Poor Pieter, a modern day Galileo forced to endure to endure the TPF Inquisition—so heroic. :lol:

I was thinking what a shame it would be if your work did have the potential to help solve the worlds problems but never got off the ground because you’re such a terrible marketer.

There was a big controversy about a transwoman being allowed to compete a couple years ago. Last year the world surfing league tightened up the requirements though, to appease the anti-woke. All that over 1 surfer, and a longboarder at that.

Why not surfing? That is precisely the sort of question you need to answer. If you can propose boards for no reason at all, then why can't I propose surfing for no reason at all? If we've done away with reasons then what's the difference? — Leontiskos

A similarity in the two is that both a surfer and a board can decide to hang 10.

Deeper down the rabbit hole, and assuming the AI is not hallucinating, iron is far more available than the elements which are historically used to make the other primary pigments, namely yellow and blue. Iron is also more bioavailable to species for the job of carrying oxygen in the blood. Iron is reported to be better at the job though some species use copper and vanadium and those critters got blue blood.

Red/iron has organic weight?

I think you are just assuming this is a representation of how attracted we are to particular colours where it could be more to do with economics and the textile industry, or even religious symbolism. — I like sushi

I looked into it a bit further online just now and it appears that red, the first chromatic color mentioned in early writings across cultures, is strongly associated with blood. Given this correlation, it seems reasonable to speculate that if our blood were blue instead of red, for example, we might find ourselves more drawn to the color blue instead of red. Correlation is not causation of course, but this may indicate that red has more of an organic weight than a socially constructed weight.

I think it is a strawman to impute bad intentions here, as if "power stratification" is the desired end. — Leontiskos

Of course the belief that values are baked into reality in a particular order is not just about power stratification. It helps to uphold the order nevertheless. — praxis

Who needs enlightenment when you’ve got freshly popped popcorn and a good seat in the cave.

Plus you are placing an interest in egalitarianism over and above an interest in hierarchy - thereby creating a hierarchy. — Fire Ologist

The religious hierarchy is fixed. Good reason for the separation of church and state in a democracy.

My point is that the idea that hierarchical thinking is an evil bogeyman is a strawman. Anyone who admits that some values are higher than others is involved in hierarchical thinking. — Leontiskos

I’m not attacking a strawman or anything else. I’m merely voicing the opinion that the fundamental conflict is between hierarchical vertical thinking and egalitarian horizontal thinking.

It's just not about power stratification.

Of course the belief that values are baked into reality in a particular order is not just about power stratification. It helps to uphold the order nevertheless.

We can probably skip paleolithic economic theory and simply acknowledge the absence of a state and organized religion, yes? This, in my opinion, loosens the rigidity of the bishop's hierarchy of values because it indicates that their fixedness is not natural.

What do you have to say about the fact that for 95% of human history we lived in hunter-gatherer egalitarian societies—without a state and organized religion?

This flies in the face of what the bishop claims is natural.

If I remember correctly, they examined the earliest written documents in various languages and looked for color names. They found that across languages the order of appearance was the same—red always showing up before blue, for instance.

Ah! I see. Not sure how relevant that is but it is something at least. — I like sushi

It’s highly relevant.

Imagine two abstract paintings of similar composition side by side on a wall. One of the paintings is colored with large blocks of black, white, red, and a little yellow. The other painting is only colored with large blocks of light blue and dark blue.

We may like the blue painting more but our eye will be naturally drawn to the ‘boldly’ colored painting. Why would that be if we can look at paintings with a “view from nowhere.”

Another rabbit hole: constructed emotion theory and aesthetic experience.

I think it's fairly difficult to gainsay the Bishop on this point and claim that diversity, equity, or inclusion are absolute values. — Leontiskos

There is no gainsaying the Bishop on this point, and that’s half the point.

This inversion where one places secondary things into the first place is key to wokism.

Rather, the fixed hierarchy is key to power stratification that wokeness aims to reduce.

Really! What on Earth do they base that on? — I like sushi

Simply the order that the names for colors begin appearing in written language.

If you asked someone who didn’t yet have a name for blue what the color of the sky is they would likely say something like black. That doesn’t mean they can’t actually see blue.

White rabbit, blue dress, red queen…

I thought it interesting that it’s blue because according to the Berlin–Kay color term hierarchy theory blue is the latest primary color, or maybe to think of it differently, the least important primary.

According to the theory (or study?) colors were added in about the same order across languages. That order being:

Red
Green or yellow
Both green and yellow
Blue
Brown
Purple, pink, orange, gray, etc.

It may not indicate anything of course and be purely coincidental.

I wonder if that's the case of blue particularly or for most or all colors. I'll read more myself when I get time.

The idea that wokeness is heretical is intriguing, especially since, on the surface, both wokeness and religion share a common concern for supporting disadvantaged communities. I think the core of the issue lies in where their interests diverge: wokeness is fundamentally egalitarian, oriented horizontally in its social vision, while religion—particularly as articulated by figures like Bishop Robert Barron—is inherently hierarchical, oriented vertically.

In the video linked on the previous page, Bishop Barron refers to an 'objective hierarchy of value'—a structure he sees as embedded in the very fabric of reality. While that may be a compelling theological claim, it also implies a preference for maintaining a vertically structured society. And in any vertical structure, there is always a lower class.

We never just relate to things as things; they are also objects of projected meaning. — Tom Storm

In my experience, that projection can deepen the aesthetic. Whether or not that’s a vice or a virtue… I tend to think aesthetic experience is beneficial in nature.

Thank you for the clarification. I’ve read books and articles that are critical of trans activism, so I’m familiar with some of the negative aspects.

I understand how some people might feel that the negative impacts outweigh the positive gains made for the trans community, and therefore see resistance to trans activism as necessary. Personally, I don’t know enough to say that such resistance is essential, down to the last beer can anyway.

This leapfrogs the point — AmadeusD

Seriously, why not, as Fire put it, let Bud Light drinking be taken over?

But you could also see it (and I think you did) as a reaction to seeing wokism as the institution and the entrenched position, so entrenched it took over Bud Light drinking - on that case, it was activism and pushback. — Fire Ologist

Why not let Bud Light drinking be taken over? According to Anheuser-Busch most their market segment didn't care, and there are many other brands to choose from. Modelo Especial took the lead after the incident, if I remember correctly. It's good, at least compared to Bud Light.

The question for me then is if someone literally created a physical representation of a river that could be easily mistaken for a natural river then has that person produced Art? I guess for you you see no disparity other than in the creation (which does not fit into your definition of Art as an object). — I like sushi

I don't see a contradiction. I do a lot of painting and the activity is unquestionably aesthetic. Think of an art form like music, it can be an aesthetic experience for the performer and the audience simultaneously.

So, you literally call the appreciation of natural beauty that moves someone Art but the Art 'is in the eye of the beholder' rather than the beauty? — I like sushi

If art is a social construct then it's in the eye of beholder's, I suppose.

What I think is interesting is the idea that the recognition of art may trigger 'aesthetic mode' in a conditioned response/constructed emotion sort of way.

Is this to note an irrational position? — AmadeusD

It’s not irrational to reject another’s perspective, no.

What I am saying is, part of the woke methodology of reasoning seems to be avoiding anything on its face that appears anti-woke, and instead analyzing for sub-text, the dog-whistle, looking for virtue signaling or lack thereof. Maga types and conservatives and tradition-lovers, are objects of incredulity, whose behavior and speech can only be examined from the outside, not engaged with directly, (as we are engaged here so you are the exception).

See my conversation with Praxis - that is how it typically goes. — Fire Ologist

My aim, as I said, is to try avoiding useless bickering. My interest is something you brought up: looking into the character of the anti-woke.

You asked me if resistance is essential and I said that I wasn’t sure how to answer. I think it’s a good question, if extremely broad in scope. I tried to narrow the focus to the Bud Light fiasco and asked, if you regard it as a form of resistance, whether or not pushing back on that was essential. I didn’t think that I needed to say that the gesture was inessential.

Do you think the pushback was essential?

I looked for a possible outline (rather than a puzzle piece) on the Amazon sample and was disappointed. To my surprise I did find this nugget of wisdom in your preface though:

“If one cannot state a matter clearly enough so that even an intelligent twelve-year-old can understand it, one should remain within the cloistered walls of the university and laboratory until one gets a better grasp of one's subject matter.”

I wouldn’t say “even wokeness” - I would say clearly wokeness is a money maker. It is highly funded, lobbied, commercialized, packaged, tee-shirted, gas-masked, etc etc…. — Fire Ologist

I forgot to include anti-woke, which is also quite influential.

Interesting you said wokeness is resistance. Can you elaborate - is resistance essential, like awareness is? — Fire Ologist

If Bud Light’s gesture didn’t feel like a push there wouldn’t have been pushback.

Awareness is essential when navigating from a weak position. I understand the origins of “woke” was from an old song with a cautionary theme.

I’m not sure how to answer if resistance is essential. I think awareness is essential because it can be a matter of life or death, or some form of ruination, for those in a weak position.

If the Bud Light gesture is a form of resistance, is it essential to push back?

Enjoy yourself and your woke jokes! — Fire Ologist

Credit where credit is due–that's a real product. I photoshoped this however:



It illustrates a protest against political messages appearing on commercial products. Shoot'n up half woke and half anti-woke equally. Powerful message, right?

Anyway, another CT insight is that even resistance (wokeness or anti-wokeness) can be turned into a commodity in late stage capitalism.

I think that is not as meaningful as what Kid Rock said with a gun and a case of beer - which had more to do with people not wanting to make every single thing a political statement. — Fire Ologist

It was hard to decide on a product. This was the funniest:



And I mean no disrespect by not engaging more. I don’t want to trash the topic further with useless bickering.

Gee, I wonder why the political class loved woke-ism so much. — Tzeentch

The same reason the political class loves anti-wokeism.

I wrongly, according to you, brought in ‘homophobia’ — Fire Ologist

I said that I almost included it myself but didn't think it necessary to make the point. That's not saying you were wrong.

From the moment I heard about "woke" I thought about the way that Buddhists use the same metaphor of awakening. Yet with time the gulf between a Buddhist approach and a woke approach has proved remarkably wide, and I think the Buddhists leverage the metaphor much more consistently. The repudiatory nature of wokeness is inconsistent with the metaphor of waking from slumber. — Leontiskos

Awareness is the precondition for both rejection and liberation. You can’t reject what you don’t know exists, just like you can’t escape a cage you don’t realize you’re in.

I went to college too long ago I guess. — Fire Ologist

Rather, your unwillingness to to employ CT expresses your anti-wokeness.

Through the lens of wokeness - probably exactly like you did. Maybe add homophobia to the analysis. I don’t know if bud light is sold at Disneyworld, but if so, it was probably all part of a planned conspiratorial attack… — Fire Ologist

I almost added homonormativity but thought it superfluous to the point. Anyway, wokeness critiques visible social structures. You’re employing culture war rhetoric, not CT.

I don’t think it was unconscious what happened there, nor about any cultural/ideological status quo. That’s university-speak, or secular church speak. — Fire Ologist

I was attempting to adopt woke-speak or what the anti-woke decidedly don't speak. I thought that was clear.

How would you view the incident through the lens of wokeness or critical theory?

I don’t know how best to characterize the anti-woke. — Fire Ologist

Most concisely would simply be what the term implies: asleep or unaware.

Take the controversy surrounding Bud Light and transgender influencer Dylan Mulvaney for example. The anti-woke reacted unconsciously to reassert cisnormativity and the status quo. They didn't concsiously realize that their status or power was being challenged and yet reacted with shows of power, perhaps most famously with Kid Rock blasting cases of Bud Light with a semi-automatic assault rifle. Of course it could be that Rock was also acting in bad faith (like Bud Light) and capitalizing on the culture war, but either way the anti-woke drank it up heartily, the video having been viewed over 11 million times.

Art is a social construct grounded in aesthetic experience, which is characterized by heightened perceptual awareness, emotional engagement, a non-utilitarian or nonjudgmental stance, a diminished sense of self, and often a sense of emerging meaning or form. While this experience is commonly triggered by objects that are culturally recognized as art—such as paintings—it can also arise from many other sources and may vary in depth or intensity.

Depending on the individual and the context, an object barely recognizable as art may evoke a profound aesthetic experience, while a Rembrandt masterpiece might, for some reason, be dismissed outright. The experience is what has value and counts as art.

When such people are morally charged, and morally charged in the particular direction of identity politics, you get... — Leontiskos

I wouldn't suggest that support for their grievances is unwarranted.

I have confidence in my work but it needs to be stress-tested. That is why I am looking for an "astute reader" that could help me find a possible "fatal flaw" in my reasoning. The statement that I posted in my introduction is only part of my problem statement, in an effort to solicit some stress-testing of my work. — Pieter R van Wyk

Frankly, it appears that you're looking for an 'obtuse buyer' of your book and that's why you avoid openly discussing its contents.

Good luck with that endeavor.