This is really priceless. Priceless

The callers had a standard text they read in Arabic that went something like this: “How are you? Is everything okay? This is the Israeli military. We need to bomb your home and we are making every effort to minimize casualties. Please make sure that no one is nearby since in five minutes we will attack.” The line would then go dead. — Jerusalem Post

In my opinion, this is terrorizing.

This in 2021. They seem to have abandoned giving warnings now.

This is the Israeli military. We need to bomb your home

It is to our shame we did not pay attention to this madness and try to stop it ten, twenty years ago...crazy

This is the Israeli military. We need to bomb your home

I had no idea. I did not know. Some people portrayed this as a good thing, the 'roof knock'
Fool that I was.

There are three sides to the "Hospital Attack" story.

• We do not know who caused the attack
• It was a misfired Hamas rocket
• It was an Israeli missile

These different and mutually exclusive positions.

Channel 4, for example, an anti-government channel, in my opinion, has this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pAuDA6IOwc

CNN and other media outlets, on the other hand, accept the Israeli version of the story.

Sides are taken, but so many years down the road, no one has done enough to for the civilians.
I hope the nations of the world can do something to solve this conflict, new media tends to ignore civilian suffering: Yemen, Sudan, these are all ongoing disasters right now. Somethings wrong.
Look at the headlines:

While searching for "Hellfire Missile" I found that Israel has an air to surface missile with a '20 metre kill radius'. Apparently the warhead survives the explosion.

Designed for defeating the enemy in open areas, moving vehicles as well as concealed or structure protected enemy.Warhead Versions:

Steel ball blast fragmentation warhead with kill radius of more than 20 meters
Anti-Structure Warhead with 20 cm concrete penetration capability
Fuze Versions:

On impact
Delayed detonation
Proximity detonation — IAI

https://www.iai.co.il/p/sledgehammer

It is surmised that the IDF use 'Sledgehammer' missiles for roof knocking. These are low-payload, high accuracy missiles with proximity detonation capability. This means they can detonate above the roof top, further limiting danger to civilians. Once it is confirmed that residents have vacated a building, the IAF claims that this then clears the fighter for attack and the target is destroyed. The IAF claims that they select the appropriate munitions for a strike to ensure that they achieve the desired effect with minimal damage to untargeted structures and people. This means that they can use bombs with payloads as small as 285lbs for precision strikes. Such claims, however, often do not mitigate civilian harm. Many of these claims are as contested as they are defended. — ReliefWeb

↪FreeEmotion You're right. The position of Israeli hardliners has always been the same, and it has always been quite extreme by normal standards. They've rarely deviated from their course, and when that threatened to happen under Rabin they offed him. — Tzeentch

There is little doubt that the current Israeli government is taking a hard liners stand. There is nothing wrong with being a hard-liner. Was Sir Winston Churchill a hardliner? Some Israelis and former Israeli Prime Minister - at least one - calls out this right wing government. Many previous Israeli governments have ordered attacks on Gaza, I am sure. There have been swings of the pendulum.

I mentioned the Oslo accords: have a look at what the Prime Minster at that time said:

We say to you today in a loud and a clear voice: Enough of blood and tears. Enough. We
have no desire for revenge. We harbor no hatred towards you. We, like you, are people
people who want to build a home, to plant a tree, to love, to live side by side with you in
dignity, in empathy, as human beings, as free men. We are today giving peace a chance, and
saying again to you: Enough. Let us pray that a day will come when we all will say: Farewell
to the arms.
We wish to open a new chapter in the sad book of our lives together a chapter of mutual
recognition, of good neighborliness, of mutual respect, of understanding. We hope to
embark on a new era in the history of the Middle East. Today, here in Washington, at the
White House, we will begin a new reckoning in relations between peoples, between parents
tired of war, between children who will not know war. — Israeli PM Rabin, 1993

He ends quoting the scriptures

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;
A time to kill, and a time to heal;
A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to love, and a time to hate;
A time of war, and a time of peace.'
Ladies and Gentlemen, the time for peace has come.

It is clear that the time for peace has not yet come. So the cycle continues.

I did a little searching about Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, first by watching his interview in 1978 that I posted a link to above. In another interview, he mentions his brother, and that thousands came to his funeral (Rabin was there, according to Mr. Netanyahu, and little did he know that Mr. Netanyahu would be attending Rabin's funeral.

Yani Netanyahu's fame was was in leading the raid in Entebbe to release hostages. He was the only Israeli armed personel killed when they were leaving the airport.

After the raid, the Israeli assault team returned to their aircraft and began loading the hostages. Ugandan soldiers shot at them in the process. The Israeli commandos returned fire, inflicting casualties on the Ugandans. During this brief but intense firefight, Ugandan soldiers fired from the airport control tower. At least five commandos were wounded, and the Israeli unit commander Yonatan Netanyahu was killed

Looking at Mr. Netanyahu, I feel I cannot blame him. He grew up in an environment whose very existence was based on the the the practice of creating artificial nations and destroying local demographics that the colonial powers were so hell bent on doing. Maybe they did not know better. Jewish people also had been squeezed out of many nations due to anti-antisemitism. In fact, the founder of Zionism it was a second option to integration into the societies they lived in. He wanted Jews to integrate into the societies he lived in.

Benzion Netanyahu (Hebrew: בֶּנְצִיּוֹן נְתַנְיָהוּ, IPA: [bentsiˈjon netaˈnjahu]; born Benzion Mileikowsky; March 25, 1910 – April 30, 2012)[2][3] was an Israeli encyclopedist, historian, and medievalist. He served as a professor of history at Cornell University. A scholar of Judaic history, he was also an activist in the Revisionist Zionism movement, who lobbied in the United States to support the creation of the Jewish state. His field of expertise was the history of the Jews in Spain. He was an editor of the Hebrew Encyclopedia and assistant to Benjamin Azkin, Ze'ev Jabotinsky's personal secretary. — Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzion_Netanyahu

Revisionist Zionism was based on a vision of "political Zionism", which[clarification needed] Jabotinsky regarded as following the legacy of Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern political Zionism. His main demand was the creation of Greater Israel on both sides of the Jordan River, and was against partitioning Palestine with the Arabs, such as suggested by the Peel Commission.

There is a nice map, which shows the Biblical Israel, very attractive to some Christians and some Jews alike, I guess.

By siding with Israel's hardliners the US is bringing Israel closer to the cliff and burning bridges in the process, but few people seem to realize this. — Tzeentch

Have a look at the videos on the Oslo Accords, and how far they have progressed from there!

Also see a 1978 video of Benjamin Nettan. "Do you believe the Palestinians have a right to a separate state?" No.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1c-DSZ_l9Q

Transcript

4:19
nobody wants peace more than Israel but
4:23
the stumbling block to the road for
4:24
peace is this demand for a PLO state
4:27
which will mean war war which will mean
4:29
more violence in the Middle East and I
4:31
think I sincerely believe if this demand
4:33
is abandoned we can have real and
4:35
genuine peace...


6:54
these are the ones who say they are part
6:56
of the Arab nation these are the ones
6:57
who say they already have a Palestinian
6:58
state there is no right to establish a
7:01
second one on my doorstep which will
7:03
threaten my existence there is no right

... — Transcript

Fyi AP seems to be confirming now, based on the evidence available to them, that it was most likely a Hamas rocket. — flannel jesus

I am not attempting to convince anybody about who is responsible for the explosion in the hospital parking lot, by the way have any of the investigators/experts identified this as a hospital parking lot, not a hospital?

It seems like a religion has sprung up around the Hospital attack story. All I can ask is that everyone get as much information from the second hand reports put out by news outlets and decided for themselves.

Just a few things to point out, from the above report:

Israel’s assessment, backed by U.S. intelligence and President Joe Biden, also cited the lack of both a large crater and extensive structural damage that would be consistent with a bomb dropped by Israeli aircraft. — AP report

Other sites have stated that it could be an weapon that detonates in the air, leaving a small crater or maybe none at all.

The AP analyzed more than a dozen videos from the moments before, during and after the hospital explosion, as well as satellite imagery and photos. AP’s analysis shows that the rocket that broke up in the air was fired from within Palestinian territory, — AP

I will be looking at the videos:

and that the hospital explosion was most likely caused when part of that rocket crashed to the ground....

A lack of forensic evidence and the difficulty of gathering that material on the ground in the middle of a war means there is no definitive proof the break-up of the rocket and the explosion at the hospital are linked.

...
A small explosion is then seen on the ground in the distance, followed two seconds later by a much larger blast closer to the camera. The corner of the scroll at the bottom of the live broadcast reads 6:59 p.m. Gaza time. — AP

No definitive proof - AP

For comparison, 2019 missile strike, but this time a longer ranged missile possibly with a larger warhead?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47689684

American officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive information, said that multiple strands of early intelligence, including infrared satellite data, show a launch of a rocket or missile from Palestinian fighter positions within Gaza. They cautioned that the analysis was preliminary.

A senior Defense Department official said that, based on data collected by infrared sensors, the United States was “fairly confident” the launch did not come from Israeli forces. — NYT

Launched from Palestinian fighter positions, yes, and not from Israeli forces? I take it then that Israeli forces are not embedded in Palestinian fighter positions?

Lt. Col. Amnon Shefler, an Israeli military spokesman, said the calls to the hospital were part of a wider campaign to urge civilians to leave northern Gaza ahead of an expected Israeli invasion. Colonel Shefler said the hospital was not a target for the military. — NYT

The IDF confirms that calls were made to evacuate the hospital. I saw on Israeli commentator saying 'you mean the hospital under which Hamas stores weapons?'

This BBC report shows a video of a single projectile in the sky, breaking up and exploding.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

It also shows the hospital and the graveyard - right next to the hospital. In close proximity, next door, virtually. Surely this is not what they mean?

“I believe the US intelligence community likely has enough imagery, communications intercepts, and other data to determine where the projectile originated that stuck in the Al-Ahli al-Arabi hospital and what the original statements of people on the ground were as to what they believed happened,” said Mick Mulroy, a former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East and retired CIA officer.

“In addition, from the video released publicly, the explosion is consistent with a rocket that still had a lot of rocket fuel at the time of impact,” Mulroy added.
...
It might help a little bit with planning for potential ground clearance, and some of the signals intelligence collection capabilities could detect Hamas communications to help pinpoint hotspots of their activity. But the official noted that Hamas has been pretty smart about staying off communications – one of the reasons, sources say, the group was able to avoid Israeli detection during the planning of the October 7 attack in Israel. — CNN

The rocket explodes, leaves no fiery trail to the ground, but still has enough unburned fuel to cause an explosion on the ground?

Hamas has been 'pretty smart to stay of communications' - except to discuss failed rocket launches.
If two people discuss a rocket explosion in Arabic, does that mean anything? How do we know these are Hamas operatives?

I am not presenting any conclusive evidence either way. I am just pointing out that the reporting on this is confused, and some news outlets have drawn conclusions while others say they cannot draw conclusions. Maybe they have access to different experts and reporters, but that proves that their knowledge is incomplete.

Meanwhile, no-one is suggesting that the 4,000 plus deaths in Gaza are anything less than Israeli IDF attacks. Yet they want to defend a 200 to 450 deaths in a hospital parking lot. Very strange.

And yes, a misfired rocket did cause casualties earlier, read Wikipedia's rocket attacks on Israel page.

In November 2012 three relatives, including infant son, of a BBC journalist Jehad Mashhrawi was killed by what was initially attributed to IDF strike, with photo of Jehad holding his dead son becoming viral in world media, but a few months later UN attributed the strike to a rocket fired from Gaza.[179] On 25 June 2014 a child was killed by a misfired rocket.[180] On 28 July 2014 Hamas rockets exploded inside Gaza killing seven and damaging Al-Shati refugee camp and Al-Shifa Hospital.[181] On 8 May 2019 in a rare admission, Islamic Jihad confirmed that a Palestinian child was killed by their own misfired rocket.[182] In 2022 overall 16 people estimated were killed by rockets falling short in Gaza.[183] On 11 May 2023 a failed rocket killed four civilians in Beit Hanoun as out of 507 fired rockets 110 fell short in Gaza.[184] In October 2023 the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion was initially attributed to Israeli airstrike, until after independent evidence became available it was attributed to a misfired Hamas rocket.[185] — Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Total dead, 2001 to 2015: 33. Thirty three.

Note the final entry deliberately fails to mention that over 300 were killed in the last attack, as in stands in contrast to the others.

A series of missed opportunities and stubbornness. Pride can become an ethical problem. A series of missteps towards the beginning that moved each side to the right. — schopenhauer1

Thank you for the history.

The question that needs to be asked is: are the Israeli governments and the Palestinian governments acting in the best interests of its people, long term? These are in terms of social and political interests?

If the goal of Israel is to annex and control the Palestinian areas, and the goal of Hamas is to take control somehow over the entire land of Israel, sort of a Palestinian Nettanhayu -type far right government, then supporting one over the other is a matter of deciding whose cause is right. Human rights abuses abound, to be sure.

What we learn from history is the suppression of groups of people, if it succeeds, will lead to a lasting peace. Human rights? The entire history of the world can be described as a litany of human rights abuses, from one era to another. This is how history is made.

Psychology is not the place to look, as any psychological survey of terrorists will show random behavioral traits. The answer lies in sociology and in social psychology, in our gut irrational responses on a group, social, and tribal level. — magritte

Many a terrorist was once an ordinary human being. Unless you assume terrorists are born, then you have to assume that terrorists are created by the social environment, given that some of the population will have a tendency to accept violence as a means of solving their problems. It happens all over the world.

Israels' response is predictable, and not irrational as such, given that rationality has to be judged on the basis of what the actions aim to achieve.

The problem is that governments and groups, knowing that they are lighting a powder keg with a short fuse, then proceed to deliberately proceed, or deliberately risk letting it happen. These are intentions that are pretty clear. Some groups on each side want a solution based on their terms, and when these groups are in power, like Hamas, then you can expect them to push for it.

The end? Hamas for revenge in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel for revenge and to make up for the fact they did not prevent the attacks. — Manuel

Yes, what is annoying is that neither side wants to state that they are doing this for revenge. Public Relations, you know. We have a 'prison break' on one hand and 'Israel attempting to defend' on the other hand. Pretty harmless.

My impression is that, when people are cool and level headed, they get along perfectly fine. It's when the state gets involved in matters, removed from direct control by the people, that these problems tend to arise of get magnified. — Manuel

Well then the state must be having different goals from that of the people, what could these be? Dare I suggest they are self-serving?

And yes, I think if this continues, others will get involved, Hezbollah and maybe Iran. It's a spine-chilling situation to find yourself in. — Manuel

I find it very depressing. The Israeli and Hamas governments have been very bad at PR, but good at killing civilians on the other side. To what end? If this was a direct democracy, what would have hapenned?

But also the Israeli strategy of dealing with the insurgency by "mowing the lawn", simply having these military every now and then to decrease the ability of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever simply creates this low intensity conflict, which once a while blows up like it has now. — ssu

Apparently they have given up this strategy, they are going to eliminate Hamas. Very good, but not a word about the other terrorists organizations, will the let them be, and have them take over, or provide some fresh grass for moving?

For now, I am going to assume it was an attack by Israel. Hitting the parking could be a 'warning' strike since the hospital had been asked to evaluate. I can excuse them for avoiding the hospital and hitting a parking lot at night, they may not have known that there were people there, as I said, they were warned.

To my untrained eye, it looks like an explosion happened in the air, burning the cars evenly for some radius.

In any case, it does not excuse the bombing of buildings and cutting off supplies, which is deliberate, and will cause possibly more painful deaths.

The Tweet or "X" in full, in case you don't want to click.

@HananyaNaftali
Earlier today I shared a report that was published on
@reuters
about the bombing at the hospital in Gaza which falsely stated Israel struck the hospital. I mistakenly shared this information in a since deleted post in which I referenced Hamas’ routine use of hospitals to store weapons caches and conduct terrorist activity. I apologize for this error.

As the IDF does not bomb hospitals, I assumed Israel was targeting one of the Hamas bases in Gaza.

It is known that Hamas is using civilians as human shields, it is a war crime and a crime against humanity. This should be the focus.
2:58 AM · Oct 18, 2023
·
2.3M Views — X

Hamas should be afraid, very very afraid, because they are dealing with an irrational, incompetent bunch of .. what did former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert call them...no disrespect here

I truly feel sorry for the people of Israel. They, too should be afraid.

If the government of Israel did its job of protecting you, none of this would have happened.

Your government is playing you like a fiddle.

I am beginning to feel the need to pray for Israel now.

Deleted repeated post. I really like that 'President Biden's Demands' Says a lot.

"In light of the overwhelming and vital American support for the war effort and in light of US President Biden's demand for basic humanitarian aid, the reduced cabinet unanimously decided:

1 - Israel will not allow any humanitarian aid from its territory to the Gaza Strip as long as our abductees are not returned.

2 - Israel demands the Red Cross visits to our abductees and is working to mobilize extensive international support for this demand.

3 - In light of President Biden's demand, Israel will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population located in the southern Gaza Strip or moving there, and as long as these supplies do not reach Hamas. Any supplies that reach Hamas will be thwarted." — Manuel

Am I wrong in suggesting that, from the side of the Israeli citizen, and especially the relatives of the hostages, the following would be a better course of action? It is really hard to tell which actions are smarter than others simply because there are too many mistakes being made so far.

Suggested press release:

1. Temporary ceasefire with immediate release of hostages to the Red Cross, will be followed by humanitarian aid convoy.

(then we will end the ceasefire and kill all Hamas members including civilian Minister of Economic Affairs etc, later. But don't put that in the press release)

2. Visit to abductees? This is not a tour of the Hollywood for God's sake, you want the Red Cross to see them alive, and then leave them, amidst heavy bombing? Where would these visits take place? On location? Maybe the Gaza hospital since either it has been bombed or will not be bombed by Israel.

3.President Biden's demand? Not based on humanitarian reasons that Israel, as a modern nation, affords? President Biden's "demand"

"as long as these supplies do not reach Hamas. Any supplies that reach Hamas will be thwarted"

No offence, but this strikes me as absolutely insane. How on earth is one to say these supplies will not reach Hamas?

What does this all mean? It all sounds like the nature of the entire Israeli military approach seems to be, as I made up my mind years ago is very 'heavy handed'. It has all the hallmarks of police brutality, in short.

My impressions is these people are dangerously limited in their thinking, which is not good for anyone.

Or something got lost in the translation.

What is interesting is how different news sites report the event. In the absence of conclusive evidence, it is quite an indication of which side they are on, and what effect they want to achieve.

Israel-Hamas war updates: Hundreds killed in Gaza hospital ‘massacre’ - Al Jazeera

Israel-Hamas war: At least 500 people killed in hospital bombing in Gaza, Palestinian officials claim - Sky News

In deadly day for Gaza, hospital strike kills hundreds - Reuters

Hundreds likely dead in Gaza hospital blast, as Israeli blockade cripples medical response -CNN

'They're still collecting the dead': Panic and grief after Gaza hospital blast - BBC


The evidence here, the actual newspaper titles, speak volumes. Notice the words 'strike', 'attack', 'blast', different words suggestive of a missile or bomb strike, and a bomb planted at the site. The attempt to manipulate this one event using different interpretations is a telling indication that much propaganda is in the air. In any case, each group will choose to interpret the event according to their biases, and this helps.

If it is a non-Israeli rocket, then it would only make sense for whoever it was to fire another one at Israel.

Let's see. Could it be a guided rocket that was hijacked and made to change course?

If it hit dead center then it may make the case for a deliberate attack?

Non -guided Hamas rockets have done a pretty good job of avoiding hospitals, and in any case have a 'small' warhead that damages roofs.

Oh and this, reported on RT

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Neranyahu has claimed that “a barrage of rockets was fired by terrorists in Gaza, passing in close proximity” to the building at the time it was hit. He cited military intelligence as indicating that Islamic Jihad, one of the militant groups operating in Gaza, was behind the purported launch

And on CNN:

“An analysis of IDF operational systems indicates that a barrage of rockets was fired by terrorists in Gaza, passing in close proximity to the Al Ahli hospital in Gaza at the time it was hit,” IDF posted to its Telegram account. — CNN

That seems a huge stretch, and is very telling. This was no barrage. If it was one rocket, the warhead was no large enough to create such damage. If rockets were fired in close proximity it would be even more unlikely to hit something close by. Such a clumsy explanation is another piece of circumstantial evidence that could be used to bring the case the Israeli government is lying.

Fact check this:

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/deconstructing-a-lie-how-israel-bombed-al-ahli-hospital-then-changed-its-story-twice/

Piers Morgan Uncensored: Interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jBgGY2Ww9Q

A reminder our viewers that public debate is about managing perceptions, not about being on the right side. Calm discussions don't make for good TV either.

The Times of Israel Opinion Piece on Harvard leaderships statement

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-plea-for-moral-clarity-and-leadership-at-harvard/

The Statement in question.

https://www.harvard.edu/president/news/2023/our-choices/

Psychology Today is a fake science journal written by journalists whose opinions are as whimsical as the requests of their editors. Where are their references to alleged systematic analysis to unitary retaliatory approach? Perhaps personal surveys of news clippings from Pravda? — magritte

What PT says makes sense to me.

The question to ask is, is this mass hysteria or mass schizophrenia, or is is there a cause - by cause I mean a reason, right or wrong - for their actions?

In fact, the few studies that have directly examined the mental status of captured terrorists have failed to disclose significant signs of intellectual impairment or serious mental disorder. What these individuals do show is a heightened ability to rationalize and compartmentalize their violent motives and activities, believing that these are necessary actions in fighting for their cause: Evil transformed into nobility. But ideology is not psychopathology, so these individuals fully know what they’re doing and willfully, indeed enthusiastically, do it. — Psychology Today

Apparently all you need is a cause. There are enough causes today, given that human beings are what they are. Anyone attacks a community, for example, here the Israelis, and some of them, now the people in power, but someone at any rate, will respond with force. You cannot do anything about the demographics of a society, there are always those, and you will find them among your friends and relatives, who see responding with violence as a right thing to do. I do not see the other side as any different.

The function of the government is to keep the peace, and stop violence from breaking out. To stop anything that may snowball into a armed conflict before it is too late. It is as important as clean water and food and electricity.

I know of people who have joined the armed forces. I have spoken to people who support armed forces, and army personnel have spoken to terrorist supporters. (not in the this region, though). Did they join to commit atrocities? Were they ordered to? Did their compatriots attack people while they did nothing? How do you know the group you join is not going to violate human rights either individually or collectively?

I remember what it was like when I was a young man. I thought nothing could ever hurt me, and even if it did, it was worth it. One does not think about the legitimacy of the cause, or more importantly, what orders you will be given, will they be 'legal' orders or not? It is all the glory of war. Of course the Hamas terrorists knew they will be killing civilians. All I am saying is that in any society there are people willing to go this far. I have seen this. Stop them before they start.

What these individuals do show is a heightened ability to rationalize and compartmentalize their violent motives and activities, believing that these are necessary actions in fighting for their cause:

Plenty of causes out there. Remove the causes.

I do not think Iran will get directly involved. The Iran - Iraq war was started by Iraq, and Iraq has too much to lose. Iran can channel their efforts through Hezbollah, though.

Who is Hezbello

What I'm reading is that the biggest inhibitor to Hezbollah's involvement is that Lebanon is already totally economically — Wayfarer

Looks like you are right. I had no idea that they were facing opposition in Lebanon. They have to tread very carefully here.

Military experience gained from fighting in Syria’s civil war and decades of clashes with Israel has strengthened the Iran-backed group, but politically, its clout among Lebanon’s populace may be waning. — CFR

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hezbollah

. You can't campaign on strength and then deliver the worst attacks in decades. And unlike Bush during 9/11, this is clearly the fruit of Netanyahu's own policies as he's had ample time to shape Israeli security policy. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I think that is an accurate description of the situation however going back to causes, this is the fruit of failure in conflict resolution. Is this more difficult than splitting the atom, or landing on the moon? Support for Israel does not mean support for any government for the policies of any one government. Other Israeli governments have shown themselves to approach the situation differently. Peaceful, sensible governments should be supported. It makes no sense to antagonize armed terrorists. There are more 'peaceful', ( though illegal ) methods of dealing with them. So there are options. The children will be safe. Maybe.

It is difficult to accurately describe both camps as 'Israelis' and 'Palestinians'. There are different perspectives on each side. I hope that I make specific references to, for example, the current Hamas military wing and its leadership, and the current Netanyahu government, whose faults are listed above . This is because they are not all the same, there are different perspective, personalities and opinions on each side. Anti - Zionists. Pro-Zionist Palestians. See here: (we don't know the motivation, but here it is)

On the willingness of Sheikh As'ad Shukair of Acre (a senior clergyman and oppositionist, father of the future PLO chairman Ahmad Shukairy) to write pro-Zionist articles, see his letter to Kalvariski, 15 January, 1925, CZA, S25 file 517. The Board of Deputies’ intelligence files are kept at the CZA, Division L4 (as well as Z4) and include reports from throughout the country, especially about remarks made at rallies of the national organizations.

Scanning the online newspapers and news sites out there, it seems that not everyone has the mind and language of an 'animal', I think we can all agree. I have been very impressed and inspired by the sheer humanity of some of these people. We have to realize they are not all the same. Maybe the respective governments should cage (or tame) whoever the 'animals' are, and let the rest live free.

For example, a Rabbi in Montreal, 3 days ago: (we must live in peace etc, anti-Zionist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8queaGlpm8A&t=17s

Israeli armed forces: (search term "israeli pilot and bomb civilians")

'Every civilian casualty is tragic': Israeli pilot on Gaza ...

Sky News
https://news.sky.com › story › every-civilian-casualty-...
28-05-2021 — An Israeli fighter pilot who operated against Palestinian militants in Gaza this month has said all civilian deaths in the conflict were tragic ...

27 Israeli Reserve Pilots Say They Refuse to Bomb Civilians

The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › 2003/09/25 › world › 27-isra...
25-09-2003 — Twenty-seven reserve pilots in Israeli Air Force present signed petition to air force head Maj Gen Dan Halutz, saying they will not take ...

The myth of Israel's 'most moral army'

Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com › opinions › 2023/10/16 › t...
13 hours ago — ... civilians. In other words, Israeli pilots, like Etting, know that they kill children when dropping massive bombs on city centres, but since ...

Civilians trapped in Gaza can't escape Israel's siege

CNBC
https://www.cnbc.com › 2023/10/13 › civilians-trapped-i...
3 days ago — Israel on Monday ordered a total siege of Gaza, cutting off the water, food and electricity for its 2.2 million residents, which is a ...

Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions

The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com › world › sep › israel
24-09-2003 — A group of Israeli airforce pilots declared yesterday that they would refuse to fly missions which could endanger civilians in the West Bank ...

IDF bombed Gaza's high-rises to vent frustration: Israeli pilot

Anadolu Ajansı
https://www.aa.com.tr › middle-east › idf-bombed-gaz...
22-05-2021 — Israel's bombardment of high-rise buildings in the Gaza Strip was a way to vent frustration caused by the failure to stop rocket fire from Gaza, ...

Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets | World news

The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com › world › aug › israel
05-08-2006 — Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.

The newspapers such as the Times of Israel, for example, are remarkably restrained and thoughtful after these terrible atrocities have been committed. Even the the Hamas spokesperson tacitly acknowledges the sheer horror of these acts "We do not kill civilians" etc . If it was such a good thing, how is it you are not proud to proclaim it, then?

Middle East and Africa | An interview with Moussa Abu Marzouk
A Hamas leader refuses to admit his group planned to kill civilians — The Economist

We all have a thread of common humanity, thought for some it flickers, for some it has been snuffed out.

Repeat post deleted.

How about a dose of Psychology Today?

The standard response of antiterrorism units throughout the world has consisted of a surgical version of “shock and awe.” After a terrorist act occurs, find out who and where the perpetrators are, hit them soon, hit them hard, and thereby teach a lesson to any other miscreants who may be thinking of hatching and executing similar plots. However, systematic analysis shows that this unitary retaliatory approach to terrorism frequently not only fails to deter and discourage it but may in fact only perpetuate endless cycles of retribution.

Iran has used Hamas to set the trap and Israel must take the bait in Gaza. — 180 Proof

That looks like the plan to me but very cold-blooded, don't you think?

I am against any loss of life on any side (civilian or otherwise).

The statement by the Chinese government very closely matched my sentiments. You can't get much further from this than China.

In a brief statement Sunday, China’s Foreign Ministry called on “relevant parties to remain calm, exercise restraint and immediately end the hostilities.” It repeated Beijing’s support for a “two-state solution” to establish an independent State of Palestine as a way out of the conflict.

My guess is that everything is going according to Hamas' plan. They knew Israel would react with overwhelming force and hoped that would create a new humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian civilians. Name one thing Hamas has done to help children or civilians in the Gaza Strip since they took power 15 years ago — GRWelsh

It does look like that. Everything is going according to the plans of Hamas, and also the plans of the Nettanyahu government, which a former Prime Minster of Israel called 'thugs', right now, at least. It remains to be seen if the powers that be in Israel allowed this to happen in order to be able to have a reason for destroying Hamas, but to me it seems likely. Everything is going according to the plans of Hamas, they may have done some things for the Palestinian civilians, but in their minds, they may feel this is the best thing they have ever done. Given what they are, one needs to look at who funded them and propped them up. A terrorist organization.

It may not be clear what side I am on, or whom I stand with: so here I am: I am on the side of the civilians. I am on the side of the citizens. Their existing governments have let them down, one by failing to protect, the other for organizing a terror attack that would further the ends of the their organization: to draw Israel into a conflict, and attempt to 'exhaust' Israel. Of course..um..people have to die,but it is all worth it for Hamas. I call it a failure in intelligence on both sides in this sense: these are unintelligent plans, and more plainly, stupid plans.

These are colossal failures of government in its truest sense.

What is the role of government anyway?

In all modern states, governmental functions have greatly expanded with the emergence of government as an active force in guiding social and economic development — Britannica

"active force in guiding social and economic development"

While that statement stands as the understatement of the century, in this context, judge for yourselves how the respective governments have fared.

To bear the brunt of this all are the citizens, the Israeli soldiers now asked to go and fight, again, because the last fight did not achieve their objectives. The Hamas terrorists - did not exist in a vacuum, but were created by the leadership, using the inexperience of the young Palestinian men (some reports say that their families are paid large sums of money from a 'Martyrs fund'). Hamas was, according to other sources, funded by the Israeli government at that time.

All this reminds me more and more of a game of chess. Pawns outnumber the elites, but pawns are to be sacrificed, all the same, faceless, soulless minions, discarded as soon as they are used in order that the Players may win the game. Who are the Players here? It is certainly not the pawns. It is certainly not the citizens. Another thing about pawns: they have no eyes.

It is all going to plan: Attacking Israeli civilians, getting Palestinians bombed. What of the plans of the innocent people of that country - men, women children? The plans of the ordinary human beings (not the extraordinary human beings in power)? Plans for a relaxing Saturday afternoon, a music festival. And on the other side, even simpler plans, plans for drinking water, electricity, free access to supplies without having to crawl through tunnels on hands and knees to bring sugar and refrigerators in.

The least we can do is refuse to be pawns in a manufactured conflict.

"What luck for rulers that men do not think"

Do you know who said that?

I have been trying to find information on the background to this situation. This entire situation has thrown the issue into the world spotlight, and everyone needs to get the most information on this.

The DW interview of former Prime Minister Olmert was quite revealing of some of the alternate views.

There is a documentary about the 2014 Gaza war, needs to be fact-checked, but I think some of it is true.

https://www.journeyman.tv/film/4486/when-saturday-came

I watched the entire video which is Dr. Norman Finkelstein’s address to the UCD Philosophy Society, University College Dublin, on the current state of the occupied territories. Tuesday 10 Feb 2015. ( Note the date.) His final solution is some sort of world-wide non-violent resistance. He says that there was an attempt to intimidate and break the will of the Palestinians in the Gaza strip by the bombing campaign.
I am in line with peaceful resistance, but that does not seem to be a realistic possibility at this stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmjoCBBHec8

From the transcript at about 21:12:

and of course the very last thing Netanyahu wants is a reasonable Hamas
that's a disaster for Israel because the moment Hamas starts to behave reasonably then
the pressure begins to be exerted on Israel well they're being reasonable why
don't you negotiate and end the conflict which is the one thing Israel doesn't
want not that it doesn't want to end the conflict it doesn't want to end the
occupation that's the problem and it needs an irrational
it needs a quote-unquote extremist Hamas in order to justify its gradual
absorption its incremental annexation of the occupied Palestinian territories

DW interview of former Israeli Prime Minister Olmertss video, posted earlier, has some very interesting things he says, which bear repeating. Here is the DW summary of the video:

"Netanyahu is history, he's done," Ehud Olmert told DW. He called the current Israeli leaders "violent, messianic thugs" and said that long term, Palestinians must be able to "exercise their right to self-determination."

Ehud Olmert DW Interview 10/11/2023October 11, 2023

Some may say that the terrorists who killed Israeli men women and children, these terrorists should be lined up against a wall and executed. Those who planned the attacks must be killed. Then what? Those who are members of the Hamas militant wing should also be executed because they belonged to Hamas military wing? Or is belonging to Hamas reason enough?

If we follow that reasoning, if an Israeli soldier willful shoots and kills a Palestinian father and child, what should be done to him and the organization to which he belongs?

If the Hamas terrorists had bombed the settlements from their motor-gliders, would that have made it more acceptable?

I am not advocating what 'some say' is correct, but if we are to reason, then we have to be willing to go where reason leads us. These questions must be asked.

Everyone attacking civilians should be brought to justice, that is my view.

I am against attacking civilians, and totally disappointed with governments that cannot protect their civilians and ensure peace between them and the other side. Unless it is totally out of their hands.

Not sure what you mean by that. I only asked if the PM should be taken at his word or he was making a speech.

Israel is the legitimate possessor of its land. — Hanover

I am very glad that this statement has been made.

Now, does this include Gaza and the West Bank?

Has anyone else noticed the shocking state of US diplomacy amidst all of this? — Tzeentch

State Department diplomats warned not to call for ceasefire, calm, end to violence — report — Times Of Israel

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/state-department-diplomats-warned-not-to-call-for-ceasefire-calm-end-to-violence-report/

Yeah we noticed...

Can anyone explain how

"Every Hamas member is a dead man," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said after fighters from the militant group killed 1,300 people in a brutal attack on Israel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67084141


and the Israelis are capturing Hamas fighters, terrorists? What's with the absurd rhetoric?

Does he mean Hamas the political wing, is he going to kill civilian members of the Hamas organization?

In any conflict, I give this question a lot of significance: "Who would you rather live under?" In this case, the answer is obvious: Israel. Nobody here would choose to be governed by Hamas, or Hezbollah, or Iran. How much significance should we give that when determining who to back in this conflict? — RogueAI

They are living under Israel, that is the point. Hamas has some support, so some may choose to live under its rule.

The question should be: how would you like to be treated, like an Israeli citizen in Israel or a Arab citizen of Israel?

I meant reduce civilian deaths and casualties. I recall this from a question and answer from session a military person, and the idea seemed to be that you have to trade off some civilian casualties to reduce your own military casualties. There are a few examples and this seems to be the case.

Here is a long and interesting article. I have not read it in its entirety, however it raises some important moral considerations of minimizing military casualties as well as civilian casualties. The attack on retreating Iraqi army columns troubled me when I first heard about it, and is mentioned here. That is another discussion, however I quote the part related to my statement:

The foundational principle of distinction, often heralded as the humanitarian pillar of the
laws of war, grants immunity to civilians. Together, the two principles sum up the tradeoff that the law seeks to induce—sacrifi cing the lives of soldiers to protect the lives of civilians.

https://academic.oup.com/jla/article-pdf/2/1/115/23562579/2-1-115.pdf

It isn't that human intelligence is insufficient to come up with an agreeable peace plan. The problem (in many cases) is that people have interests which may be contrary to other people's interests, and those differences prevent agreement on peace plans. — BC

This is what I mean: any sufficient intelligence could overcome the settling of contrary interests. I think Israel is in a better position to enforce a stalemate or status quo. I do not think peace is an option, given the tendency of extremists to hold positions of power and the foreign machinations that typically go on. Like Europe, the region has to grow up, it took too world wars for Europe to achieve a peace-stalemate but even then we have the Russia - Ukraine conflict. War needs to go out of style, like gun duels, and the compulsory education of the watching thousands of people die on TV might help. The Japanese nation moved from war to 'peace memorials' and 'self defense force', the Germans had to 'remake themselves'.

Maybe war is chemotherapy for the soul. The desire for war is the cancer.

The question remains, if violence is not justified, if violence is eliminated, non-violent means would have to be used, which means that psychological warfare, mind control, false flag operations, bribery, all these are on the table. The argument will then move to which goals are morally justifiable, and in a war of ideas (only) something could be leisurely hammered out over tea, or games a few rounds of golf.

n my view, the biggest threat to Israel is if it were to become totally estranged and politically isolated from its regional neighbors. With this plan, it is coursing directly towards such a situation. — Tzeentch

That looks like the game plan, to 'exhaust Israel' and then demand some concessions.

For the record, I do not agree with the use of violence to solve problems, I believe the human intellect is great enough to devise a plan, not only to circumvent high tech border devices, but to come up with a peace plan that all agree on. I believe the Palestinians should have chosen the peaceful route, with Palestinian statehood (non-violent), but they cannot control the shifting positions of the opposing camp.

I also do not agree with interference of big powers in regional affairs, which has been a driver for this conflict actually, from the beginning. Israel did not create itself out of nothing. It was created by the powers that be, and then sustained by them, and the conflict has been intelligently managed by surrounding nations and the US, just look at the results.

It will have to be one heck of an intellect to have achieved peace in this age old conflict.

Did your know Albert Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel? He refused.
Could he have done something?

Albert Einstein, a Jew, but not an Israeli citizen, was offered the presidency in 1952,[8] but turned it down, stating: "I am deeply moved by the offer from our State of Israel, and at once saddened and ashamed that I cannot accept it. — Wikipedia

Legally speaking, all Israel has to do is make a case for military necessity, and it doesn't even have to be a particularly good one. — Tzeentch

It is not a particularly good one since civilians were killed in what are now non-precision air strikes without warning. There was no military necessity there. They risked the lives of the hostages in the bombing, not sure what the case for that is.

Urban warfare does not necessitate the removal of civilians, and it is clear that Israel does not care too much, at least in this moment of rage.

If these people move, the move itself will kill some of them.

I guess Hamas could have asked the civilians of the Gaza border to move before attacking, that would have made it alright? Hamas gives Israeli towns 24 hours to move Eastwards. Also the Rave party must change its location again. How would that have been received?

Do what they must, but the honorable thing to do would be to fight street by street without heavy weapons and avoid deaths and injuries. Can the best trained army in the world do this, or are they not interested any more?

Just watched Pierce Morgan interviewing Ben Shapiro, Ben Shapiro seems to think that these terrorists are worse than everything else. The current hysteria has enabled a selective amnesia of sorts.

...
..so you blame Israel for Hamas' barbarity.

Ben Shapiro — Ben Shapiro on Twitter

The Zionist groups of Irgun and Lehi reverted to their 1937–1939 strategy of indiscriminate attacks by placing bombs and throwing grenades into crowded places such as bus stops, shopping centers and markets. — Wikipedia

So whom do we blame for these groups barbarity? Unfortunately barbarity is a feature of human society. Or maybe it is a bug.

The problem is that selective amnesia especially about history is not a basis for basing an opinion on. This is distortion of the truth.

The idea of revenge may be an useful motivator for the soldiers and militants alike, military objectives are different from revenge, although it may be factored in. The danger is that revenge may divert from military objectives and may be counter productive in the long run.

I maintain that there are crimes of abundance and there are crimes of hunger, and we have not only brought Gaza to the brink of starvation, we have brought it to a state of collapse. Always in the name of security. How much security did we get? Where will another round of revenge take us? — The Guardian

It would be very convenient for Israel to cast this as a war between two sovereign nations instead of between oppressor and oppressed (or at least a terrorist org. that apse I from that oppression) — Benkei

If you are talking about convenience, or opportunism, then it does make sense to say Iran was involved, although it makes sense to assume Iran had some role in some of the training at some point, given their public statements of support for Hams and the of covert operations on their soil. As for the campaign to "exhaust Israeli society" I leave you to judge probable that is. Certainly the Gaza is being exhausted as we speak.

Apparently nations are built on trade, that trade includes human lives as well, I think now.

From the Jerusalem Post:

Israel’s leaders are conspicuously absent, either remaining silent or too arrogant. Citizens, as well as diaspora Jews, have been raising funds, purchasing equipment, as well as food, clothing, and even weapons for the IDF and its soldiers. While this is commendable, why isn’t Israel ensuring that all of its soldiers’ families receive information about their whereabouts? Why are some soldiers scrounging for equipment? — Jerusalem Post

We learn

It may be that the practice of doing nothing but sending weapons to Ukraine has sent a message that the US will not directly intervene as in Iraq or Vietnam.

Israel could de-escalate somewhat. That's not what they're doing. — Manuel

There are lots of things both parties could do and should do. De-escalate, engage in a ceasefire, hostage negotiations, allow humanitarian corridors, but there is the fact that both sides are locked into a course of action that is dictated by their own goals and beliefs, or to be more precise, the powers that be in Israel, Hamas and Iran are committed to a certain set of goals and actions.

We can only watch and hope for new, stable, status quo.

Psychological Aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A Systematic Review
There is this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26511933/

He did not specify, but the Axis of Resistance refers to an alliance among Iran, Palestinian militant groups, Syria, the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah and other factions. — Reuters

From the above link.

All these governments are very careful how they use their military resources. They will talk, but only Israel has taken any action so far. As usual, the USA is providing ammunition. Iran has its proxies which have not really responded yet. Iran does not have to get directly involved as far as armed personnel. Syria is not going to give another excuse to be attacked.

The most likely outcome I think is for Israel to continue the status quo, however, its position is somewhat disadvantaged now, possibly due to their own errors or strategy whatever you may want to call it. Apparently Israel had the right to defend itself but not the ability. That is worrying.

The real win here for the Iranian side is the re-arrangement of the geopolitical balance in the region.

More strategy ahead:

Kobi Michael, a senior researcher at the Tel Aviv-based Institute for National Security Studies (INSS), says he believes that Iran aims to create “a reality of war in order to exhaust Israeli society, in order to exhaust the Israel Defense Forces.” — CNN

power struggle while people die

I find this perspective useful : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbSFJaFuWU0

He neglects to mention who funded Hamas, and the Hamas - Fatah war. No matter.

Short memories and short fuses.

Holy shit Israel Tells U.N. that all of North Gaza (over 1M people) has 24 Hours to Move South — Maw

Reuters is more accessible:

Reuters — Reuters

Seems like a lot of Israelis don't want to solve the problem - as long as they're happy, everyone else can go suck a lemon. Very disappointing mindset from them. — flannel jesus

Well, if we really agree that this is the end goal, it seems that the destruction of everyone else, except Israel, will be a reasonable strategy to follow. This could be a 'solution' to the problem. So, Iraq, Syria, Iran...

Seems like it's just unbridled hate on both sides. People suck. — flannel jesus

It is a question of how much hate by how many. Of course there are those who cheer attacks on civilians, I was really amazed by the people who do not show hate, on both sides, sorrow, fear, yes, but the fact that even one Israeli Newspaper prints that "Opinion | Israelis Must Maintain Their Humanity Even When Their Blood Boils" - Haaretz this is exemplary.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-11/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israelis-must-maintain-their-humanity-even-when-their-blood-boils/0000018b-1e18-d465-abbb-1ebe62c80000

Even the United States has expressed concern about cutting off Gaza from water and food supplies. Here is US Secretary of State, Blinken:

“Our humanity – the value that we place on human life and human dignity – that’s what makes us who we are. And we count them among our greatest strengths. “That’s why it’s so important to take every possible precaution to avoid harming civilians,” he said. — Jerusalem Post

Whoever is in control, it is not the people on both sides, it looks like, and I may be wrong, that it is a powerful minority engaged in manipulating events and opinions. It looks to me like vast sea of ordinary Israeli and Palestinian civilians are pawns and victims of the machinations of outside forces behind the scenes.

Hamas, for example, had some unlikely support:

helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) — The Intercept

That seems to be the cold blooded logic behind it.
Any reports about who funds Hamas and how? A recent PBD podcast mentioned an incentive system of some sort, for Hamas fighters.

So I search "Hamas incentive scheme" and come up with this.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-01/the-palestinian-incentive-program-for-killing-jews

This may the reason for 1,500 Hamas fighters to embark on a one-way suicide mission (for most of them). There is precedent for this.

The deeper you go, the worse it gets.

Those links support what many seem to be saying: the 'politics' has not worked, ethical considerations aside. A failure of intelligence - military intelligence or political?

There is a deeper question here in that is he depraved or simply not competent in leading Israel into the nation he wants it to be? Assuming that the security of Israel is his goal, then weren't there better ways to ensure it? At best he may be well - intentioned, but enveloped in a sort of a moral and intellectual fog.

Why not attempt to get back the hostages? That does not rule out later options? Judging by his words, he seems to be a man who feels rather than thinks.

A related, and equally clear trait is Netanyahu’sdifficulty in appreciating perspectives other than his own (Benziman, 1993). Netanyahu’sbooks and speeches presented no examples of attempts to understand or present perspectives other than his own
— ResearchGate (see link)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235330077_The_psychological_profile_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu_using_behavior_analysis

There is more, this is not good. Regardless of the situation, when you mix a personality like this, assuming this all accurate, into the equation, it might make it worse.