Perhaps. But, I think that there's far more to it than our intelligence services will make public. The stuff kept more secret will ensure that he's done.

If found guilty of violating the espionage act, which he clearly has, he cannot run for public office ever again. I think he was compromised while president.

Note how the parrot will not address the indictment...

Read the indictment NOSBOT...

He did far more than that.

...

Distraction... designed.

Note how the parrot will not address the indictment...

It's called projection... lots of current Republican officials muddy the water by accusing others of exactly what they are doing... it's rampant currently. The accusations of weaponizing the dept of justice after Bill Barr assigned Durham to investigate the investigators. They found nothing criminal because there was nothing criminal to find.

Mueller did. Trump, Barr, and congress swept it under the rug and lied about the report weeks prior to it being released. Jack Smith has. Trump has no power(Bill Barr and congress) to stop it this time. Instead, his bootlickers in the house are doing everything they can to distract. They want him to be elected again so they will never have to face justice themselves for conspiracy to defraud the United States regarding the BIG lie.

Look over there... anywhere... other than at Trump.

None of that is relevant to Trump's espionage and obstruction of justice violations. None of it. Stay focused will ya?

2. Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents.

3. The classified documents TRUMP stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. The unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military, and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods.

4. At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents.

5. The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP’s presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club—including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room.6. On two occasions in 2021, TRUMP showed classified documents to others, as follows:

3a. In July 2021, at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey(“The Bedminster Club”), during an audio-recorded meeting with a writer, a publisher, and two members of his staff, none of whom possessed a security clearance, TRUMP showed and described a “plan of attack” that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was “highly confidential” and “secret.” TRUMP also said, “as president I could have declassified it,” and, “Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”

3b. In August or September 2021, at The Bedminster Club, TRUMP showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close.

7. On March 30, 2022, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”) opened a criminal investigation into the unlawful retention of classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club. A federal grand jury investigation began the next month. The grand jury issued a subpoena requiring TRUMP to turn over all documents with classification markings. TRUMP endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigations and conceal his continued retention of classified documents by, among other things: a. suggesting that his attorney falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the grand jury subpoena; b. directing defendant WALTINE NAUTA to move boxes of documents to conceal them from TRUMP’s attorney, the FBI, and the grand jury; c. suggesting that his attorney hide or destroy documents called for by the grand jury subpoena; d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the grand jury subpoena, while claiming that he was cooperating fully; and e. causing a certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury falsely representing that all documents called for by the grand jury subpoena had been produced—while knowing that, in fact, not all such documents had been produced...

Your nonsense is not gonna work parrot...

Let's read the indictment... Trump's a traitor. Sharing the most highly sensitive information. Remember what he said about Hillary's case of mishandling with a couple of classified docs?

Trump stole, lied, and intentionally concealed far more sensitive information...knowingly.

The irony?

Indeed.

Old news parrot... nothing found criminal... waste of taxpayer dollars... example of using the government and justice department to punish one's political rivals(witch hunt).

You're not a friend of mine.

of course it appears they’re working hard to discredit it before seeing the documents in question. — NOS4A2

Mirror, mirror...

all was found to be false and unjust — NOS4A2

Bullshit...

Note how the parrot has not discussed the unsealed indictment...

The parrot forgets to mention that the people making the claims cannot seem to find this informant now...

It's all distraction... designed...

It looks like you’re misinformed. — NOS4A2

What's that mean?

See what I mean? NOSSY doesn't fully understand (non-literal) context...

Squawk!!!... NOSSY want a cracker...

No worries... :wink:

I edited after you read... I'd guess. Originally, it said just that... "Hunter"...

There's a new investigation into Hunter now... the sophisticated electronic parrot plagiarizer is confused...

despite what creativesoul says. — NOS4A2

What's that mean NOSBOT????????

Whatever you parrot, NOSBOT... whatever you parrot...

Toldja so...

What???

I'm just telling you what NOSBOT is going to answer....

Not sure how you arrived at the belief that you're privy to my thoughts about why and/or how Trump lost.

Hunter...

The glorified sophisticated plagiarizer will echo all the bullshit... The intelligences services were charged with suppressing the info. The charge is false. Hunter was investigated by Trump's own administration... nothing found worth further investigation.

The government has records, I would hope, of classified information aside from the actual documents marked and recorded as such. If that is the case, then a careful review of the recovered records would be easy enough to determine which documents he took and did something with and/or remain missing...

NOS is a chatbot

In short, we would need to arrive at a minimum criterion for what counts as consciousness, such that any and all candidates under consideration which meet that minimum criterion could be sensibly called "conscious"...
— creativesoul

...So we need a definition, or theory, to guide what we are looking for. And then the stuff we find when looking constitutes evidence. Is that right? — bert1

Yes, but I want to be on record as stating that it's a nuanced affirmation, to put it very mildly.

"Consciousness" is a concept/notion/idea/name/tool that, depending on the user, may or may not be being used in order to pick out something(s) to the exclusion of all else.

I would think that prior to looking for something one would need to be able to know what they're looking for. Consciousness, however, is a term that is fraught with all sorts of issues and confusion, not the least of which is the utter lack of clear and concise delineation/definition/identity. Hence, I tend to think it best if a slightly different tack is taken. It seems to me that consciousness is what we've historically attributed to creatures capable of having meaningful experience(s). This is one way of beginning to delineate the scope.

If all creatures capable of having meaningful experiences count as conscious creatures, then if we can glean knowledge regarding what counts as having meaningful experience, and more importantly, what it takes in order to have them, then we can glean knowledge about what it takes in order to be and or become a conscious creature in the relevant sense.

However, it becomes readily apparent that the entire project will hinge directly upon a bare minimum criterion regarding what exactly counts as having a meaningful experience.

So to take your "The ability to draw meaningful correlations between different things," I think is your definition/concept/theory of consciousness. And then if something, say ChatGPT, appears to draw meaningful correlations between things, then that is evidence that it is conscious. Am I following you? — bert1

Drawing meaningful correlations is not the same thing as appearing to. Yes, the ability to draw meaningful correlations between different things amounts to one step on the reductive ladder towards the bare minimum(irreducible) criterion regarding what it takes to have meaningful experiences, and thus what it takes in order to be conscious in the relevant sense of the term.

There's a bit more reduction to go...

Thank you for trying to tackle the question directly. — bert1

You're welcome, but there's no need to thank me. I'm just like that.

It scares me when you say things that I agree with...

:wink:

To answer the question posed in the thread title directly...

What constitutes evidence of consciousness?

(Very roughly)The ability to draw meaningful correlations between different things.

The biological machinery includes a complex central nervous system, replete with sensory organs and a brain. That much is clear because when those components are damaged enough, the result is a human that is alive, but no longer capable of having meaningful conscious experiences that they once did.

The conclusion regarding consciousness in humans and rocks...

Some humans no longer have what it takes, and rocks never did.

...with consciousness, what do we use to determine what to admit as evidence? — bert1

Well, we could always start by carefully analyzing known conscious creatures as a means for determining what it is about them, specifically, that causes them to have meaningful conscious experiences. Makes perfect sense to me for us to start by looking at ourselves...

Then we could also look at examples of humans who are still alive, but not conscious in the sense we're discussing here, and take note of the differences.

The evidence clearly shows that severe brain trauma affects/effects human consciousness. If it's severe enough, there's evidence(or lack thereof) that clearly leads us to conclude that the subject under consideration no longer has the same sort of meaningful conscious experiences that we typically generalize under "consciousness".

The obvious take away is that - at the very least - there's certain biological machinery required.

What are we going to look for as evidence of consciousness in (a) a rock, and (b) a human? — bert1

Well generally speaking...

We could look for some common denominator or set thereof between humans and rocks, such that it is solely by virtue of having those commonalities(whatever they may be) that both rocks and humans can be rightly called "conscious entities".

In short, we would need to arrive at a minimum criterion for what counts as consciousness, such that any and all candidates under consideration which meet that minimum criterion could be sensibly called "conscious"...

Sigh...

The intellectual poverty in comparing government finances to private business...

It's a shame that many, if not most, Americans have been brainwashed into believing that that's a good analogy.

So your refutation is that once there was peak of deflation during the financial crisis? Weak. — ssu

It's never a good sign when one supplants valid objection with attacking a strawman. It's not the only time that the government provided stimulus(printed money) and no inflation followed.

However...

...even if it were, which it's not...

...that single example would serve as more than adequate prima facie empirical evidence(proof even) that inflation is not caused by the government printing money.

Why would they be a terrible investment? — ssu

Because of the clearly demonstrable quantifiable harm done to the consumer and less fortunate members of society.

The market is supposed to be a vehicle to provide goods and services to the members of society. Increasing cost is a disservice. It's a complex way for the poorest and less fortunate to transfer what little they have into the pockets of those who already have the most...

It's really about just who can put this inflation into motion.... — ssu

Whomever wants to increase profit margin and can get away with raising prices.

I find it odd that you keep blaming inflation on the government printing more money, while offering a graph that clearly disputes that...

Look at 2009...

...meaning is the difference that makes a difference.... — apokrisis

Indeed.

Hey Apo!

We both know our positions differ in remarkable ways. But the quote above shows the most important similarity between our views. The pivotal role of meaning...

All experience is meaningful to the creature having the experience... after-all.

What is it like to be a bat?

It is the sum total of meaningful correlations drawn between different things by the bat.