However, do you think that we have "understood" nature itself? Or just describing nature but not understand it? Why or why not? — The0warrior

We have created the properly tools to describe what is around us. Physics help us to understand the nature and establish principles that supposed to be universals as you said, gravity.
But no, we do not have understand it at all yet. Nature itself is very complex. Probably we have to start with the roots and explain what is going on with Big Bang theory. It appears it is just a theory but involves the born of the earth. So while we cannot prove “specific” about the Big Bang theory we cannot understand the nature itself. We still have some realities which escapes from or view.

Do you agree with the following sentence: "the end of science is theology"? — The0warrior

No. Science is literally a weapon to fight against theology.

The ancient said the incomplete will be completed, the curve will be straightened, the empty will be filled, the used will be renovated. The simplicity makes having success, the multiplicity disturbs.

Verse number 22.

Thoughts: patience and simplicity. Everything has their properly time. We do not have to rum so quickly along the life. Everything will end up filled at the end of the day. If we multiply when we don’t have to our life will be disturbed

I will call it maturity. I understand your point. That period of time where you start accepting or respecting yourself and also the path of life starts having another point of view. Yes, we can call it intuition, because as you said intuition is somehow intelligent.
But... love is not here too. I can’t believe in love but in myself or intuition. I think theses concepts can survive separated from each other.

The Absolute (e.g., The Dao, God) is unknowable, unchangeable, and exists outside of time. It is something you may sense or feel but never something you can know (intellectually). — synthesis

Interesting point. I am atheist and I was raised in home of atheists. For my the absolute (you put as example God) is unknowable but also irrelevant in my way of living. It isn’t something that I never experienced at all neither feel it. I will never know what actually means because I do not put the effort to do it.
I guess you considered this characteristics of the absolute as something we know innately but I am quite disagree in that. This is an example, as you explained previously, of a relative concept of mind.
Probably you are used to have in your vocabulary or living abstract concepts as “God” and it’s omnipresence so this is why you believes it exists outside you. But what is consider as absolute to you, it is so relative for me.

But I'm sad because people die. I will die, and the human species looks really quite likely to die out too, the way things are going."

I'm sad because people die. I will die, but the human species looks really quite likely to survive into the long term future."

Determinism vs scepticism.

Probably I going to sound so fool but methodologies remember me about empiricism or better said extreme empiricism. I guess al philosophers have methods to work on because it is impossible having theories without experiencing some methods previously. So yes, they are so influenced about what they as philosophers have experienced back in the day with their “masters”
I guess they will be along their lives perfecting or maybe criticising what methods they used to being taught. So in this point we can say methodology is like a compass to the youngest thinkers.

Nevertheless, it isn’t impossible to change. Probably some of them will end up changing the methodology one day they learned

Agree with you. China should have more control in the Occidental market. Paying more taxes or whatever or duties to their products. But how can we punish them? It seems so impossible. They are powerful and I think we cannot do anything without their amazing supplying/developing shite like electronics, clothes, accessories, etc... also it is country with zero human rights so many big companies go there to have slaves as “workers” (Apple for example builds their accessories in China...)
They are huge country who cares zero about life and rights. Facing them it is very complex.

It is scaring how slowly China has been climbing to the top of the world’s power during decades.

When the Principle reigns the horses of war are raised in the fields
When the Principle is forgotten, the horses of war are raised even in the slums of the cities

Thoughts: this is one of my favourite quotes from Tao. I guess it is related to peace and order in the cities or villages. If you control the Principle and everything around you is under a composure state the “horses” will not be prepared to fight anyone but just being free in the green fields having a good life.

For one who loves knows many things that the one without does not. — Thinking

What if give love but I don’t receive it back? Sometimes love is overacting. I guess the properly word here is “respect” because this is the truest cordial representation between individuals. Love can be sometimes so toxic

Love is a serious mental disease. Plato

Love is the principle cause of all things in the Universe it is a resource the is infinite to tap into. — Thinking

Personally I disagree. I guess the principle cause of all things is the faith of believing we can change the reality to better.
Love and it’s forms are overrated marketing to be honest...

The Revolt of Masses by José Ortega y Gasset.

Read with attention and meditatively what I said ... — Anand-Haqq

You did not understand what I said ... — Anand-Haqq

The average statements of someone who don’t even understand what is typing in the internet. Just empty ideas.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly here. Who is "they"? — Benkei

I was referring to the State itself and the governors aka all of those who have the power to control the leviathan. I was not disagree with you. I guess it is quite negative saying paying taxes is theft. This action can at least provide us the same opportunities to start with.
But sometimes it looks like literally a theft (the public services are not so good sometimes... but yeah it is better than nothing).
Thank you for your explanation about how worthless the action of printing money could be.
Nevertheless, here is the big problem then. How effective can be the State. As you perfectly asked to me:

what should be the function of the State? — Benkei

Well I don’t want to make a tangent here but it is another kind of debate. Here is the problem itself. The state. It is not the act of paying taxes but how the leviathan administrates the revenue (which it is a lot). It is true that I am not have to be so pessimistic because there are some States that proof how taxes can work positively to the people. For example, the Nordic countries tend to have many taxes but it is completely worthy because they are the representation of social welfare state
But this is not the reality in the most countries of the world. Most of them just give “average” services not good quality ones. Perhaps, in this point depends a lot of how lucky you are in the country you were born in.
Sometimes you can provide all the tools but the State/government/leviathan will not do nothing special at all and only provide inequality.

, if you have not made the mistake of getting too many kids at an early age, and seemingly found a moderate amount of work at your twenties, you can still enjoy the same goods as the plutocrat in some faraway mansion. — Shawn

Agree. This is the main point to light up here. I guess as you explained, that taking advantage of your 20's working or studying will pay off when you get older because you have won time for your own interest so money couldn't be a huge problem. All of those who prefer focus in themselves instead of acting we are still in 1800's having kids at 17 or 20 years old will be more "peaceful" with his own life.
Do he will be happy with less money than a milloniare because it looks like the life is easier for those which works (true probably not all the citizens but the majority)
I guess the important house here is afford a house or an affordable loan to buy to. Because house in of the most important goals in human development. The rest is secondary and you can even buy it too with less money if you are patient and clever

because that would mean people should be paid based on moral worth of their services and their own moral worth or needs. But that's not what's being established in the market. — Benkei

It is not established in the market as you perfectly explained because since Spinoza divided education in enlightenment they teach us how to be "practical" not how to be moral.
The market and somehow "everything" do not care at all if the payer is or not a moralist. They just want his money to provide revenue to the State.

Any of you serfs out there feel as if the central authority in your country treats you as if you hold sway over them? — synthesis

Yes. Of course this is the feeling I have about the central authority of my country. I am somehow like a slave, probably not like someone in the Rome Empire who can be treated as trash but so similar. I have to pay bills, low paid jobs, injustices everywhere, privileges to others... They created a system where they (administrators of leviathan) always win.
But it is quite impossible live in a community without all of this. At least we have a guarantee.
Probably and just probably, one or 10 (no more) can do it this.

I don't see religion as something we need to escape from. If we do need to escape from something, CallMeDirac's way is not the right way. — T Clark

Yes you are right. I was saying that we don't have any escape from any kind of boss. Some can give us just stability (so called the leviathan "democracy") or others can give us destruction.
Also I guess @CallMeDirac was defending a secular education/system avoiding all kind of subterfuges.

I cringe whenever state proponents pretend taxation is the moral and compassionate thing to do, as if paying a tax was akin to taking care of the ill and feeding the poor. — NOS4A2

Yes I cringe too because it is supposed that if we pay taxes we will save other people's lives. Probably it is true thanks to this system at least we give to all the citizens an "opportunity" to start with. But I guess everything do not starts and neither ends just for paying taxes. If the system is screwed the distribution of benefits will be flawed too.

If the government is forced into austerity, usually by its own overspending, the services the population has grown to become dependent on could be lost. — NOS4A2

This is the point where I go totally pessimistic. I don't understand why some people cheers when the State get into debt more than 100 % of their GDP. Like... What's going on here? This method will make us poorer and more dependent from the governors and their laws. At least, I guess, in this situation we will not be so lost because the people nowadays are not ignorant and they understand when the State is not doing their work good or a proper administration.
I guess this is something interspersed. We are lost because... We are so dependent of the State/situation?

Do you believe people are THAT weak? I believe people, once given the taste of freedom again, will not be able to get enough — synthesis

Yes because we the humans have proven for centuries that we cannot live in the wild (neither freedom) without an order. The different scenario would be a chaos. Probably a few can do it but not all
We don't have the problem that system and government have ended up disappointed us

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. — T Clark

We don't have a chance to escape then.

Just look at the power that corporations and government has over individuals in the West now. Can anybody suggest that this has been a good thing? — synthesis

Indeed. It is an awful abomination created by us. But try for just a month living off the corporations, governments, etc... I will not say it is impossible but you will play in hard mode.
Also, I guess soon or later will be appear that feeling of trying to speak with someone or being part of something, I mean the unbeatable leviathan

why are so many people smitten with group mentality? — synthesis

Sometimes I think it looks like we are forced by the system stay together, inside the group. But somehow I guess it has the natural perception too.
It is very hard to live in loneliness or not following tendencies/thoughts/ideas and the persons who defend these.
There are even scientifics who defends that loneliness are pretty bad for our mental health.
I guess the problem is not the natural stimulus but how toxic some groups can be

I'm reading Locke's Essay on Human Understanding and Leibniz answer to this. Anyone who has read the same text(s) that wants to discuss it? — Tiaclarice

I also read Locke's Essay on Human Understanding. It is one of the best books of philosophy ever written in my opinion (this is why I went back in the day so empirical he). I am from Spain so I read the Spanish commented version of two philosophers from my country.
Yes! I want to discuss it too. What is the matter?

I also had as you the delusion experience. I didn't dreamed about something that serious of seeing someone dying but I felt the same sensation as you. My dream was about (I had this delusion hundred of times) a meeting of persons that are very important in my life in a white diaphanous room.
This is not something random. I usually meet this persons in diaphanous rooms but why is it white?
Here is where philosophy arises. I want to give to the white colour a positive meaning and considerate it is something related to transparency because the persos I meet in the room are always evaluating me. So I want to understand this is the real meaning. White room can reflect transparency in they way they look at me.
But these are just my guesses.

Yes. So government suck but at least with them we are not still eating in the gass and being slaves to others. Agree, you are right in this point. Somehow it is evolved to provide us security, freedom, equality, etc... (well it depends which government we are talking about go to Brazil or Myanmar...) but it does not get the pass they deserve. They (aka government/leviathan) instructed us that literally without them it is impossible to live in standards. Well I am somehow disagree. If you go to some villages or folks in USA or Canada they live happily despite they do not afford all of our rights/development.
so I guess the problem along the government is the mass which is uncontrollable.

As @Tzeentch said in another thread:

I would still regard it as a necessary evil, at best.

The royals do not serve and the media do not inform

@unenlightened

This is the main key how royals stay in the power. The secret pact of hide all conflicts between the royal family and press. They know it is a very important instrument of power. It can help you to clear your image or let you tumbling down.
I guess what Meghan and Harris did is strategic. Of course she lived racist issues inside Backingham Palace but how can she criticise it? It is not an easy step go and point the British royal family as racists.
If they spoke with Oprah is due to a clever move. Now it is a debate inside the UK about what the hell is going on with the royals. Which is more credible? Meghan or the royals?
If she did this during her time in UK nobody would believe it. But this interview in the US leaving from the royal family says it all. The British press would probably hide it because is a shame but they wouldn't share it with the world.
So here is more guilty the press/media stuff despite all the racist issues we will looking forward in the next months.

I would still regard it as a necessary evil, at best.

@Tzeentch

Thomas Hobbes in the Leviathan said: Homo humini lupus. I don't like the government idea either but as you said is somehow necessarily because we the humans tend to be so selfish or even dangerous to others. More than an evil, it is a beast in an uncontrolled behaviour. That's the most intriguing paradox.
The government can help you to solving problems or... It is them who create those.

Freedom is not absence of government. People are much free-er for the sake of legitimate institutions!

@counterpunch

Well it depends a lot of the quality of government we are talking about. I respect your point of view but is so optimistic and positive towards the leviathan. If we are "free" (nobody actually can say is free since the moment you are thought with a status quo as a child) is due to the level of ethics from the individuals not the government. Governors are just there to increase their personal profit not the common.
It is true in some part that anarchy and some system without the leviathan is flawed because we the humans need an authority to control us. But... That authority in the most of cases are even worse than the human selfishness. I guess we just overrated the modern states since Westfalia peace. It looks like we don't have any other solution... Why not?

Free/secularism education

As @NOS4A2 previously said If a neighbor told us we need to make a compulsory contribution to their revenue we’d cry “Extortion!”. But when the government does it we call it “taxes”.

It is legal robbery, plain and simple.

As @Tom Storm also previously said:
I don't mind paying taxes. I live in a community.

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes


Here is the ethical debate about taxes. Which side you want choose? Here is the thread Taxes.

But the only laws required are the ones that defend human rights and limit state power

who makes the law, cheats. never forget it.

As I said all will make sense in due time. This is hopefully where it will do so. The abolishment of corrupt institutions must start with religion. Religion is possibly the worst invention of humankind and it has lasted longer than any other

@CallMeDirac

Do not forget the State. They both are leviathans. I guess one cannot live without the other. If you think how much power they have it is even scary

This can be done through education and debates, but these so far have failed. We must not stay in the minority for any longer and must RISE UP AND TAKE POWER

Revolution in this era? Sorry millennials love live so easily in Instagram or Twitter. Does not matter how much the world is tumbling down.

Things like a major hunk of your country deciding to secede (Catalan, perhaps?) might contribute to collective unhappiness

@Bitter Crank

A few years ago I would tell you "I wish they do not being independent from us" but how it looks like now... I want them completely apart. Spain already has a lot of problems, we do not have time for selfish people and its own interest. The State is wasting so much resources and time with them. Probably the best solution is let them go...

If that figure is truly reflective of the UK's level of happiness, then it's probably the case that they just aren't paying attention. Have they not noticed the negative consequences of Brexit?

I do not know haw bad can be. It is true leaving from the EU (at least they can do it...) it wasn't the best idea. Nevertheless we are having different circumstances here. Probably UK will start losing some money due to the agreements with EU but I guess in the long-term would be a totally different scenario. Also they have the British pound which is a very powerful currency.
Despite all tbe economic stuff... Isn't it very sad that a country which fought for freedom back in WWII let the European Union? I guess yes. It is not only guilty the UK. We have to look at Eurpean Bank and German monopoly.

This included teaching literary, music, and art appreciation because a well-rounded education means well-rounded individuals.

My life is devoted to an intellectual revolution and reestablishing the liberty we once had.

@Athena

Yes. Of course it is. When you have well-rounded education you not only have well rounded individuals but more empathy and lack of violence in the streets. We both are agree that everything that can create beautiful things need a previous solid educational system. You in the US are not only. Here in Europe is the same. They do not teach you how to be a well-rounded person they teach how to work.
Also, I am focus in a search of freedom/intellectual revolution with education. To be honest sometimes it is difficult find persons who wants to improve their knowledge like you or the members in this forum. Because it is so easier not asking anything when you are being paid for someone. They (the State) are clever because they developed an interesting leviathan: if at least we can make you an employee you will be happy because salary is everything. Without it you are not longer in the capitalism era
So, most of the people ask for a job not how to be a good person in society or the pursuit of happiness. We are not longer in the Greek era that's true. Spinoza is guilty for changing everything back in the overrated period of time called as enlightenment

But... Here we are someone like us. Nothing is totally lost. We can change for better. This is a properly use of internet and its data. We can do it but it takes a lot of change.

Because of the Euro you had to follow a monetary policy that would never work for you, because you had another economy. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes. It is a monetary policy that obviously doesn’t work for the Mediterranean countries but somehow this is a big win for Germany. They wanted something like this. Most of the countries divided and a flawed except them or some nordic nordic countries. That’s all.
But... they are not only guilty in this problem. My governors only put investment in tourism and that’s a big fail

The answer... the private. The proof... look no further than the pandemic response. — creativesoul

Agree. Literally private and money preferences are taking advantage of other countries. Look at Israel he is paying to their own benefits and then they had a huge number of vaccines. Many European countries are negotiating with Russia trying to buy Sputnik instead of some consensus.
Pandemic showed us how selfish the government are.

The Euro was a very bad deal for the south. — ChatteringMonkey

We don’t have any other solution. It is bad but it could be worse...

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something. — synthesis

Yes because somehow this motivates us. Nevertheless it looks like some citizens of some countries have a solid path in the meaningful life not like others (we do not count China because yes it is flawed).

China at 93%? — ChatteringMonkey

Yes it is true this is hard to believe this is why I didn’t want mention Asian countries because tend to overrate everything.

I've been to Spain multiple times, and didn't have the impression that people were fundamentally more unhappy. Spain has been through a rough patch lately to be sure, with lots of unemployment and lack of perspective in general, but these numbers seem exaggerated. — ChatteringMonkey

Truste me they are not. You have a perspective of us because you visited my country multiple times but remember just for tourism. It is important to emphasise that touristic countries tend to make an unrealistic mask just to attract a lot of people (Spain does it) I don’t know which territories you visited but I guess the common ones as Andalucía or another Mediterranean beach. Well yes they are happy more they have to because we are in a mess. I don’t even understand my own compatriots but it seems very legit the 38 %.
I was buying some stuff in a market and a random dude asked us: “do you have some coins?” And then some woman replied “I wish I could give you some coins but I earn 400 € at month”
This made me feel sad my own country man...

Maybe the question of meaning is hitting Spain especially hard now because it is traditional more Catholic than the rest of Europe and late to the secular party? And so it hasn't had the time to deal with this question of meaning for a secular point of view? — ChatteringMonkey

Well it is not as Catholic as looks like. XIX Spain was so secular. But Franco wining the civil war put another history in the books...