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Filosofía de la lengua española.Ante todo, gracias por responder Lionino. Lo agradezco.
No he leído "Sense and Sensibilia", o cualquiera obra de Austin, talvez puedas enseñarme; — Lionino
Entiendo. Mira, aquí está el link a su PDF gratuito: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/download/3620/Sense and Sensibilia - Austin.pdf @Antony Nickles nos los pasó de forma gratuita hace unos meses, y hay una entera conversación empezada por Banno qué a lo mejor te puede interesar.
Si queremos decir que una palabra "no es ambigua", en el contexto de Austin, ¿qué significa exactamente? — Lionino
Tal y cómo yo comprendí, Austin clasifica algunas palabras como no ambiguas, porqué por sí solas no crean confusión en la mayoría de los hablantes. Él (Austin) uso cómo ejemplo la palabra "real". Siguiendo su tesis, sugiere que la mayoría de nosotros tiene una noción básica de lo que significa real y se utiliza en casi todos los contextos posibles. No ocurre así con algunas palabras, como "sublime" la cual es muy ambigua, y rara vez comprendida por la mayoría de los interlocutores.
Más o menos ese eso lo que he sacado de Austin. No obstante, no me hagas mucho caso :sweat: A lo mejor he perdido algo en el camino...
Porque, bien, un interlocutor A puede decir que "Papá Noel es real" y "Naves en el Triángulo de las Bermudas desaparecen", y mucha gente cuestionará "¿Pero real en qué sentido? ¿Es basado en una persona real, o es real como una idea, o real en el sentido ficticio?" y "¿Desaparecen cómo? ¿Desintegran espontáneamente? ¿O hunden en el mar?". Por tanto esa es una confusión que puede surgir — Lionino
Eso es lo que plantea Ayer, y a su vez, es lo qué critica Austin en su ensayo. Alguno filósofos han dado a entender qué ciertas palabras como "real" sólo tienen sentido en un contexto metafísico. Ciertas preguntas cómo ¿pero real en que sentido? sólo suelen preguntadas por personas que van más allá de lo básico. Sin embargo, para la mayoría de la gente, la palabra "real" se asocia por sí sola a su valor intrínseco al carecer de ambigüedades. Si Papá Noel es real o no ya va implícito en lo que es "real" para el sentido aceptado generalmente. No se van a parar a pensar si es "tangible", si se aprecia por los sentidos, si está en nuestra conciencia, etc...
Lo leí normalmente. — Lionino
Entiendo que sin dificultad. Interesante. -
Filosofía de la lengua española.@Moliere @Lionino @Philosophim and others who would like to enjoy this thread about the magic of Spanish language.
I was thinking about what to discuss now and then, a lot of poems by Gloria Fuertes came to my memory randomly. It is true that Gloria is known for writing children's literature. She was one of the main pillars of my childhood. Some years after, and reading her poems again, I realised that they have a philosophical (or "philosophy of language") content.
Os dejo información sobre ella (también está en inglés): Gloria Fuertes
*
El juego de las vocales (vowels) es muy curioso y hace que la mente esté atenta cuando están en cadena: A, E, I, O y U.
Todavía más cuando eres solo un crío. Mientras se aprende, creo que es más sencillo si todo "rima" en vez de unir versos abstractos. No obstante, esto no significa qué tengan menos calidad filosófica.
Por ejemplo, en este poema de Gloria Fuertes, los niños quedan alucinados porque cada verso termina en la vocal A. Se nota bastante que están esperando a qué el siguiente termine en la misma vocal, y así sucesivamente.
Este es el breve poema:
Nací en Madrid. Soy gata.
Soy gata neta y nata.
Mi comida es una lata.
Mi vida es una lata.
Siempre meto la pata...
Y nunca cazo ratas.
Me gusta la nata.
Aunque nunca hocico la cata.
¡Miau!
¿Cómo habéis seguido el poema vosotros? ¿Ha llegado un momento que vuestra mente esperaba que la vocal A fuese seguida de otra A? :grin:
La fonología se ocupa de la organización de las sílabas y de sus combinaciones para formar palabras y grupos fónicos. No abarca, por tanto, todos los sonidos que el ser humano es capaz de articular, sino solo los que poseen valor distintivo o contrastivo en las lenguas. RAE -
A Case for Moral Anti-realismGood and interesting points, Tobias. Thanks for this friendly exchange. :smile:
I just wanted to share the perspective using the legislation of my country and I realised that the legislation of our nations has common legal principles thanks to the European framework.
Here the "existence" of the mortgage depends on its record in the land registry. Even when the guaranteed amount is paid, the cancelling of the registry is needed. Because one thing is extinguishing the loan by paying and the other the guarantee on the house.
Article 1:149 of the Dutch civil code mentions that a marriage can be dissolved on a number of grounds. These grounds are summed up limitatively which means that only those grounds have legal force. The eradication of a registry is not among them. Therefore I can only conclude that under Dutch law the marriage is not dissolved. — Tobias
It is not dissolved, yes. The marriage remains, and the spouses maintain basic obligations, as we noted before. Our legislation foresees two basic procedures to dissolve a marriage in the 85th article of the Civil Code: the death of one spouse and "divorce". The latter requires a lot of formalities or ceremonies. Public deeds, spouses consent, authorisation by a legal public worker like a Notary or Judge and then... its record in the civil registry to prove the date of dissolution. :sweat:
Interestingly perhaps under Dutch law we know the figure of the 'natural obligation'. That is an obligation that cannot be enforced but is still there. — Tobias
Yes, I am aware of the existence of natural obligations in Dutch civil law. Our jurists demand more framework over these obligations, because they are there, even though it cannot be forced. It is true that some articles in the book "Obligations and Agreements" contain, briefly, references to natural obligations. For example, the articles 1755 and 1756 say: Interest is not due unless it is stipulated. A borrower who has paid interest that is not stipulated may not charge it to the principal.
The most prominent example of it is when a thief becomes the owner of a certain good due to the statute of limitation. Since he became owner the original owner cannot revindicate his or her property. Yet, the thief/owner is still under a natural obligation to return the good to the person he/ she stole it from. — Tobias
I like it. It reminds me of the figure of proxies and agents. When the principal resolves the authorisation to act in his name, those have the natural obligation to return him the deed where the authorisation is. -
A Case for Moral Anti-realismSay a nuclear weapon wipes out all the registries, then there is no evidence of my marriage anymore, but I am still married. I still have the legal obligation to care for my partner. There is just no evidence for the marriage and if I walk away from my obligation it cannot be enforced by a court. That though does not make the obligation somehow disappear, or the marriage somehow annulled. — Tobias
Sorry to intrude myself in your debate, but since I am also a law graduate and I work for the land registry in Madrid, I think I can make some useful points:
As you previously stated, Tobias, it depends on the legislation we are taking into account, but since you and I live under the "umbrella" of the European Union, there is a basic principle: the company does not exist if it is not recorded. If the company is not recorded, it becomes irregular and the stakeholders respond with their goods and not with the company's goods. I mean, without a registration, the company lacks of "affectio societatis"
On marriage and its registration. It is interesting that you state that if the civil records get destroyed, the marriage remains.
Well, yes and no...
It is obvious that you still have some obligations to your spouse, but your marriage becomes "insufficient" as the legal codes of my country says. Specifically, the 61st of the Spanish Civil Code says: For the acknowledgment of the marriage it ought to be recorded in the civil registry.
If it is not registered, or you lack some certificate, you can lose some advantages. For example, in terms of taxes, it cannot be proven you are a family unit. In terms of perceiving a pension from the state, there could be problems of evidence that marriage existed, etc.
With the aim of preventing unfair results, the Civil Code provides basic rights and principles between spouses, but these are very basic.
So, more or less, your marriage remains, but it is insufficient. I would say it mainly exists between you and your spouse, not to the state, me (if I am a creditor) or the judges. -
What would you order for your last meal?Wow! What to drink? — frank
Water. :smile:
I don't like alcohol because I got hooked a few years ago. But I am open to drinking sake or wine often. -
What would you order for your last meal?
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Some Thoughts on Human ExistenceI think a suicidal person doesn't think "he should die" but "he wants to die," which, I guess, is pretty different. Should die reminds me of a big overwhelming. Like if someone is regretted for past actions or suffers from a guilty feeling, and the only escape is to commit suicide. This has often happened with Samurai committing "seppuku." But that's not the usual case. I no longer see suicide as a rare fact... Their rates are higher than ever.
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Some Thoughts on Human ExistenceBut its rare that anyone in any stage of their healthy life thinks they should die. — Philosophim
Why is it rare? I think you are misunderstanding "should" with wish. There are an important number of people out there who are healthy but wish to die for many reasons. -
Some Thoughts on Human ExistenceJust playing devil's advocate with some more 'scary' thoughts... — jasonm
You feel a lot of anxiety about trying to get attached to life as much as you can. Your thoughts are not "scary." You feel the overwhelming thought of realising that, sooner or later, we will all leave this world without being aware of it. There will be neither a trace nor an "afterlife." -
Some Thoughts on Human ExistenceLooking to the future, there is then an infinity of time ahead of us in which we don't exist. Isn't this also a scary thought? — jasonm
No, it is not. It is actually soothing. If there could be an infinity of time ahead of us in which we don't exist, we would get rid of a lot of pain for a long time then. Without existence, there is no awareness of despair. I think you might see both scenarios as "scary" because you seem to be very attached to life, and the consciousness of staying alive. -
Is communism an experiment?Is democracy a grand but failed experiment? — Tom Storm
:up:
Democracy is just an outrageous collective despair... -
Eliminating Decision Problem UndecidabilityI wondered if it wasn't my ignorance of the topic that didn't allow me to follow the conversation. — Lionino
Same here. I remember I took part in one of @PL Olcott' s threads when he focused on 'Carol' (yes/no incorrect questions. Here). I did my best arguing with him, but he always twisted the words with the aim of making circular points. I ended up with the conclusion that it was actually my fault for not being capable of following his points. I felt very ignorant about myself. -
Finding a Suitable PartnerHow a discussion about doing the dishes will lead to divorce is because people just keep adding oil to the fire. — Benkei
Yeah, but what I have never understood is why those kinds of couples are still together despite they keep adding oil to the fire. It seemed to me that they just "love" that. The thorny feeling of constant confrontation... -
Finding a Suitable PartnerYou'll find your partner unexpectedly. — L'éléphant
I agree. But that might mean @Bob Ross would have to stop finding a suitable partner. So, the only way to meet a suitable person is to stop looking for her (him), because she (he) will show up unexpectedly.
Hmm... is this a paradox? -
Filosofía de la lengua española.Justifico mi afirmación a partir del principio de que una cosa causa la otra (luego la otra es consecuencia de la cosa), y, si no sabe el paradero de alguien, no solamente no se sabe si vive o descansa en paz pero se sabe nada sobre la persona, si todavía tiene piernas o si le gusta la matemática. Desaparecido significa alguien en paradero desconocido, las consecuencias no necesitan de ser mencionadas. — Lionino
Sí. Pero a en el ínterin en que esa persona se encuentra desaparecida, surgen una serie de efectos distintos que pueden surtir consecuencias en su persona. Generalmente, cuando una persona desaparece sus bienes se ponen en administración y puede darse que el cónyuge, hijos, u otros perciban sus frutos, rentas e intereses. Además ni siquiera se pueden enajenar. Pongamos que el ausente al final vuelve porque aparece. Evidentemente tiene derecho a recobrar sus bienes. Sin embargo, de la definición de la RAE parece que la esperanza de que vuelva a aparecer se diluye, cómo efectivamente ocurre con la muerte y de ahí que los confunda (en mi opinión) entre otros sinónimos.
Es evidente que no puedo volver de la muerte después de fenecido. Pero si hay una posibilidad, aunque sea mínima de aparecer después de desaparecido.
No sé si es bien verdad que el adjetivo "desaparecido" sea monosémico... — Lionino
En esto me expliqué mal. Traté de hacer una comparación respecto del estudio de Austin en su libro "Sense and Sensibilia". Este autor trata bastante de la palabra "real" y en ella afirma que "siempre" tiene el mismo significado. Es decir, nos es ambigua, no da lugar a confusiones entre interlocutores. En mi opinión esto pasa con desaparecido en español. El significado no va a variar. No obstante, muchos de sus sinónimos si que lo hacen y son ambiguos. Por este motivo, en situaciones en que una persona se va a encontrar "sin paradero conocido y sin noticias de ella" la gente va a decir: desaparecido.
No creo que piensen en muerto/difunto porque la esperanza de que vuelva no se ha esfumado...
yo hubiera respondido que el profesor no ha llevado en consideración conocimientos básicos de gramática. Ni todas palabras tienen sinónimos, y las que los tienen, no pueden ser substituidas por sus sinónimos todas las veces, si no serían sinónimos absolutos. — Lionino
Pensé lo mismo que tú cuando lo escuché en la radio. Sencillamente creía que "ausente" valdría como mínimo cómo sinónimo pero ni eso...
En fin, los exámenes de nuestro país suelen tener preguntas raras pero este año se pasaron...
Yo diría que el complemento del verbo 'ser' es algo intrínseco mientras 'estar' el complemento es extrínseco; ejemplo: "Soy rubio" y "Estoy rubio" significan cosas completamente distintas, y sabemos bien lo que significa cada — una es una característica innata y otra una característica adquirida. — Lionino
Muy bien explicado. Efectivamente. Pero la movida sucede cuando hay que explicarlo en inglés porque siempre se utiliza "I am". Para esas dos frases sencillamente se diría "I am Blonde" y es normal que se líen al estudiar español en distinguir ambos.
Curiosamente, cuando un niño estudia inglés dice por ignorancia: I have 8 years old porque para ellos suena raro decir "soy 8 años viejo" (I am eight years old...) -
Filosofía de la lengua española.Hablo (Escribo? Leo?) español — Moliere
Lo más importante es que pienses en español. Ese es el truco. La inmersión (immersion) en la lengua. A veces yo he tenido sueños en inglés… Sé que puede resultar raro, pero sucede cuándo estás muy sumergido en una lengua. Mi reto es experimentar esto también con la lengua japonesa, pero va a resultar difícil :sweat:
Espero practicar española y filosofía en español. — Moliere
Genial :up: pero vamos a hacer todo más sencillo. La frase de arriba puede abreviarse: Espero practicar filosofía en español y el idioma.
Also I don't think there's an English equivelent to estar/ser, which is very interesting — Moliere
True. This is the main topic of the Spanish language, and I even think it could be an interesting thread about philosophy of language. So, yes, I will try to explain to you the differences between ser and estar. As you noted, there is no equivalent in English because the particle is always “I am”…
OK. “Ser” is an irregular verb. Its function is to affirm from the subject what is meant by the attribute. For example: I am from Madrid. You are a doctor. As a general rule, ser must match with the subject in number and person. Another example: Dos días son demasiado cuando hay un afán de por medio» English: Two days are too long when there's an eagerness involved.
“Estar” is also an irregular verb. In general, the verb “estar” is used when the characteristic attributed to the subject is considered by the speaker to be the result of an action, transformation or change, real or supposed, or is considered to be non-permanent, linked to a specific spatio-temporal situation.
We can define it as: To be in a certain place, time, situation or circumstance. For example: Estoy en Madrid (I am in Madrid). Mi pueblo está en Toledo (my village is in Toledo). Mañana estaré en Londres…
(I will be in London tomorrow…) do you see the dependent upon spatio-temporal situations? :smile:
So, ser is an attribute while estar is mostly an adverb of time, place and situation.
Lesson of the day done! You can play with your friends in The Lounge. :wink: -
All things CannabisJapan! Nice news for our Samurai lads.
Japan Government Opens Public Comment Period for Cannabis Reform
.Over the next few weeks, public comments will be submitted regarding the future of Japan’s cannabis regulatory framework.
We have been waiting a long time for this, (Antoniazzi said). It is a huge milestone for the global cannabis industry. Japan is the first country to approve CBD in food, paving the way for corporate companies to list CBD products in retail chains. Japan has had a rich history in hemp cultivation, with the production of CBD with little to no THC being utilized in Shinto religious practices since 2016.
But we have to be careful in Tokyo...
.However, it also introduced revised laws regarding illegal use and stated that someone in violation of the law could serve up to seven years in prison. Prior to the reformed law, Japan only punished violations for import, export, cultivating, and possession. Euromonitor estimated that 0.12% (extremely low ratio!) of Japanese people consume cannabis illegally at least once per year, which has led to an increase in both illegal cultivation and processing. -
Currently Reading(Also, how do I enter italics on the mobile version of the forum?) — Jafar
The BBCode to enter italics on the mobile version is:[i] * your text * [/i]
Welcome to TPF, Jafar. -
Filosofía de la lengua española.Espero que no te importe que haya usado el traductor de Google para que lo lean nuestros angloparlantes. — Philosophim
No worries! Thanks for your help! By the way, I posted it in the subcategory of Non-English discussions, because we are now allowed to post in Spanish. Beautiful romantic language. Doesn't it?
I google translated for our curious English speakers. Its a little rough, but it seems to cover JL Austin — Philosophim
Exactly. It is focused on JL Austin's 'Sense and Sensibilia'. We made a comment on this text about this six or seven months ago. But I wanted to show that his theories also apply to the vast vocabulary of Spanish, and some words can be tricky. Like the word 'real' which is used by Austin. :smile: -
Non-English DiscussionsNon-English discussions in Spanish and German can now be posted — fdrake
:heart:
Wow! Incredible. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Given the fact that my native language is not, let's say, 'prominent' in philosophy, I appreciate that you have taken it into account. I appreciate it so much. I will post a discussion on the Spanish sub category later on. -
Finding a Suitable PartnerIronically, this pompous thread is on the main page while 'Kant's ethic is protestant' is in the lounge. Sometimes you will never know how TPF will work. Like the future 'suitable partner' you are looking for, @Bob Ross
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How would you respond to the trolley problem?
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What Are You Watching Right Now?@T Clark
Hey, Clarky. After having a good marathon of only Japanese films this weekend, I would like to recommend you to watch 'Warm Water Under A Red Bridge'. It is the weirdest Japanese film I have ever seen. It is intellectually funny, and the dialogues are awesome. Another remarkable fact is that it was the last film directed by Shohei Imamura.
I remember you told me that you had a special channel called 'Criterion' which includes Japanese films. I hope that channel has this film. I personally believe you will like it.
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The Process of a Good DiscussionAn AI is unlikely to correct such things because there is actually nothing wrong - but they sound foreign. — unenlightened
I agree. The AI is unlikely to correct or proofread 'argot' or slang words. It just proofread basic grammar sense with the aim of making my paragraphs sense. But I wasn't referring to this specifically. It is obvious that I always sound 'foreigner' because I have a lot of hiccups in English when I type. One of the main issues which burdened me the most is the difference between 'in', 'on' and 'at'. We just have one word in Spanish to include all those three: 'en...' etc. And other aspects related to gender, conditionals, the bloody 'going to' instead of will, etc.
(Estoy yendo al taller = I am going to the workshop.
Iré al taller luego... = I will go to the workshop later on...)
But I don't attempt to be a snowflake. Those tricks in English end up being controlled after years of practising and reading in English.
My point went deeper than just that. I personally felt that my posts were, let's say, senseless because of the criticism of my grammar. But never mind any more! Just malicious users typing twisted posts! -
The Process of a Good Discussion#2
I hope you don't take me wrong, but it is fascinating what occurred to me a half-hour ago. I wrote an email to Alkis in English, and in most cases, when the text is done, I like to check the grammar on web pages to make sure I don't make mistakes. When I pasted my original text to the grammar check corrector, the 'bot' or 'AI' answered: Congratulations! Your message is well written, no mistakes detected!
I couldn't believe so. I checked the text twice and yes, zero grammatical mistakes on my side.
What does happen then? Does artificial intelligence lie to me? Doesn't the bot or AI detect grammar mistakes from a non-native speaker? I have been drastically criticised for my poor English here. First, in the short story competition, and then in some threads. Very hard to follow, badly written and bla bla. It was clear (according to some) that those posts and short story were written by a non-native speaker, but that's a lie, and lying is bad. How did you know if they were corrected by a grammar checker?
I was debating with a malicious user about what a paradox is. I tried my best at debating, but the discussion was over because I was not comfortable typing in English, according to him. Here is when the malicious user gets trapped in his own ignorance. It is impossible to say to me that I am not comfortable debating in English if my texts are proofread by a grammar checker. But, I get it. I know I will keep reading similar comments if someone does not agree with me in the future. It is just some of you behave and post with malice.
So, it will not be possible to have a good discussion, because there are folks acting with twisted manners and malice. Be cautious! -
The News DiscussionWhy does the government of my country love to sue or accuse people and businesses worldwide?
Spain fines Ryanair, easyJet, Vueling and Volotea 150 million euros for hand luggage charges
First the President of Argentina, now Ryanair.
The Ministry of Social Rights, Consumer Affairs and Agenda 2030 has fined Ryanair, easyJet, Vueling and Volotea 150 million euros for “abusive practices” when charging for hand luggage. The penalty is based on the infringements of extra charges for booking an adjacent seat to accompany minors or dependents, charging for the transport of hand luggage, being “opaque...” -
Currently ReadingWow, that's interesting though, because Murakami has always been criticised for not being Japanese in the purest aesthetic sense. It takes me a while to turn back to him because his works are very deep. I know I will suffer a big sensation of nostalgia after finishing one of his novels, and I will miss some of the characters. I tend to get very attached to what he writes. I wish I could meet Aomame (1Q84) or Noboru Wataya (The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle) in real life. But I am aware this is impossible, because they only exist in the book, and they belong to fiction, and this makes me feel a weird nostalgia.
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The News DiscussionWe have to wait until September then because the ECB will do whatever the Fed does.
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The News DiscussionThe reason Wall St is happy is that it means Powell may lower interest rates a little sooner. — frank
We are expecting the same from Christine Lagarde here in Europe. I think she may start to lower the interests as well and try to control the price of money in a more balanced way. When the interest rate went up, it was unbearable for most families to face the paying of mortgages and this sense of anxiety is stressful. In countries with low incomes, like mine's, shrinking interests could be a 'lifesaver' for thousands of families.
Let's see what the U.S. Federal Reserve and European Central Bank will do this summer... -
What are you listening to right now?
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Currently ReadingFirst Person Singular, by Haruki Murakami.
There is nothing like coming back to Murakami after a while. Do you still read some of his works, @praxis? -
The News DiscussionI was an English teacher for many years. — Sir2u
I wish I had you as an English teacher in my school. You seem to be a very dedicated person and the passion for teaching flourished when I had some debates with you about English irregular verbs and philosophy of language last year. Honduran folks were lucky to have you. I didn't have a 'native' English teacher until I started university. Bloody moocow...
javi2541997
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