Carol cannot correctly answer her question yet when she says "no" then she has correctly answered her question making "no" the wrong answer.

When Carol says "yes" this means that she can correctly answer her question with "no" yet we just proved that is incorrect. — PL Olcott

I agree. This is getting tricky, yes. I understand that it is proven that Carol cannot answer with 'yes' to claim that she can answer 'no' to the question. According to this context, it is getting more paradoxical, and I think this was the main point of your thread. What I do not understand is why you consider the question as 'wrong' when we are debating whether Carol is capable of answering the question correctly.

I mean: 'yes/no' doesn't affect the possibility of Carol answering as the question requires. At least, we can agree that the assertion of Carol answering as required is true.

I haven't changed the question. I claimed that Carol is actually capable of answering 'no'. I mean, there is not a contradiction between the question and the possibly answer from Carol. There must be something about this paradox that makes the assertion of Carol as true... or false. :smile:

I do not see it as an 'incorrect' question/answer but whether the assertions are either true or false. Can Carol correctly answer 'no' to this question? There is a true possibility that Carol could do so.

I changed the words to the better words of the PhD computer science professor. — PL Olcott

Can Carol correctly answer “no” to this question?
Let's ask Carol. If she says “yes”, she's saying that “no” is the correct answer for her, so “yes” is incorrect. If she says “no”, she's saying that she cannot correctly answer “no”, which is her answer. So both answers are incorrect. Carol cannot answer the question correctly.

Because:
(1) Both "yes" and "no" are the wrong answer from Carol. — PL Olcott

I see what you mean now. It is a paradox.

Yet, I think we can get a different result if we switch the assertions. The Anti-Liar paradox teaches us that the form of a proposition can determine its own truth or falsehood only if it is either a tautology or a contradiction. Neither the Carol's answer nor the possible answer is either a tautology or a contradiction.

Because:

A) If Carol's answer is true, then what she says is true. Therefore, it is the correct answer.

B) If Carol's answer is false, then what she says is false. Therefore, it is the wrong answer.

There is a possible alternative for Carol to answer correctly. Whether it is true or not that Carol can actually answer 'no' to the question itself.

It looks like it's going to end with no Palestinians in Gaza, in other words, a massacre. — frank

Yes, sadly. And most of the governments of the world are accepting and even backing up the massacre. Only a few condemned this madness and when they do so, the rest treat them as 'enemies'.

You ask someone (we'll call him "Jack") to give a truthful
> yes/no answer to the following question... — PL Olcott

Then the question is an incorrect question when posed to Jack — PL Olcott

As far as I have understood your reasoning, I think the latter fails to follow the original pattern of your premises. Firstly, you were asking for truthful yes/no answers to a specific question: 'Will Jack's answer to this question be no?' Not giving any relevance to whether the question is correct or incorrect, because you focused on the result, not the beginning. But, on the second group of premises, you focus on the questions instead. Rather than switching the 'context' - as you claim in your arguments - I think you are switching the meaning.

But maybe I am wrong, and I don't have a clue about what is going on. :smile:

If we only care about Israel's risks, this war will never end. This is what Putin claimed indirectly, and it answers your question. This is a conflict between two involved parts, and we should not care only about the interests of one of the sides. They are at risk because of the way they chose to manage their borders as we know today. Now, they have to face the consequences.

He's simplistically boiled down the issue so that he can take the opportunity to criticise his rival to the world. — flannel jesus

Well, he just told reliable facts. I think he wasn't meant to criticise the Western world only.

"Give Palestine independence and sovereignty" is OF COURSE ideal, but how do you do that without putting Israel at even further risk? — flannel jesus

Do you know that Israel is in a territory that never belonged to them? I don't see the Old Testament as a legitimate 'paper', it is not a treaty or convention. Maybe you do...

But the "we-are-in-Afghanistan-because-otherwise-it-will-become-a-terrorist-safe-have" absurdity was the official mantra given. In my view it is far more absurd and illogical than the domino theory during the Cold War. — ssu

:up:

Well, it doesn't seem likely that Ukraine would send weapons away. — jorndoe

Do you mean our weapons which were given to them for fighting against Russia?

It does look like the Kremlin is taking or forcing a path to a Cold War II, with some Hot spots, except they've learned from how the last one ended. — jorndoe

Oh, yes, that's a given! Russia is the only country which wants to polarise the world. But hey, Israel - backed up by the US and EU - has the right to occupy Gaza and kill thousands of citizens, including children. I think you guys need to be more pragmatic. The Kremlin is not that bad and the White House is not that good.

When was the last time the region was at peace? — frank

When the land was ruled by Ottoman Syria until the early 20th century, just before the rise of Zionism, the national movement of the Jewish people seeking to recreate a Jewish state in Palestine, and return the original homeland of the Jewish people.

Ottoman Syria

Of course Putin the peace keeping expert can teach them how to achieve peace. — flannel jesus

Did you read what he said at least? He hasn't said any stupidity:

Putin took the opportunity, during talks with visiting Iraqi Prime Minister Mohammed Shia Al-Sudani, to blame the sharp escalation on years of U.S. policy in the region.

"I think that many people will agree with me that this is a vivid example of the failure of United States policy in the Middle East," Putin said.

Putin said Washington had sought to "monopolise" efforts at forging peace, and accused it of failing to seek workable compromises. The United States, he said, had ignored the interests of Palestinians, including their need for their own independent Palestinian state.

Whether you like it or not, he is right in this case. It is impossible to reach peace if 'we' - NATO members and the rest of the Western mates - don't recognise the sovereignty of Palestinians.

The US isn't yet ready to have a discussion of how it basically lost the War in Afghanistan in the similar fashion as it lost South Vietnam. — ssu

I agree.

And with Afghanistan, where are those safe havens for terrorists planning to attack the US? — ssu

Good question. It reminds me of the conspiracy theory of the hidden nuclear weapons in Bagdad. Bush said back then: "The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder." https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html

The presumption that it always rings a bell...

Well, it is true that the US is used to taking decisions unilaterally. 'We' the members of NATO, and some of the EU supported them in Afghanistan to make peace and maintain control on Al-Qaeda. But this nation ended up being a plot for opium and the heroine.

I am not angry about the indifference by the US to the new Caliphate - or whatever it is Afghanistan nowadays - but on the citizens and collaborators who helped us once. The fact that they are abandoned in the randomness of destiny is mithering me. They could be killed by the Taliban or by a natural disaster. An Afghan person is forced to live in continuous uncertainty.

It's almost like these actions are governed by convenient utilities rather than any kind of value commitment. — Pantagruel

I agree, and I can't really know to what extent Zelensky is aware that, sooner or later, the U.S. and European Union will leave them there, not caring any more. A supposed admission to the EU is just a cherry-picking act.

Well, madness is still rolling over Afghanistan. Both the Western media and governments no longer care about the current situation in this country. Since we all left - spontaneously - it seems that this country doesn't exist any more.

Three large earthquakes have destroyed Herat province. Between 1,000 and 1,294 people died. Fortunately, some countries pledged to help and give money. For example: Australia pledged AU $1 million in aid to the Afghanistan Humanitarian Fund. The European Union approved a €3.5 million aid package too. Better than nothing, and I appreciate how some governments act with 'solidarity' in a country where most of them were there for twenty years. 2023 Afghanistan earthquakes

Do you know how much money the U.S. spent on helping Afghanistan in the recovery after the earthquakes? Zero. After being there for nearly 20 years, they value Afghanistan as zero. Nothingness. Emptiness.
Antony Blinken said: 'The United States is carefully tracking the impact of yesterday’s earthquake in northwestern Afghanistan. Our humanitarian partners are responding with urgent aid in support of the people of Afghanistan.'

Can't believe that they are ready to dry out the Federal Reserve for a country they have never been there - Ukraine - and they don't care about Afghanistan when it has been a key factor in their war against Al-Qaeda in the last decades...

And I don't care if you do not trust my sources. — neomac

Believe or not, I respect your effort. Another thing is my own disbelief in Western propaganda.

But your “evidences of why Moscow or Saint Petersburg can be nice cities to live in” is not pertinent to answer the question I asked because I asked about your preference between the AVG standard of life in whole fucking country of Russia compared to the AVG standard of life in a whole fucking European country, like Spain. — neomac

Preferences depend on someone's tastes, and according to my own aims and purposes, I personally consider Russia as a better place to live in than other countries of the EU. For example, if I had to leave Spain, I would try something in Russia, Japan, Ireland, Scotland, etc. But I do not see myself living in the average famous city: London, Rome or Paris. The hello no! They have a big problem with multiculturalism and insecurity in the streets.
There are other countries inside the EU which can fit my preferences, such as Poland and Hungary. I was in Kraków, and it was fantastic, and I felt good expending my time there.

What I am looking for in my preferences for a good city to live in is two main aspects: security (control on illegal immigration, so the neighbourhoods don't have ghetto problems. Sadly, Madrid - as well as other Western cities - is losing this battle) authenticity (the ambient, urbanism, behaviour, etc. Maintains their roots, and it is not influenced by Western 'activities' such as Mc Donald's or Netflix). According to my tastes, I see Moscow more authentic than London or Los Angeles, for example.

No it’s you who is twisting things. I asked you one question and expected a pertinent answer. If I ask you: “what time is it?” and your answer is “In Australia is summer”, your answer however true is not pertinent, no matter how many evidences you bring to support the claim “In Australia is summer”. And it’s not my question that needs to be revised to fit your answer, it’s your answer that needs to be revised to fit my question. — neomac

To be honest, I think you forgot why I showed evidences of why Moscow or Saint Petersburg can be nice cities to live in. Our discussion started because you stated the following premise: The western world is a better place to live in and it is less oppresive. I disagreed, saying that the Western media manipulates us to hate Russia. You didn't believe such a claim, and then I showed you why I sustain those opinions. The metrics I have shared are pretty good, but instead of being honest and accepting that Russia can be likeable too, you started to twist things. Your premises have no sense and you are off topic. Again, Is Russia that bad? Because I already proved why it is not, but I haven't seen any from your side.

And I’m responsible for what I write not for what you understand. — neomac

OK, I say the same regarding my evidences. It is not my business if you don't want to accept them.

I simply asked you to compare avg standard of life between Western countries and Russia. At best you can question or ask me why it is relevant to me to assess AVG standards of life by country — neomac

I don't question your opinion and thoughts because that would be arrogant on my side. I am not anyone to say if comparing the middle-classes of each country is relevant or not. For some reasons, this emerged during our debate, and then I did my best at showing data. If I had questioned the relevance of your inquiry, I would be a lazy person who doesn't know how to address questions.

If you understood the clarifications I’ve given to you in this post, good for you. If you didn’t, I’ll remember you in my prayers. — neomac

:up:

I didn’t write anywhere that I want evidences, indeed you can not quote me saying it — neomac

Hmmm...

I’m living and lived in several Western countries, and am pro-West, not specifically pro-Anglo-Saxon World — neomac

.

And my objections weren’t about the evidences — neomac

Ah, if your objections weren't about evidence, why do you reject them all?

I hope you understand that no matter how true these claims are, none of these evidences are sensibly pertinent to answer my question “do you prefer to eat a pizza in an Italian pizzeria or in a Chinese pizzeria?”. — neomac

Again, your arguments against my comments are twisted. I am pretty aware of what you were looking for when you started debating with me. I even answered you more than one time that I would rather live in an Eastern nation than a Western one, and I admitted that an Ukrainian has more right to live in the EU than me, frankly. To argue why I say those things, I provided reliable data along with my comments. Yet, you decided to refuse to accept them. As I said, that's your problem with not accepting that Russia is an important and likeable country, not mine.

On the other hand, the example of Chinese pizzerias is good. Nice try. But you should apply to yourself as well, because you are given as granted that every Western city is more suitable than Russia. I ask you now then: Would you live in Bucharest or Jaén? Don't say that in this part of the globe, life standards are better per se and, because you visited some Western cities, the rest are exactly as you are thinking about.

I do bother because Russia would pay a politician to spread Russian lies not me.
Or are you suggesting me to spread Russian lies for free as you do? — neomac

This is hilarious.

1. Why is a Russian representative necessarily a liar?

2. Again, I am working pro bono to help you to reach out the truth.

Next, since your answers weren’t focused on what I was asking, I gave you more clarifications as follows — neomac

But I see a bit of contradiction in your arguments, mate. Firstly, you say that you want evidences in how it is to live in Russia, not just for tourism. I showed you some evidence which you didn't like. Later on, you also said that you like Western countries because you travelled around them... That's contradictory.

Next, YOU started throwing at me stats by yourself because, at his point, I didn’t ask you for evidence and metrics yet. So much so that you wrote all by yourself as follows: — neomac

Because my points are based on the fact that Russia is likeable basically. To back up my opinion, I showed you evidence. If you don't like them, and you do not want to accept the reality it is your problem mate, not Russia's or mine.

I asked you to express your preference as a function of AVG standards of life between states (e.g. Russa vs Spain) — neomac

I did that, but you rejected my arguments too... here

And aggregated stats about Moscow can not be taken as representative of the AVG standard of life in the entire Russia. — neomac

I partially agree.

It is true that I focused on Moscow and not other Oblasts or cities. Well, this is due to using metrics, we tend to focus on capital cities because they are the places where most of the citizens live. It is the largest city in Russia by population, but we can take into account another city: Saint Petersburg.

St. Petersburg is a major trade gateway, financial and industrial center of Russia specialising in oil and gas trade, shipbuilding yards, aerospace industry. St. Petersburg has three large cargo seaports: Bolshoi Port St. Petersburg, Kronstadt, and Lomonosov. Toyota is building a plant in Shuishary, one of the suburbs; General Motors and Nissan have signed deals with the Russian government too. Automotive and parts industry is on the rise here during the last decade. The federal subject's gross regional product as of 2021 was ₽9.44 trillion (€108 billion), ranked second in Russia, after Moscow.

Impressive! It is clearly a city full of opportunities for Russian citizens.

Well it doesn’t work. You should try to help me see the truth by paying me instead. But I’m very expensive (and do not accept rubles, moy drug). — neomac

Well, you just accept that you are open to accepting bribes. Ha! Don't bother if a Russian politician does it as well. This is all that I have in my wallet. Take it or leave it!

What I do not understand about this conflict is why the Western media is obsessed about finding evidence to show that Hamas is funded by Iran or Russia. As well as 'we' (forced by the US and NATO) fund Ukraine and Israel, why aren't they able to do the same in Palestine?

Why are the Western institutions ready to block Iran financially if they discover that Iran funded Hamas? This over imposing sanctions always creates problems.

October 10th.

I will chose the hegemon which lets me enjoy the most favourable ratio of carrots/sticks to MY taste, not to YOUR taste. The avg ratio of carrots/sticks in Russia (not to mention the countries under its direct hegemonic influence like Belarus) until now looks still undoubtedly shitty compared to the ratio of of carrots/sticks Western countries get under the US hegemony. — neomac

Understandable. Who am I to force you to choose your taste?

But, as much as I can remember, our debate didn't start because of likes or preferences. You asked me for evidence and metrics on the Russian middle-class, and I have provided them using both Western and 'Pro-Russia' sources. Then, you said that they are not reliable to you, something that I must not complain about because I do not trust Western institutions either. You are not admitting it, but I feel that you ended up in the conclusion that Russia is a cool place in objective terms. Speaking subjectively, maybe it is not likeable for some people, including you, and I respect your position. If you think that the world governed by Western institutions is better, cool. But stop believing in false premises about Russia.

You waste your energies because you do not understand what I’m asking nor why. — neomac

I do not waste my time because I am helping you to see the truth. :smile:

If European countries prefer to preserve or want to join American-led/supervised Western institutions like EU/NATO than it means they find such institutions as less oppressive than remaining exposed to the influence of other hegemons (like Russia or China). — neomac

I partially agree with some of these points and disagree at the same time.

There is a big debate about whether the EU countries established the European Union freely, or whether it was an attempt to not depend on the two blocks: not the USA and Russia (the Soviet Union back then). Yet, it is true that European institution ended up being more linked with Washington and not with Russia. I still see it as a notorious mistake. I don't attempt to ignore the USA because it is impossible, but I wish they had had a more neutral position, and don't perceive Russia as an enemy. I see this objective far more than ever, and I feel that the White House is satisfied with this.

On the other hand, there are some nations which were pushed to join those American institutions. One example is Spain. We had to join NATO to show that we were your friends, and then get accepted by the European Union. There was a big disappointment amongst the citizens because most of us were against NATO back in the day. You can check this out on the Internet if you want to, but I don't want to bother you with my irrelevant country.

I read your link. But, again, my question was about comparing AVG in the West with AVG in Russia according to relevant metrics. — neomac

Well, I understand why it is so difficult to persuade you. If you do not give a chance to my evidence or metrics, it will be very complex to make your eyes open. There are some metrics which come from Western institutions or magazines, such as 'The Economist'. Furthermore, since the war started, it is complex to find out reliable information about Russia's reality because the Western media manipulates us and the Kremlin blocks the most information they can. But fortunately, there are some premises that we can consider as true:

1. Russia is a rich and developed country but with a few problems.

2. More than 50 % of Russians live in the Middle-class

3. Then, Russia is a country with high-quality living standards, but they must face some issues as every nation does.

Furthermore, even the International Monetary Fund - a great biassed Western institution - says that the purchasing power parity will keep rising in Russia in the following years: $36,135.834 (2024); $37,273.366 (2025), etc. Do you still think that the average family in Russia lives or will live badly? Is the IMF a reliable source for you?
Poverty line: 12.10% in 2020. This means that more than 85 % - the middle-class obviously - of Russians live well. More metrics from a Western lover institution: The World Bank. https://www.worldbank.org/en/home

I only argued that the US is a less oppressive hegemon to the West than Russia was for centuries toward the people it submitted and can still be given how they are treating the Ukrainians or Georgian or Belarusian, and the Russians themselves. — neomac

I think you should define 'oppression' if you want me to agree with you. If you truly think that Russia has been more oppressive than the US in the last centuries, we have a big issue here because you are away from reality itself.

Some countries from those regions not all. East Europe like Poland, Baltic Countries and Ukraine? Asia like Vietnam, Japan and South Korea? — neomac

Tell how Russia treats countries such as South Korea or Vietnam oppressively, because they are so far away from their geopolitical ambitions. I am seeing you coming, and maybe you would say: Don't you remember how Soviet Russia supported Vietnam? And why not, mate? They are free to back up countries with similar ideologies. They also support Syria for the Baaz socialist party.

Yes that’s exactly what non-oppressive hegemons are expected to do, buy popular consensus (not just oligarchy’s consensus) through shared rules, business agreements, sharing technologies, granting political and civil rights, communicate a peaceful and cooperative narrative between allies through words, acts and cultural exchanges. But OBVIOUSLY not to the extent of compromising their power advantage against potential/actual rivals. — neomac

Ha! ha! This one made me laugh :lol:

OK now you may have given me an answer from your point of view, not mine though. I most certainly keep in mind that Russia is suffering a financial block from the West, since network of allies and enemies is also what can determine AVG standard of life of a country. — neomac

Mate, I am providing you with reliable information on the middle-class of Russia, but I feel that you do not believe in the metrics, or you just don't open the links I have shared with you. OK, don't worry that much, I will open the link and share the information and proven evidence in this thread. Nonetheless, keep in mind that if you do not believe in these metrics, it is your problem, not Russia's.

The HSE Centre for Studies of Income and Living Standards studied the dynamics of the middle class and its behaviour with regard to paid services. The study was based on data drawn from the HSE Russian Longitudinal Monitoring Survey (RLMS-HSE) for the years 2000 to 2017, and the results were presented at the 20th April International Academic Conference hosted by HSE.

The HSE researchers applied three criteria for their study:

Material well-being;
Social and professional status;
Self-identification.

The middle class is identified according to the following factors: income, savings, property (durable goods), real estate and assets typical of villagers (land and farming revenue).

Although the overall middle class grew continually from 2000 until 2015 and levelled off only in the lead-up to 2017, the generalized middle class continued to expand right up until 2017.

The middle class is heterogeneous and includes several different groups:

The core. This includes those who satisfy all three of the above-listed criteria.

The semi-core. Those who satisfy two of the three criteria.

The periphery. Those who satisfy only one of the criteria.

The generalized middle class consists of those households belonging to the core and semi-core, while the overall middle class also includes those in the periphery.

Happy now? https://iq.hse.ru/en/news/276242940.html#:~:text=Russia%E2%80%99s%20Middle%20Class%201%20Between%20the%20rich%20and,for%20its%20active%20use%20of%20paid%20services.%20

You are not writing arguments, but you just post some links to the Western press. The fact the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan killing 226,000 people is a fact, mate. This is not speculation from the Kremlin or Shanghai, so I still do not understand why you defend such an atrocity.

Might Moldova eye Transnistria? — jorndoe

They did.

What of Kazakhstan? — jorndoe

They did.

Georgia? — jorndoe

They did, back in 2008 but nobody gave a f*ck. Russo-Georgian War Relations reached a full diplomatic crisis by April 2008, when NATO promised to consider Georgia's bid for membership. Yikes! The same problem kicked in fifteen years ago. What a damn coincidence!

(What might Lukashenko do?) — jorndoe

This dude is zero relevant. You guys love to create enemies in each Eastern country, and I agree with Putin in this fact.

To what end? Dictatorship, authoritarianism? Sortition? Democracy? — jorndoe

Written by another user who backs up the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Don't waste your time. I will not answer posts from a 'Pro-Genocide' and destructive cultures-Japan-Asia like you.

But I’m pro-West and find all these countries more oppressive powers than the US so I support policies and a stance aiming at suppressing or containing the threat coming from these countries. — neomac

Although I understand what you are defending with arguments, here is when I disagree with you. Are you really sure that the USA is a lesser threat to the world? Latin America, Asia, Africa and East Europe would disagree with you. It is obvious that the White House no longer bombs citizens and cities, but the ambitions remain in a more subtle way: imposing Capitalism worldwide, the rule of the Dollar, your military headquarters being settled worldwide (we have two!), Hollywood culture..., the homogeneous plan of speaking English worldwide, etc. If you do not consider those as a threat...

Still not enough, you have to compare the AVG living standards between Russia and the West. — neomac

OK. I will not give up on my beliefs, so here is the comparative between Russia and your lovely 'Western family'

Russia: GDP Increase $4.771 trillion
• Per capita Increase $33,263
Gini (2020) Positive 36.0
HDI (2021) Increase 0.822 very high.

Spain: GDP $2.36 trillion
• Per capita Increase $31,223
Gini (2021) Positive decrease 33.0[9]
HDI (2021) Increase 0.905

Greece: GDP $418.113 billion
Per Capita $22,595
Gini (2022) Positive decrease 31.4[7]
HDI Increase 0.887.

Are you happy now? And keep in mind that Russia is suffering an unfair financial block from the West. Imagine their development without our weird behaviour in Europe just to make the White House happy.

Dude, it’s not that difficult to fetch stats about Russia on the Internet. — neomac

I don't believe those statistics. They are made by Western universities and foundations. They have zero relevance to me.

China, Iran and North Korea are indirectly supporting Russia and its most ambitious stated goal to establish a new World Order alternative to the Western-led World Order, also through this war. — neomac

A fully understandable objective, don't you think? They are free to attempt to get a different type of world. Who are we to stop them? Maybe this is where the conflict could arise. The continuous obsession with implementing how the nations should be and live.

Indeed I talked about AVG standard of life, meaning that it is important to see how public and private resources and services are distributed over the population, how large is the middle class, how easy it is to move from lower classes to higher, etc. — neomac

OK, I see you like the digits I showed, so I will continue to use others as well - they are reliable, don't be shy to accept them - :

Russia: In 2022, the Economist calculated that Russia did graduate into the category of high-income economies by 2022, if counted at purchasing power parity rather than the exchange rate, but could fall below the threshold because of invasion of Ukraine. In December 2022 in a study an economist at the Bank of Russia’s Research and Forecasting Department, finds that the import dependence of the Russian economy is relatively low, does not exceed the median for other countries and the share of imports in most industries is lower than in other countries. The key explanation for this could be the low involvement of the Russian economy in global value supply chains and its focus on production of raw materials. However, 60% of Russia’s imports come from the countries that have announced sanctions against Russia. Russia's expenditure on education has grown from 2.7% of the GDP in 2005 to 4.7% in 2018 but remains below the OECD average of 4.9% A 2015 estimate by the United States Central Intelligence Agency puts the literacy rate in Russia at 99.7% (99.7% for men, 99.6% for women). The Human Rights Measurement Initiative finds that Russia is fulfilling 86.8% of what it should be fulfilling for the right to education, based on its level of income. Russia 1
A member of the middle class is defined as someone who considers themselves ‘above average’ on two or more of the indices.

By this measure, almost 50.8% of all Russian families belonged to the middle class, up from 41.8% in 2000. Check this out!!! https://iq.hse.ru/en/news/276242940.html#:~:text=Russia%E2%80%99s%20Middle%20Class%201%20Between%20the%20rich%20and,for%20its%20active%20use%20of%20paid%20services.%20

After what they may have suffered to have the opportunity to live in the West, they most certainly deserve to be part of the West more than you do. Do you agree? — neomac

Yes.

The easiest way for you to permanently migrate to Russia is to volunteer to join the Russian front in Donbas and fight the selfish Ukrainians and evil West/NATO/US to restore justice in this world. — neomac

Don't push me to death, mate. You will have me around for years defending Russia. We are not done yet. :smile:

I even doubt they are suitable metrics to asses the AVG life standards in Moscow. — neomac

I thought you would not like - or accept - the metrics of Moscow's living standards and economics, even though I made a big effort to share them with you...

That's why I get bothered. Why don't you believe in information related to Russia?

In Russia political opponents fall out of windows. In the US they get shot in broad daylight. — Tzeentch

I do not know what is worse, whether poisoning a system to execute an elected president or lying to their own citizenship in everything which is regarded to Kennedy's death.

Or what about using the authorities to execute a human rights lawyer in Northern Ireland? Pat Finucane

The thing that bothers me the most is how western lovers justify those acts by the government because the politicians were 'elected' in a ballot, and they think they live covered by a great umbrella. Not like Xi, he is a bad guy and Putin is even worse because he doesn't have opposition in the Duma.

And now look at Japan today and wonder why it's still such a successful country. — Echarmion

We have a user here who backs up the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I will not waste my time on answering you in the rest of the comments because I already did it to neomac, and you are ill-mannered for diving in other people's business.

Still prefer it over Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. — neomac

Why are you always obsessed with these four countries? I agree that Iran and North Korea need to change in some areas, but Russia and China are inspiring models. Two main reasons for my argument:
1. They have economic stability, and they are important in the financial scene. Russia is the main supplier of oil and gas, and China the supplier of... everything. Imagine if they were not being banned or blocked by the westerners, they would be superpowers.
2. They do not have immigration problems or cultural conflicts. They are well known for keeping aside illegal immigration, and it is very difficult to establish ghettos in their cities. It is important to keep the cities safe. Are you going to ignore the illegal immigration problem in Europe too?

I’m particularly disturbed by military nuclear powers with an authoritarian regime... — neomac

This is outrageous. As far as I know, the USA - king of the westerners - is the only nation who dropped nuclear weapons on another nation: Japan. Or do you think that the Japanese deserved it because they were ruled by Hirohito?

I’m asking you if YOU would prefer to live as an AVG person in China, Russia, Iran or as an AVG person in a Western country, let’s say, Spain, WHATEVER YOUR understanding of life in these countries is and whatever parameters YOU find relevant to assess life standards. — neomac

Yes.

Again, I’m not talking about privileged people, nor about the ability to live (happily or unhappily) in a country, — neomac

My arguments were not written in this direction, but I am perceiving that you want to twist them. Are you looking for evidence and data? OK, I will show you, despite the fact that you will not take them into account, because if they show high standards in those countries, you will not believe it...

Moscow: Gross Regional Product: €281billion / (€22205 per capita) The city has over 40 percent of its territory covered by greenery, making it one of the greenest cities in the world. Moscow has one of the largest municipal economies in Europe and it accounts more than one-fifth of Russia's gross domestic product (GDP). Overall, economic stability has improved in recent years. In 2019 the Economist Intelligence Unit's Worldwide Cost of Living survey put Moscow to 102nd place in the biannual ranking of 133 most expensive cities. There are 1,696 high schools in Moscow, as well as 91 colleges. The Moscow Metro is a world leader in the frequency of train traffic—intervals during peak hours do not exceed 90 seconds. The Moscow Metro is also the first and only one in the world to switch to this schedule. In February 2023, Moscow was the first in the world to reduce the intervals of metro trains to 80 seconds. It is the third metro system in the world (after Madrid and Beijing), which has two ring lines.
Moscow

It seems to me a pretty and attractive city to live in...

Will the textbooks and Encyclopaedia will still be in demand? — Corvus

I voted the Encyclopaedias and text books will still be in demand. ChatGPT is a good invention, but it is just a tool. Furthermore, the answers are not reliable enough, whilst an Encyclopaedia is written by authors who are experts in the ground. On the other hand, if I am not wrong, I guess that the functionality of ChatGPT is the elaboration of replies thanks to the data that it collects from Encyclopaedias.

Commentary from US media has pointed out that Iran is almost certainly involved in this attack — Wayfarer

Meanwhile it suits Putin down to the ground to have this flare up, it will divert attention and possibly arms from his illegal war. — Wayfarer

'But I am not brainwashed by the Western press' :rofl:

still prefer to live as an avg English or Irish in Tatcher's era than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You? — neomac

Would you rather be a middle-class person in Russia or in a PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) country? That's the question we should care about, and how we can understand if some countries are worthy of living in, and others don't. It is not the Anglo-Saxon world only.

Gay marriage is not accepted even in Italy. — neomac

But then why do our Western media only focus on Russian abuse of gay people and not on Italy? Don't you really perceive the hypocrisy I am talking about?

I don’t talk about tourism, I don’t talk about giving a chance. I talk about living your life as an avg person in Western countries vs in one of those authoritarian countries. Which one do you personally prefer? — neomac

I know a lot of people who are happy and find their lives satisfied living in China, for example. It is a country with a lot of opportunities. Before this useless war, Moscow was an interesting city for a lot of international stakeholders. Oh, one thing, they are not authoritarian just because the law is effective in their countries. I promise I want to try to live there for a while. Would you do the same in Romania or the South of Spain? Again, the Western World is not only the UK and US. :smile:

Your conclusion: Most countries are rubbish regarding the treatment of their citizens, but for unclear reasons, the Western world is more attractive than the East because *insert a senseless argument*

I don’t love the Western world. I simply prefer to live as an avg Westerner than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You? — neomac

Well, they have a good economic and beautiful cities, culture, museums, etc. Maybe I will give it a chance in the future. Who knows? What I am sure about is that I will not go to Mississippi or Ohio. I don't want to get shot by police officers just for being Hispanic.

The bother I feel when I’m accused of being brainwashed is just part of an intellectual game, nothing I take personally. — neomac

My aim is not to attack you, but to show evidence and arguments to open your eyes. There can be other data, reality, facts, circumstances. The world is more complex than just put the finger on Russia and accuse them of everything. I want to know the truth, and it seems that the Western media is far from telling me so.

I personally don’t give a shit if Ukraine recognises gay marriages. — neomac

But they want to be part of the Western World, not the East!

The difference would still be that you can whine over Western hypocrisy against the British government and build a political protest over it, try to do the same in Russia. — neomac

You didn't understand anything of what I wrote... There were a lot of Irishmen who tried to criticise the hypocrisy and abuse of British politics, but they ended up dying of starvation or in jail... So the abuse of governments happens everywhere, not only in Russia. But we only feel astonished when they are the ones one who act in such a way.

I understand.

The position of Spain after the death of Franco was similar to the end of the Soviet Union. A country with the need to be respected by the international arena again, and our people gave a big effort, transferring a lot of sovereignty - and dignity sometimes - to Brussels. So, our politicians never claimed Gibraltar back because it is so 'nationalist' and we were feared of being rejected by the European Union. The years passed by, and most of the Spaniards no longer care about Gibraltar because we understand it has always been English.

I thought the European Union would make a movement in favour of Spain after Brexit. But most people do not want to get involved in these issues...

On the other hand, Ceuta and Melilla were never part of Morocco, but Portugal. Nonetheless, those cities decided to move on to the Castile - Spanish - Kingdom and Portugal agreed on this transference. Morocco claims those territories - as well as the Canary Islands - with the aim of establishing a Great Morocco, which never existed, and it is only in their dictator's mind.

Why should the 1938 demographics be the deciding factor? If we want things to be resolved in a fair & just manner, then at a minimum shouldn't we go back to the Crimean Khanate? — EricH

I didn't attempt to consider the 1938 map as a determinant, but to show how perfectly it is drawn. We are debating here about sovereignty, and we can see that the coloured part is Russian. Yes, I read some information on the Crimean Khanate. It seems to be a Turkic tribe who inhabited the zone for some centuries and then, they were part of an Ottoman protectorate, and then the peninsula was transferred to the Russian Empire after the Russo-Turkish War (1768–1774). That tribe no longer exists since the end of the war, so it will not be worth debating if the peninsula belongs to them. Russia has been maintaining more power and presence since then.

The same happened to Celtiberians. They were the original inhabitants of Spain, until the Roman Empire vanished from them. Are they the real owners of the Iberian Peninsula? Or the Romans, Moors, Visigoth? Well, the Reconquista established that this land belonged to Castile and the rest of the Iberian kingdoms, which they united themselves to become Spain.

And Qatar and Algeria are not hegemonic powers threatening the West. — neomac

Iraq and Vietnam either, but we destroyed their structures and created a big division amongst their citizens. Do you perceive the hypocrisy of the Western now?

I respect your love and commitment to the Western world. Who am I to say that you are wrong? I wish some would have the same empathy and respect for other cultures and preferences... Yet, sorry to accuse you that you have been brainwashed by the Western media to dislike Russia and everything related to East Europe. It is funny when our journalists - my circus country included, for sure! - are obsessed with showing how evil Putin is. He is attacking the sovereignty of Ukraine! - whilst nobody cared about Georgia back in 2008 - and he is a dictator because he poisoned his political rivals - whilst Ukraine doesn't even recognise gay marriage, but hey, they deserve to be part of EU membership and Western civilisation.

Furthermore, are you aware of how the UK acted against IRA members in N. Ireland back in the 1970s and 1980s? Do you really think that's a moral and legitimate way to proceed? The 1981 Irish hunger strike left ten young boys dying for starvation due to their hunger strike. Margaret Thatcher showed zero empathy for them and zero respect for their deaths. Could you imagine the hypocrisy if this happened in Russia?

I ask you: Why didn't the world condemn - or block - the United Kingdom for such abominable behaviour?

That's the Western world you love and care for...

@ssu I just watched the documentary. Very interesting and a good piece of work to understand the cultural and problem of identity in N. Ireland. It is a video of nearly one hour, and the part I would like to share with you is the targeting and death of Pat Finucane by the British government. It made me astonished. Such a situation is not expected to be in a democratic country like the UK and its police officers.

Finucane's widow subsequently claimed that Margaret Thatcher, the UK Prime Minister at the time of the murder, "knew exactly what was going on". She claimed that Cory had told her that he had seen papers marked 'for cabinet eyes only', and they involved collusion and the killing of her husband. On 12 December 2012, the government released the Pat Finucane Review, the results of the inquiry conducted by Sir Desmond de Silva. The report documented extensive evidence of State collaboration with loyalist gunmen, including the selection of targets, and concluded that "there was a wilful and abject failure by successive governments to provide the clear policy and legal framework necessary for agent-handling operations to take place effectively within the law.

Imagine using the state power to kill a lawyer for just representing and defending IRA members in court. At least, we never did that with Catalan members and later on, we call Putin a psychopath in some threads...

But karma kicks in and now his son, John Finucane, is the first Irish nationalist MP in the history of the constituency. :smile:

I admit that Russia was bellicose before the war started, and I do not attempt to justify the lost lives in this war or even in 2014, when the annexation of Crimea started either, but I personally believe that Ukraine in the 1990s proceeded with bad faith when they didn't concede Crimea to Russia. Yes, I know that the USSR conceded to them the management of the peninsula in 1954. But, we have to notice that the piece of land was part of Russia for 174 years, and the release was just an administrative concession for the Supreme Soviet of Ukraine, not Ukraine as we all know nowadays.
According to a 2009 article on Russian website Pravda.ru, the Presidium of the Supreme Council gathered for a session on 19 February 1954 when only 13 of 27 members were present. There was no quorum, but the decision was adopted unanimously. https://english.pravda.ru/history/107129-ussr_crimea_ukraine/

Who owns the Crimean Peninsula? This map shows how the land was always part of Russian sovereignty. It dates from 1938, and it is not really old.

Hence sovereignty and recognition of this sovereignty are simply the political and legal foundations of owning land. — ssu

Exactly, and this is where the problems arise. The Western world does not want to recognise the sovereignty of Russia in those 'disputed' lands because they do not respect the Russian constitution when it is clear that the 65th article says: Chapter 3. The Russian Federation includes the following subjects of the Russian Federation:

Republic of Adygeya, Republic of Altai, Republic of Bashkortostan, Republic of Buryatia, Republic of Daghestan, Republic of Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkarian Republic, Republic of Kalmykia, Karachayevo-Circassian Republic, Republic of Karelia, Komi Republic, Republic of Crimea, Republic of Mari El, Republic of Mordovia, Republic of Sakha (Yakutia), Republic of North Ossetia - Alania, Republic of Tatarstan, Republic of Tuva, Udmurtian Republic, Republic of Khakassia, Chechen Republic, Chuvash Republic.