my notes that you have several other competing inductive arguments out there that contradict and invalidate yours? I never said you didn't make an inductive argument. I demonstrated it doesn't rise above other more reasonable inductive arguments.

I don't know about you, but if someone tells me that they see X during their experience and it's corroborated by doctors, nurses, staff, and family members, then that's a veridical experience. You can keep denying what millions of people are saying because you're entrenched in a materialistic worldview, but it won't change the facts. — Sam26

Are you understanding my points? I never denied people don't have these experiences. I denied that they logically lead to a conclusion that there was life after death, both rationally, and do not hold inductively when compared to other stronger inductive arguments that show our consciousness does not live on after death.

Your responses demonstrate that you haven't studied these experiences, and your responses clearly show that. — Sam26

I have, and your conclusions about them do not hold water. They are fun, but do not lead to the conclusion that there is life after death when competing with other inductive arguments that demonstrate we do not. You are only looking at one side, and have not given me evidence of any other.

Again, I'm not aware of NDEs that don't generally confirm an OBE, so I don't know what you're referring to. — Sam26

I noted my Aunt had a near death experience during surgery. She felt like she was being tortured by demons. We didn't call up the NDE people to report it. She died a few weeks later btw. She's gone forever.

Here's an article on NDEs that aren't so nice. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6173534/
But I haven't heard you mention anything like these. Either you've cherry picked, haven't looked hard enough.

How about the studies in which they tested people's experiences by causing them to enter into unconsciousness and similar situations?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-near-death-experiences-reveal-about-the-brain/

"Scientists have videotaped, analyzed and dissected the loss and subsequent recovery of consciousness in highly trained individuals—U.S. test pilots and NASA astronauts in centrifuges during the cold war (recall the scene in the 2018 movie First Man of a stoic Neil Armstrong, played by Ryan Gosling, being spun in a multiaxis trainer until he passes out). At around five times the force of gravity, the cardiovascular system stops delivering blood to the brain, and the pilot faints. About 10 to 20 seconds after these large g-forces cease, consciousness returns, accompanied by a comparable interval of confusion and disorientation (subjects in these tests are obviously very fit and pride themselves on their self-control).

The range of phenomena these men recount may amount to “NDE lite”—tunnel vision and bright lights; a feeling of awakening from sleep, including partial or complete paralysis; a sense of peaceful floating; out-of-body experiences; sensations of pleasure and even euphoria; and short but intense dreams, often involving conversations with family members, that remain vivid to them many years afterward. These intensely felt experiences, triggered by a specific physical insult, typically do not have any religious character (perhaps because participants knew ahead of time that they would be stressed until they fainted)."

Or

"Many neurologists have noted similarities between NDEs and the effects of a class of epileptic events known as complex partial seizures. "

"More than 150 years later neurosurgeons are able to induce such ecstatic feelings by electrically stimulating part of the cortex called the insula in epileptic patients who have electrodes implanted in their brain. This procedure can help locate the origin of the seizures for possible surgical removal. Patients report bliss, enhanced well-being, and heightened self-awareness or perception of the external world. Exciting the gray matter elsewhere can trigger out-of-body experiences or visual hallucinations. This brute link between abnormal activity patterns—whether induced by the spontaneous disease process or controlled by a surgeon’s electrode—and subjective experience provides support for a biological, not spiritual, origin. The same is likely to be true for NDEs."

What seems strange to me is that you seem to ignore so many other studies and peer-reviewed material, which at least acknowledges that many of these questions are open to many scientists (open for them, not for me). — Sam26

Who?

Sorry I can't respond to everything or everybody, I just don't have the energy nor the inclination — Sam26

It sounds like you don't have a lot of time left. I've been harsh on the subject material, but not on you.
You may not see it as a gift, but really, it is. You will die. I will die. And that will be it. So don't waste your time. Fill it with family, friends, loved ones. Explore, fulfill your last curiosities, and do the things you've always wanted to do. Because after its over, its done. That's why we come here. To really think about things and sift the lies, illusions, and artificial hopes from reality. A life lived real is a really lived life. Good luck and enjoy your time.

By definition. Death is the end of living. There should be no debate. — ENOAH

Yes. I understand the sentiment to want there to be life after death. But that sentiment can be dangerous to those who spend their life looking for its truth. Even if there is some afterlife, which is by all rational evaluation impossible, it is best to live this life as if there is no continuation after. You only get one shot at this life with who you are. Don't waste it on fantasies.

I was a little surprised to find you had not addressed my response to you. I linked you a nice article and addressed your points. To ignore someone who does this and repeat what you spoke about earlier is avoidance, and an indicator that you don't have the answers to the previous points.

But if you'll sum up your points, I'll sum up why they don't work again.

My view of epistemology is that there are several ways of acquiring knowledge that aren’t dependent on a scientific approach (experimentation, data collection, and peer-reviewed papers). — Sam26

True. This is induction. And there are ways to evaluate whether some inductions are more cogent than other inductions.

he three epistemological elements of my argument include logic, sensory experience, and testimonial evidence. These three ways of acquiring knowledge are sufficient in themselves to make a reasonable conclusion that consciousness survives death. — Sam26

No, they are not.

1. Logic indicates you are making an induction, not a reasonable conclusion. Logic also indicates per the article that I linked, that the existence of NDE's does not mean that there was evidence of actual death at the time the person had the vision/dream.

2. Sensory experience has been disproven by the fact people can sink in and out of consciousness in anesthesia, and it has not been conclusively pin pointed when exactly a person had a NDE. It is not that NDE's do not happen, its that there's no indicator they are actual experiences after brain death. To conclude there is consciousness after death, one must have an example of consciousness after actual death and a return to life.

3. You only conclude a bias of testimonial evidence. You do not include the majority of cases in which people do not have NDE's when in similar near death experiences. You do not include the nightmares, or the visions of things that do not exist. You cherry pick nice and positive experiences then say, "They're all like that." They are all not. When taken as a whole, NDE's are very much like dreams and minimal conscious processing.

I’m not claiming that our knowledge in this case is known with absolute certainty, just as most of our knowledge isn’t known with absolute certainty. I’m claiming that the evidence is known with a high degree of certainty. — Sam26

Incorrect. The problem is your ignore all the counter inductions that have higher cogency. How do you explain that the majority do not have NDEs? How do you explain the NDEs that don't fit in with family and friends? Or the massive evidence that the brain is your mind, and that without the brain, there is no mind? You take a one sided biased approach and cut out any competing material, and of course it seems reasonable. That's not rational or a strong inductive argument. That's a desire you're trying to rationalize.

This objective component also dispels the notion that the experience is a hallucination, delusion, dream, lack of oxygen, etc. — Sam26

Not in the least. You have had opinions, but this is flat out wrong. In no way have these been ruled out and are strong competing inductions.

And to think that someone can point to some brain activity to show that it’s the brain that creates consciousness is similar to pointing to a component in a radio to show that what you’re listening to is confined to the radio. It doesn't follow. — Sam26

Then how do we artificially put people in comas? Or use anesthesia? Or demonstrate how alcohol poisoning can cause a person to black out? Or the fact that we have never seen consciousness in any form other than a brain?

Another important point is that many of the people who have NDEs report that their experience is not diminished, which is what you might expect with a brain that isn’t getting enough oxygen or blood, in fact, it is heightened. By heightened I mean their sensory experiences are much sharper, they see colors that they haven’t seen before, and their vision is reported to be expanded (360-degree vision) in many cases. — Sam26

You don't have senses when you are unconscious. Your brain takes sensory data and interprets it. Seeing colors you haven't experienced before is not unexpected when your brain is going into survival mode and trying to interpret what is happening. You can't see in 360 degrees, but your brain can envision it.

In short, you have an inductive argument, but it has serious flaws. It also does no better than competing inductive arguments which to my mind, have far less flaws. You have a self-confidence in your argument, but self-confidence and a feeling that it is right, does not make it right. You need to look at the counters and find some answers to those. Otherwise, you're just peddling a fantasy, and no one wants to be that person.

Only if we make it so. — Banno

This.

And by what criterion do we ‘go against ourselves?’ What higher motive intervenes against ‘emotion’ except another emotion? Let’s say I derive pleasure from playing video games all day. Then I decide it is getting in the way of my accomplishing more important goals. In both instances, the pleasure motivates my actions. — Joshs

This can be due to an emotional conflict. But for me, its a rational conflict. Playing games is a form of relaxation and entertainment. It doesn't actually assist the world in any way, make me wealthier, or more successful in actual life.

When it occurs to me that I could be using my time better elsewhere, this is motived by the potentially greater pleasure associated with those other activities. — Joshs

Then you are merely a pleasure seeking animal. This is not rational thinking.

Emotion here goes hand in hand with intellectual development. Why should we want to be reasonable unless knowledge were intrinsically rewarding? Why would knowledge change our mind about anything, causing us to ‘go against ourselves’, unless reason were its own reward? — Joshs

Because while reason can be its own reward, that again, is just a pleasure seeking creature. You are, once again, trying to elevate emotion to the level of rationality so you can justify your own emotional satisfaction. This is a completely normal rationalization response.

What you should be doing is put yourself in a position where the emotion to waste your time is stronger than your emotion to be productive when you need to be productive. When it takes all the willpower you have to drag yourself away and do something you would rather not be doing. When for the next hour, all you want to do is give up and go back to what you were doing.

If you can successfully do things that are rationally needed despite your emotional affectations towards them, then you are being a strong, rational human being. If you know you should be doing something more productive, but you can't pull yourself away from your own emotions, you are a weak rational human being. And if you just follow your emotions without thinking, you're a weak and stupid human being (not as an insult, just a description).

Emotional thinking craves that standard for itself. It hates that it isn't at that level.
— Philosophim
I think you're attributing a separate consciousness and thought process to feelings. There is no 'emotional thinking', but emotions do prompt thought and affect the thought process. And only one emotion can hate - and that one doesn't require a great deal of reasoning. — Vera Mont

I'm trying to speak in the language context they're using. The point is that there is a human tendency to argue for what we want over what is correct. A consistent strategy that people are drawn to is to try to elevate one's own emotional desires as somehow equal with rationality. Then we can do whatever we feel like and argue that we're "being smart in our own way."

Never underestimate the human tendency, which is in both you and I, to argue for one's own unearned excellence, sloth, greed, and emotional self-interest.

Emotions are snap judgements with what we perceive at the time, and nothing more.
— Philosophim
They're not judgments at all; they're primitive mental responses to sensory input from the environment and the body. It takes reason to name and describe them. — Vera Mont

I have no disagreements with this take. If you want to define judgement in the cerebral sense that's fine by me. A quick digest of a situation is probably a more accurate term.

Would you be amenable to the idea that it is just as a convenience that we separate affective and rational aspects
of thought into district categories? — Joshs

No. Its a clear difference in approach and thought. Everyone knows that 'rationality' is the gold standard. Emotional thinking craves that standard for itself. It hates that it isn't at that level. But if it could convince everyone it is, then there's no stopping it.

What if we just treated the rational and the affective , the hedonic and the cognitive, as two inseparable components of all thinking? — Joshs

They are separable because even basic living creatures have emotional thinking. There is a clear separation between the two.

At every turn in a rational argument the aim we are driving toward acts as a guide and criterion for what constitutes the correctness and relevance of our thinking. — Joshs

Again, this is rationalizing. If you're reasoning to obtain the satisfaction of a certain emotional desire, you're going to reject anything that goes against that emotional desire as 'wrong'. This is why emotion is not a good guide for rationality. To be rational, we must often go against ourselves.

I know this won’t convince you, but I wanted to counter your comment with Robert Solomon’s view of emotion: — Joshs

This isn't a very good counter, because it doesn't address what I said.

“I didn’t mean it; I didn’t know what I was doing. I acted without thinking;

I said people rationalize their emotions. That requires thinking, intention, etc. I also said emotions are an impetus to act, they are not thoughts themselves. One can act without any further thought, after rationalizing, or being rational. Emotions do not preclude thought.

“I was emotionally upset”; that is the touchstone of a cop-out plea of momentary insanity.

I never said emotions removed agency. I never said following emotions is something you can't control. Of course you have (most of the time) have agency when you follow your emotions. Saying you don't is an excuse. We are talking about mentally able adults of course.

Nothing you have ever done has been more rational, better conceived, more direct from the pit of your feelings, or better directed toward the target. That momentary outburst of emotion was the burning focus of all that means most to you, all that has grown up with you, even if much of it was unacknowledged.

Right. Emotions are an impetus. They planned around fulfilling that impetus. That's not rationality. That's wanting to emotionally fulfil a desire and planning to do it.

And yet we hear, “emotions are irrational”—virtually a platitude.

Emotions are neither rational or irrational. Your actions are rational or irrational. Acting on emotion alone if you have time to think first is often times irrational. Acting on emotion after thinking about what outcomes will result, and putting the value of emotional fulfillment as a secondary concern, is rational.

The emotions are said to be stupid, unsophisticated, childish, if not utterly infantile, primitive, or animalistic—relics from our primal past and perverse and barbaric origins.

No, I never said this. Impetus is incredibly important for those who have not developed rational minds. Without impetus or some rational guide, you cannot do anything. Emotion is incredibly useful in accomplishing things in life. But emotion is a motivator, not thinking itself.

Emotions, I have argued elsewhere,1 are judgments, intentional and intelligent. Emotions, therefore may be said to be rational in precisely the same sense in which all judgments may said to be rational; they require an advanced degree of conceptual sophistication, including a conception of self and at least some ability in abstraction.

Emotions are digests of a particular situation that want an expected outcome. They are inductive snap judgements, and some people have a more accurate emotional capacity for induction then others. But it is a quick digest, not the careful examination and thinking rationality entails.

In this sense, we may well talk of the “logic” of the emotions, a logic that may at times be quite difficult to follow but a logic which is, nevertheless, never merely an emotion’s own.

No, this is just another person trying to justify fulfilling their emotions and elevating them in importance as something approaching rational thought. It is not. Emotions are snap judgements with what we perceive at the time, and nothing more.

Are either of you familiar with the affective turn in the social sciences and philosophy that took place a few decades ago (Antonio Damasio’s work is one exemplification of it)? The gist of it is that emotion is the cradle within which rationality rests. It is what gives the rational its coherence, intelligibility and relevance. Without emotion rationality becomes dysfunctional and useless. — Joshs

If fully disagree with this assessment. Emotion is the aspect of impetus and motivation. Rationality is an evaluation of if we should, and how we should act if we should. This is through my own personal experience. I have many deadened and addictive tendency emotions. If I listened to my emotions, I would likely be homeless or dead at this point in my life. Its not that I don't have them, but they do not make the decisions, I do.

What matters in life are outcomes. I might feel bad and not want to work, but I go in anyway. I may not care that someone is doing poorly in life, but I know that reaching out can make things better. I could kill somebody and likely not feel any guilt or remorse. But what good would that do?

Emotions are for children and animals. They are guides and impulses for doing, not thinking. Rationality is contemplative. It considers all sides. It looks for outcomes. Then you have to decide if you want to act on that rational outcome, or your emotion.

The impetus from a young age is to rationalize acting upon emotions you feel. Rationalizing is inventing and coming up with ideas that 'back up' the emotional outcome you want. Being rational often times directly challenges your emotions, and thus the natural inclination of people from a young age is not to be rational, but to rationalize.

As you get older, hopefully you have people who teach you that being rational results in better outcomes. Sometimes outcomes align with our emotions, but many times they do not. That's a major difference between stupid and intelligent people. Stupid or ignorant people invent all sorts of rationalizing to justify fulfilling their strongest emotions like sex, love, hate, "I do what I want and its moral", etc. The reason why you can't tell a stupid person that they're stupid, is because they're enraptured by their own emotions. So they'll get angry and blame you. They'll come up with 'reasons' to justify their emotions. They'll say, "I don't feel stupid," then rationalize why.

Intelligent people can be called stupid, and analyze it. They might feel angry, but perhaps the other person has a point. They swallow their pride and realize, "You know what, I was stupid there. Time to correct it," despite feeling shame or embarrassment about it.

That being said, emotions still propel us. Especially early on when we're not rational. But as we improve in life and build ourselves up to lose rationalizing and become more rational, emotions matter less and less. But the seat of rationality itself? No. Just impulse.

No, actually. It was an unfortunate choice of the critical word in the OP: I failed to consider all the ways it might be interpreted. Entirely my fault.
What I asked was not how the potential suicide himself ought to consider the issue, but whether you consider anyreasons for suicide to be rational - as distinct from moral or legal. — Vera Mont

Ah, no worry! Numbers 2 and 3 are my reasons then. Feel free to comment further or end the conversation then. I don't think you had any issue with what I considered rationally viable, only in how to approach it.

I have done that. Real people, in pain and fear, cannot be unemotional about their situation. Rule 1. bites the dust at the diagnosis of cancer or the repossession of someone's house. — Vera Mont

The topic was how to rationally approach suicide. I didn't state you wouldn't be emotional. I stated don't make decisions due to emotion. That's irrational. Saying, "People can't be rational," is not a counter to point 1, but an emotional denial. Whether or not a person chooses to be rational is in their power. But if you are going to be rational, you cannot make your choice by emotion.

That being said, these are decisions you really cannot make on your own, and need other rational people to analyze the situation with you. If you don't want to tell anyone that you're thinking of doing it for example, then you shouldn't do it.
— Philosophim
That is the most difficult piece of advice, and I have told you why, several times. Other people are also emotional. They can't turn it off just because you tell them to. — Vera Mont

Difficult to follow doesn't mean 'irrational'. I've noted you find people who care about you, and consult several people. I've noted that despite there being other people that you may encounter who will not be rational, assuming they won't is irrational as well. A solo mind is weak and vulnerable, and a monumental decision to end one's life should not be made alone.

Your fear that others around you will not be rational is emotional. Rationally, you should be approaching terms of suicide ahead of emotionally turbulent times. As I noted earlier, my parents have already discussed with me end of life procedures. If you come to a point that doesn't meet those parameters and want to end your life, that's a sign its emotional and you need to reach out to others.

Sometimes even people who have discussed end-of-life care go back on their promises when the death of a parent or spouse is imminent. — Vera Mont

This is always a possibility when trust is involved. That is a risk you have to take, and once again, why you involve multiple people to handle if one goes rogue. That's part of being rational about it. Saying, "Everyone might not follow what I ask and everyone is going to be irrational," is an irrational emotional reaction.

Many family members and friends, if you tell them you're contemplating suicide, go ballistic, get religious and righteous on your ass, plead and cry and maunder on about the sanctity of life, then confiscate your meds and have you put in a locked ward, where you are deprived of all means of ending your own pain: you no longer have a choice, freedom or autonomy. I know this from having witnessed it. (One patient was so desperate, she stuffed her bedsheet down her throat.) — Vera Mont

I assume we're talking adults here. Children do not have the right to suicide period. Their brains are underdeveloped and do not have full rational capacity yet. If you're an adult, no one can do this to you. Further, I noted that rational reasons for suicide are excessive resource use both time and monetarily, or excessive crippling over time and being kept alive by machines. More people agree with this rationale than you think. If you're not in one of these cases and wanting to commit suicide, then you are being irrational. If they cannot reason with you when you're being irrational, then monitoring you until you get over your emotional turmoil is the smart thing to do.

I'm not really hearing any rational counter argument here, just emotional ones. And the emotions generally are, "But I WANT to commit suicide. I don't want to tell other people because I'm afraid they'll stop me." That's emotional, not rational. The rational way to approach suicide is this. "I want to commit suicide. I better consult other people I trust who care about me to make sure I'm not being crazy." There is always risk in involving other people, but avoiding other people is a tried tactic of, "I want to do what I want, and I'm afraid other people will talk me out of it because deep down...I know its probably not right." Again, an emotional avoidant tactic, not a rational approach.

That is what I have been attempting to do. Your rules apply in some cases, but do not cover many of the likely scenarios that real people in the real world have to face. — Vera Mont

Explain how your scenarios explicitly are not covered by the three points I posted. You have not done that.

Show me you're thinking about the discussion instead of peppering me with questions you haven't tried to solve on your own first.
— Philosophim
I have solved them for myself. — Vera Mont

Then please explain. I do not know your personal conclusions and how they contrast with the three points I made unless you state it.

Point is, they're not random. They are all too real and too common. — Vera Mont

Its not that the scenarios are random, its that you're randomly putting them in as questions after the fact or a previous discussion without bothering to address why they do not fit the three points I made.

Apply what I've noted to your scenarios, then point out why they do not work.
— Philosophim
Did that, too. I've been in your perspective, but that was a long time ago. — Vera Mont

No, I have yet to see you say, "X doesn't work with point 1 because..." or anything of that nature.

You keep stating the same thing over and over. I didn't ignore it; I pointed out where it doesn't apply. — Vera Mont

No, you stated a new scenario as a question without regards to the points made.

Sure, it would be nice to think everyone can contemplate their own debility, suffering and death unemotionally, and that everyone has many friends and relatives, all available for consultation, all able to assess the situation and think clearly. — Vera Mont

Your question was essentially "How do we rationally consider suicide?" I noted to find other people who care about you, and consult more than one. That doesn't have to be family or friends as I've already stated. So your point is irrelevant. This is why I keep asking you to think about what's been said prior to posting. Lets focus the conversation a bit more and think, "What if someone is contemplating suicide at this moment and needs some rational steps to consider?"

Look, are you just going to keep inventing scenarios for every answer I give?
— Philosophim
Nope. Just mentioning the realities you didn't take into account. — Vera Mont

Because there are an infinite amount of variations and scenarios one can invent. First try to see if the rational rules I gave can adapt to the situation. If they don't, show me why they don't. Show me you're thinking about the discussion instead of peppering me with questions you haven't tried to solve on your own first.

A. My friends and family care about me.
Therefore they cannot think rationally about me.
— Philosophim
Not what I said. I said many families that care about one another are also emotional when it comes to the potential death of a loved one. You can't necessarily count on them thinking objectively. — Vera Mont

And you can't necessarily discount on them thinking objectively either. You keep emphasizing the first part while seemingly ignoring the second part. This is why I note you consult multiple people, not just one.

You think old age, illness and disability are silly? I hope you have a long wait to find out. — Vera Mont

No, I think your posting random scenarios without thinking about how they play in what has been discussed so far is silly. You're being contrarian instead of thinking about it. Apply what I've noted to your scenarios, then point out why they do not work. That's a rational discussion. Ignoring what I've said and just bulldozing ahead to specific scenarios without analysis to what's already been said is disorganized, and ignores what I've stated so far. If my points are going to be ignored and not thought about, then why am I bothering to chat with you? Try to view it from my perspective for a minute.

If these people are not invested in your well being, don't rely on them.
— Philosophim
Only, they are invested. Deeply. — Vera Mont

Look, are you just going to keep inventing scenarios for every answer I give? Is it going to be, "What if your family are held by hostages, and those hostages are also suicidal?" next? :) I've already given you the answer on what to do from my previous replies. Why don't you tell me what the rational think would be from your viewpoint instead?

But don't shun your family and friends and think they can't be rational because they care about you. That's foolish.
— Philosophim
No, it's a factual one. — Vera Mont

Let me be very clear about the logic

A. My friends and family care about me.
Therefore they cannot think rationally about me.

This is wrong. This is not factual. I've already told you consult multiple people. For end of life scenarios, you should be discussing these with people long before you're put in this situation. I didn't say every friend or family member is rational. But to avoid friends and family because caring about you means they can't be rational? No.

You're in wheelchair or hospital bed. You go no place. People come to you, if they're willing, or they shun you because you remind them of their own mortality. — Vera Mont

I'm going to one up your silliness.

"You're a brain in a vat. There is no one. Not even you. The concept of suicide or living no longer exists. Despite this, you want to commit suicide, even though you don't know what it is. What do you do?"

Do you understand that I'm telling you general solutions to a general problem? Being rational is partly reasoning through the concepts as a whole to apply to specifics when needed. Use your own brain here. Understanding what I've said previously, what do you think is rational in this particular situation?

An isolated mind is not smart or a genius.
— Philosophim
Some are. But it doesn't take genius to decide whether your own life is too hard to bear. — Vera Mont

No, incredibly few are. The myth of the solo genius is a myth. Every idea needs to be bounced off of other human beings. No matter how smart you are, you are still human. You have a very limited world view compared to the richness of perspective and thoughts of multiple brains working on the same situation.

As for whether your life is "Too hard to bear," do you remember rule 1? Don't make emotional decisions. "Too hard" is an emotion. I already gave viable reasons for suicide that are non-emotional, and informed you that you should involve other people in it. Have you been thinking about those as you ask your questions? Because it feels like you're ignoring it and just pressing on with a bunch of "What if" scenarios that already have answers.

If you're a whiny emo who believes you're smarter than the rest of the world, that life is pain, and no one else can understand it because you're surrounded by idiots, you're being a child. I'll make the points even simpler.

1. Don't be emotional in suicidal decisions.
2. Involve other people who have your best interest, consult multiple to ensure the most rational decision can be gleaned.
3. Rational and viable reasons for suicide are excessive crippling, degradation, or excessive costs in resources or time from yourself or others to stay alive.

If you ignore the first 2 and decide you can make a sound judgement on 3 on your own, you cannot. That's an emotional retreat because you're afraid the first two will dissuade you from your emotional desires. Its not that complicated.

Other people are, unfortunately, stuck with religious, volatile, sentimental, emotion-driven relatives, with whom you can't discuss anything serious. — Vera Mont

If these people are not invested in your well being, don't rely on them. Thinking about what I said should have made this answer obvious. Do you have an emotional wish to justify suicide? You doing ok?

Thinking everyone who cares about you means they can't think clearly, is not rational.
— Philosophim
Not everyone, but many. — Vera Mont

Again, this is an irrational response. Of course there are people who can't think rationally. Don't rely on those people. But don't shun your family and friends and think they can't be rational because they care about you. That's foolish.

A rational mind understands that an isolated mind is much less capable then a good group of people with a common purpose.
— Philosophim
Maybe so. But who says all the minds in a given situation are rational? — Vera Mont

Again, I felt I was pretty clear. You go to multiple people. Find professionals if you lack friends. Go online to suicide help forums. Call someone. The rational thing is to reach out to other people to ensure that your decision making is on point. An isolated mind is not smart or a genius. It is vulnerable and weak.

What? If your throat is blocked by a feeding tube, you can't think? — Vera Mont

All you need is a finger on the button that controls the morphine feed and permission to use it.

But my question wasn't about physical capabilities. It was only about reasons. — Vera Mont

Then lets leave the physical capabilities out of it.

Where do you find these rational people in this situation? Not family members: they're emotional and have their own self-interest to consider - from both sides. — Vera Mont

Wrong. Rationally you want people who are invested in your well being in the picture. For example, my parents have given me the ability to call a "Do not resuscitate". I understand why. I will ensure that if there is a viable chance for their life and well being to be preserved, I'll do everything in my power. But I won't put them through torture or keep them artificially alive. Thinking everyone who cares about you means they can't think clearly, is not rational.

On the other hand, I can make a judgement to see whether they're just tired, depressed, or frustrated if they wanted to be killed without good reason. In that case, I can get them help. Emotionally they won't want it, but rationally, they should have it.

If you talk about the burden your continued incapacity will place on them, they feel pressured to demur, say they'd rather have you than the money or free time or use of the living room, even though they secretly wish you had died in the accident and feel guilty as hell about that. — Vera Mont

That is why you have multiple people. There may be one family member or friend who feels inconvenienced by you for the wrong reason. I won't 'pull the plug' without talking to my sister first. A rational mind understands that an isolated mind is much less capable then a good group of people with a common purpose.

You could take a chance on your doctor, I guess. If you have the ability to speak intelligibly. — Vera Mont

If you don't have the capability to ask your doctor, then you're not being rational in a decision to commit suicide. You can kill yourself but can't ask a doctor? That's not rational. That's purely emotional.

Pretty clear why it wasn't published.

From a purely rational standpoint,
are there sound, logical reasons to commit suicide? — Vera Mont

Yes.

1. It must not be emotional.

The mistake a lot of people make is they try to rationalize going through with an emotion. In all of these cases, this is not being rational and should not be done.

2. The resources to keep you alive are too costly.

If you're so injured that the only thing keeping you alive is a machine that will cost an inordinate amount of money and/or your time to the point where you and or your family are crippled financially and/or by time stolen from this, its viable to decide to commit suicide.

Again, this is not emotional. This is a careful cost benefit analysis that should be reviewed by others first.

3. Staying alive will result in an inevitable amount of unavoidable pain and degradation that will cripple you, and create an undue burden of time and resources needed by others to take care of you.

These seem to be the core three, and most situations can be addressed by putting them through these three points.

That being said, these are decisions you really cannot make on your own, and need other rational people to analyze the situation with you. If you don't want to tell anyone that you're thinking of doing it for example, then you shouldn't do it.

And yet, while we blame businesses, we often times do not blame people who work for them. I mean the rank and file. You see, many basic workers are greedy too, and can be convinced that increased wages mean worthy people will lose jobs. Or that regulation means less profit for the company, and therefore a lower paycheck. Or that wealth is a measure of 'hard work', and you don't want your 'hard work' to be diminished by outside forces either.

And its not that these things aren't true. Its that greed forces a myopic view point on "my self-benefit only", instead of thinking about the broader picture and economy. The resistance to fix the issue of greed could easily be overcome if it were just a few people at the top. But its a large mass of greedy rank and file people who are the real problem.

So much agreement - but the devil is in the details — Treatid

True! Even if there is disagreement, I enjoy reading your details.

1. The choice is not between objective and chaos. The choice is between objective and relative. — Treatid

I agree with this.

General Relativity (GR) is wholly incompatible with Newtonian Mechanics (NM). — Treatid

That's not quite correct. NM works at small bodies, but does not scale to large bodies. GR works with large bodies, and when you scale it down to small bodies, it results in NM. That may be irrelevant however, your point is really you seem to think I believe in chaos versus objective. If the example doesn't quite work, I still want to make sure I understand you point. If I don't quite understand it, please try again.

1+1=2 is true within Euclidean Geometry. We know for a fact that our universe is non-Euclidean. — Treatid

This is also not true. We have Euclidean and non-Euclidean applications depending on what we're measuring. Just like big vs small bodies, the context of how and what we're measuring matters for the equation.

Which is to say, there are infinitely many more systems in which 1+1 != 2 than in which 1+1=2. — Treatid

No. If the definition of 1, +, =, and 2 are the same, the result is the same. We can change the definitive context of each of those symbols, so 1 would would translate to 3, and 2 would translate to 8. In which case yes, 1+1 != 2 because that would translate to 3+3=8. Once you have solidified your concepts, the application can be inductive or deductive. Yes, we can change the meaning of the symbols to whatever we want. But once we decide on them, there is a set logic that always follows.

In a closed system (like the universe) all definitions are circular. That is A --> B --> A.

Which is to say that according to the common conception of 'definition' there are no definitions.

We can describe A in terms of B. We can describe B in terms of A. That's it. That is the complete list of things we can do with language. — Treatid

My theory escaped that circularity. You can start from the fact you discretely experience, and assign any of those discrete experiences as words in your memory. The base discrete experience is the foundation. It requires no further description. It is when we try to communicate these experiences with other people that we have to find common meaning somehow in symbols. Once common meaning can be established, then both of us can deductively conclude that 1+1=2 objectively.

In the entire history of mankind there has never been a non-circular definition.

Or, more constructively, meaning is dependent on context. — Treatid

Again, we both have discrete experiences. We are both able to assign that personal experience to a common symbol for common ground. We could not communicate at all if we did not do this. And yet we're able to. You can't quite provide your discrete experience to me, and I can't quite provide my discrete experience to you, but we can come to a common enough ground to communicate the essential picture of the experience without the specific picture of the experience itself.

What I am doing is trying to break down complex concepts into more simple and easier to comprehend ideas. People think better when you can get down to fine grained foundations, and build on top of them.
— Philosophim

Do they? You have evidence of this? — Treatid

I do. :) I was a high school math teacher for five years. This is one of the many techniques to teach something effectively to others. I currently program for a living and part of the best practices is to code in bite sized pieces for readability. I have an engineering friend that has shown me diagrams that break complex components into simple to digest pieces. There is a certain limit in how much information a human can hold at once in thoughts. We use 'grouping' to help this.

Try to memorize this number by single digits: 24777977
Now try to remember it by grouping it: 24-777-977 The second is much easier.

This is also what words are for. Grouping complex and detailed concepts into generalities. When I say "Physics" you don't think of the entirety of every physical law and formula. We break physics down into "theories" and "formulas". Too detailed, and you can't comprehend how it all fits together. Not enough detail and the generality seems obtuse and overly generalized.

Joshs describes how experiences (such as new ideas) are more easily digested when they largely align with our expectations for those experiences.

In this conception (which I agree with), the ease of assimilation is how closely new ideas fit within our existing framework. — Treatid

Agreed. This is because the human mind favors efficiency and 'good enough' over perfection. Sometimes that bites us down the road and I'm not immune to it. But what ensures the base of that framework in a rational sense versus an ideological sense? Rational frameworks can weather challenges that reality throws at it by adaptation. Ideological or emotional frameworks oftentimes have to go to great lengths to cover up its rational holes, because some framework is better than no framework at all.

That is why an idea can be unique and correct, but entirely rejected. One has to shape new discoveries in relation to the current framework so that there can be understanding. People will tentatively explore the new framework only if they see benefit. If those that adopt it start to see success, others will follow.

Just as plausible that everything we know in physics will be found wrong in the future
— Philosophim

Like the JWST crisis in cosmology? — Pantagruel

Exactly. All knowledge is an assertion of what we know today. We know its possible to learn new things and change what we know over time. What I'm stating here applies to all rational claims, not just the afterlife. I don't have anything personal against the afterlife, there's just no evidence for it. It doesn't mean we didn't know what physics was prior to the new discovery. Its that we knew physics as what it was prior to the new discovery. That knowledge is based on what can be rationally concluded with the information we have at the time.

I have a pretty good grasp of what's scientific and what's not. I'm not aware of any science that contradicts the fact that consciousness appears to transcend materialism in significant ways. — Pantagruel

The significant science and medical conclusions over the years can be summarized here:

Advances in neuroscience: Being able to predict what people are going to say before they say it. Prodding the brain to elicit responses. Brain mapping which entails areas that are catered to different functions of the body and sense interpretation. Cutting the corpus callosum and seeing how people are different afterward. Brain injuries that alter people's personalities, or ability to perceive senses despite the sense organs being perfectly healthy.

Psychotherapy: Depression and psychiatric treatment of extreme mental disorders such as schizophrenia and other forms of psychopathy. Alcohols slow deterioration of the brain in alcoholics and how it directly affects their motor skills and capability to reason.

No measurable energy outside of what would chemically be predicted upon brain death emerges or is found emanating from the body. No indicator of being able to communicate with a dead consciousness.

Everything points to your consciousness forming from your brain, and without your brain, you have no consciousness. If consciousness could exist separately from the body, but it needed a physical brain to 'live', then the disentanglement of consciousness should be physically detectable. But there is no evidence.

The study of insect and mammalian brains. Do you think they're consciousness exists after death? There is no evidence of this either.

So I see tons of points that lead us to rationally conclude consciousness does not extend on after death. There is no how, where, what, or why. There is only a personal belief in the desire that it be true.

Found lacking by you and some others. Some other others have been more sympathetic — T Clark

I'm not talking to them, but about our conversation.

Thank you for your smug condescension. — T Clark

It was not meant to be condescending, but pointing out as a fellow human being something I think you were not aware of. Feel free to disagree, but it was not meant to talk down to you.

By contradictions I assume you mean conflict or potential conflict. There is nothing in my description of my personal morality, so-called, that prevents me from taking the needs and interests of other people into account. — T Clark

Nor is there anything that compels or inclines you to take the needs and interests of others in account. Which again, is not any moral principle at all besides, "I do what I want". And if other people take your moral principle and interact with you, steal from you, beat you up, then say, "Its just my nature, I'm being moral," you have no rational answer besides to accept their claim. I'm not saying you couldn't come up with a more reasonable answer, but you didn't even bother to.

As for the direct question of, "Are our values based on rational considerations?" this is hardly a debate.
— Philosophim

Based on the contents of this thread, it seems you are wrong. — T Clark

I am not discussing with the thread, I am discussing with you.

You've started to be insulting. Perhaps we should end it here. — T Clark

I asked you not to get defensive and just think about what I was saying. That's hardly an intent to insult, especially after I've complimented you a few times in this thread. If you don't want to engage anymore, that is your call.

Life? Sure. Consciousness? No. They are not necessarily equivalent. Perhaps Consciousness is emergent from Life. — Pantagruel

True, they aren't equivalent. But we have not seen any evidence of life nor consciousness continue after death. Therefore there is 0 probability, and thus it is impossible for us to say consciousness continues after death as well.

Is it plausible that consciousness continues after death? Just as plausible that everything we know in physics will be found wrong in the future. But these plausibilities are not facts, likelihoods, or an assertion of anything more than imagined speculation. We may speculate and imagine all we want, but rationally we need to make decisions regarding what we know today.

You of course can believe in pluasibilities, there's nothing stopping you. The question is whether the belief is rational or not. In the case of consciousness after death, it is an irrational belief. All evidence of the brain and mind points to the end of consciousness after death, while there has never been any viable evidence that points to its opposite. It is, with our current understanding, only justified by the fact we want consciousness to exist after death, and nothing more.

I've made a rational argument that non-rational considerations have to be taken into account when dealing with philosophical, and human, issues. That is not a radical position to take. — T Clark

Of course, no disagreement. You've taken an non-rational position into account, but it has been found lacking in the larger claim of morality. Considering not rational positions is fine and a good thing. But considering something does not mean concluding it is correct. I see no indication that your position is tenable as anything apart from someone who wants to justify living as they see fit without any further consideration of how this plays out if everyone followed the same ideal.

Emerson and I respond - "So be it." I think that answers your question. You may not find that satisfactory, but I think it's at least clear. — T Clark

If this is your final answer, then you did answer my question. You do not believe in morality then, you believe nothing should dictate your actions besides yourself. You are unconcerned with contradictions when other people are involved, and I doubt that in practice, you would live in such a way if such conflicts arose.

T Clark, I like you and think you're generally a well spoken and decent person. But this is weak. When you introduce your ideas on these boards, it is not a place to assert and not address the details of your argument. That's just proselytizing. I feel you can be better than that, and maybe you're unaware of what you're doing, so I'm bringing it to your attention. I get you may feel defensive over this accusation, please don't. Think about it for some time first.

How is what you've written not also an opinion? We've both supported our views with more or less rational argument. — T Clark

No, I have not seen a rational argument. I have seen rationalizing, or presentation of weak support for what one wants while dismissing things which would challenge it. A quote from someone expressing a similar opinion as yourself is not a rational argument.

They both go back to a question of values. Is it your position that our values - what we consider important, what we like and dislike, what we think is good and bad - is all and only based on rational considerations? — T Clark

No, it is a question of what morals are vs what we value. If you claim what you value is what is moral, then you have much more to explore and answer as to why this rationally is. If you're going to claim, "It just is," then this isn't a rational conversation, just a statement of opinion. This would be the same as me asking someone, "If God is real and good, why does evil happen?" and they replied, "It just does, its good because God allowed it."

As for the direct question of, "Are our values based on rational considerations?" this is hardly a debate. Personal values do not have to be based on rational decisions. But this is not morality. You have to assert that what we personally desire and value is morality, when the default is that they are very separate things. It is your assertion that they are the same that you have not proved that is the problem.

Its plausible that we survive after death.
— Philosophim

I agree. — Pantagruel

Which is fine. You can agree with any plausibility. Its plausible that green men live on the moon. Or plausible that anything you can imagine could be. Agreeing with it is irrelevant to any claim of truth or fact.

More importantly, do you agree by the definitions above that it is impossible for life to continue after death? And I don't mean your feelings, I mean rationally?

I also believe that a good measure of logical thinking is built into our biological firmware, but so is quite a bit of arithmetic: — Tarskian

Oh, no debate there. I'm just noting that to express the formal logic of arithmetic, you have to logically ascertain what '1' is as an abstract. What '+' means as an abstract. What '=' means as an abstract. You can't use math to prove math, because you must first invent the symbols and meanings that math is based off of.

This seems like a side track off of the larger conversation at this point however.