Well, my confusion is that "makes sense in the context of," is not normally taken to be a synonym for "is true." Is the idea that these are the same thing? Perhaps it "made sense" to sacrifice people to make sure the sun didn't disappear in the context of Aztec civilization, but surely it wasn't true that the continued shining of the sun was dependent on cutting victims' hearts out on an alter.
Yet the idea that our conversations and practices and generative of all truths would suggest just this. That "makes sense to" is synonymous with "is true." — Count Timothy von Icarus
Ok, did reality truly behave this way before we found it useful to say it is so? Either it did, and there was a truth about these "constraints" that lies prior to, and is, in fact, the true cause of, human practices (i.e., these constraints were actually, really the case, that is, truly the case) or else it was our own sense of "usefulness" that made the constraints truly exist in the first place. Or, did these constraints which shape practice and conversations actually exist, but it wasn't true that they existed (which is an odd thing to say)?
If practices are necessary for truth you cannot posit constraints that lie prior to practices as the cause of those practices without denying the truth of those constraints it would seem. For they only become truly existent when declared so in practice. — Count Timothy von Icarus
my individual ipseity would be bound to another that I do not experience, but the place I hold in the world would still be fulfilled. — Moliere
It is likely that my experience is based on living in an area with more gang culture than I was used to in the past. — Jack Cummins
I do wonder from interaction with people from gangs if part of the problem is such people's lack of sense of any real.personal identity and significance, which is projected onto those being attacked. — Jack Cummins
f truth only exists inside the context of human practices—is indeed dependent on them—what truths could we possibly be missing such that we are not omniscient? Wouldn't our (collective) lack of possession of all truths itself show that all truths aren't actually dependent on us and our practices, for how could they exist without our knowing of them if our practices make them true? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Did the Earth lack a shape prior to man and his practices? Or did it have a shape but it wasn't true that it had that shape? If man once again began to believe the Earth is flat would it "become flat again?" And if it wasn't round before man decided it was round, in virtue of what did evidence suggesting the Earth was round exist? — Count Timothy von Icarus
If all men died out it would cease to be true that man ever existed? So likewise, if we carry out a successful genocide and people come to forget about it or don't find it "useful" to bring up, it ceases to have ever occured? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Why would people find it "useful" to formulate such truths if they weren't already the case, and why does it seem prima facie ludicrous that it "would be true that sheeps and pigs could produce offspring just in case everyone found it 'useful' to affirm this?" This is the problem with the dependence claim. — Count Timothy von Icarus
There is so much brutality and violence, and indifference to violence often too. — Jack Cummins
The point being that these laments about the value of humanity and our ethical reatment of one another doesn't track so nicely to general societal attitudes, religious orientations, or competitive spirits as it does just to old fashion adherence to morality. — Hanover
. You can be individualistic and egalitarian simultaneously. — Hanover
doesn't track so nicely to general societal attitudes, religious orientations, or competitive spirits as it does just to old fashion adherence to morality. — Hanover
If other people were aware of him they would probably revolt — Barkon
if they were to perform bad in any of those endeavours, they would have produced nothing or the opposite. — Barkon
You won't sell a product if it's created bad. You won't survive if you do bad to your health. You won't create paradise that lasts if you're not good by nature. — Barkon
Well, are our current theories wrong now, and just not understood as such? Or are they "true" now and will become false at some point in the future? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Was the Earth truly flat when dominant practices and beliefs affirmed it as such? If not, the truth of the Earth's roundness cannot have been dependent upon those practices. Indeed, if the reality (truth) of things just is whatever the dominant practice/culture says they are, how could beliefs ever fail to be "pragmatic" and why would they ever change? We are always omniscient in that case, just so long as we don't disagree. — Count Timothy von Icarus
if the reality (truth) of things just is whatever the dominant practice/culture says they are — Count Timothy von Icarus
Since there are no facts outside of practice and language, it follows that there can be no prior facts that determine practice and language themselves. And, since there are no facts outside of current belief and practice, no facts can explain how or why beliefs and practices change and evolve. — Count Timothy von Icarus
the solution of making truth dependent on man leads to some bizarre conclusions, especially if man is considered to be contingent. — Count Timothy von Icarus
but any joy they got during that vast age was a part of something good they did. — Barkon
You won't sell a product if it's created bad. You won't survive if you do bad to your health. You won't create paradise that lasts if you're not good by nature. — Barkon
The information age is also a way of showing how small each person is in the scheme, with the exception of influential celebrities. The media have often looked to external signs of 'success' and not paid much attention to the inner life and the value of each unique person. — Jack Cummins
How so? Given your description, if our institutions, habits of checking evidence, and systems intelligibility change—which they do—it seems like the facts change, and so it absolutely could cease to be true that Germany surrendered during WWII, no? You say I am confusing inter-subjectivity with instability, but then seem to present an understanding about the truth of past events that makes such truths unstable. That is, current systems and practices become prior to past history. — Count Timothy von Icarus
If those forms of life were gone, the way we talk about truth would likely be gone too, but that does not make present truths vulnerable. — Tom Storm
Now of course, we might allow that all human knowledge is always filtered through culture, language, history, etc. (as well as human nature) but this does not requires that there are the ground of—a prior to—truth itself. For if there was no truth (no potential for knowledge, no intelligibility) the former couldn't exist in the first place. — Count Timothy von Icarus
So if man goes extinct, are there no facts about human history? — Count Timothy von Icarus
The culture of individualism gave rise to an inflated sense of the worth of the self, even grandiosity. It came with an emphasis on personal expectations, demands an individual rights. This was accompanied by a philosophy of being able to master and create personal identity through autonomy.
However, in the twentieth first century the culture of individualism is receding into awareness, especially through the media, of mass culture. In many ways, this gives rise to a sense of personal insignificance for many, especially those lacking in power. Certain individuals are treated as mere numbers, and the vulnerable are often regarded as a 'nuisance' and burden unlike in traditional society, in which there was a spirit of community. — Jack Cummins
I'm a little unclear what it would mean for something like Germany to not be objective. Does this mean it is not an objective fact that German surrendered in WWII? Is it not an objective fact that the Declaration of Independence was signed on July, 4th, 1776? Are there objective rules to chess? What about objective truths of arithmetic (which is often considered a "game" like chess)?
If they are "intersubjective" does this mean that if all relevant subjectivity changes, the truth changes too? — Count Timothy von Icarus
It's a wonderful life.. — Hanover
One of my pet hates is the mawkish It’s a Wonderful Life school of personal significance, which fits neatly with our culture’s romantic obsession with individualism and the putative power of the lone actor to shape and improve the world for those around them. — Tom Storm
The moral facts of (1) useless suffering and (2) fear of suffering are both (A) experienced by every human being and (B) known about every human being by every human being.
How can we show that it is a sound basis, rather than merely a preference, unlike the position of someone who acts without regard for the suffering their actions cause?
Such a person is merely inconsistent, hypocritical irrational or sociopathic – neither logical or mathematical rigor eliminates misapplication of rules or bad habits or trumps ignorance. — 180 Proof
Here's my secular/naturalistic, negative consequentialist shorthand:
• Good indicates that which prevents, reduces or eliminates harm (i.e. suffering or injustice).
• Bad indicates that which fails to prevent, reduce or eliminate harm ...
• Evil indicates that which prevents, reduces or eliminates any or all potential(s) for doing or experiencing Good. — 180 Proof
My own thought experiment is of thinking about how life would have been if I had not existed. It involves eliminating oneself from every aspect and incident in which one has ever partaken in. I wonder about how different life would have been without me for my family, friends and in all respects..How would life have been different for others without my existence in causal chains? — Jack Cummins
Democracy hasn't been voting for dictators. It has been voting for influencers.
Liberalism could still be the social structure that works best in the real world. But democracy has become detached from the real world and absorbed into its own reality show version of life. — apokrisis
This realism about what the actual facts are – what people really want and the scale of the surplus that exists to be shared – is basic to liberal democracy working as a coherent system. And it is the realism that has fallen apart in a big way. Voters are now entrained to the various brands of cultural make-believe. — apokrisis
fortunately wrong reading is unavoidable, so that life and creativity is possible. — Angelo Cannata
My perception is that superficiality is not just in uneducated people, but also in 99.99% of philosophers and intellectuals, which includes me of course. I think that what we need is some art of listening, which modern and contemporary philosophy doesn’t teach us so much, because it is made of enormous efforts to define, understand, express, instead of listening. — Angelo Cannata
Or something like that. I think it's maybe easier if you know some famous scientists to differentiate between the brilliant, and those who were also brilliant and seem wise. But it's hard to put one's finger on the difference easily. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Over the past decade, I've observed a notable shift in global sentiment—especially from my vantage point in the East. Not long ago—perhaps 10 to 15 years back—there was a widespread admiration for the West in my country. The U.S. dollar was seen as unshakable. Western democracy was often cited as the highest political ideal. Western consumer goods were considered objectively superior. And the broader cultural narrative—academic, technological, even moral—was clearly West-centric. — Astorre
Ethics is about, foundationally, value-in-being, and value lies outside of language, notwithstanding that I am speaking just this. — Constance
. If ethics is essentially discoverable, then this implies something outside of thought , addressed by thought to determine how to understand it. — Constance
is there something timeless and absolute in the presuppositions of an ethical problem? — Constance
But if ethics is entirely made in the matrix of language dealing with the world, "made up" if you will, then this is end of there being a true independent ground for ethics, and a radical relativism is all that is left. — Constance
I don’t see these as moral issues. I see them as policy issues. — T Clark
Do the laws and regulations that address these issues protect and serve the members of society in an appropriate way? — T Clark
I guess there seems to be two things. Whether it is called such or not, there seems to be a sort of social level morality being invoked, right (i.e., what societies ought or ought not do)? However, at the same time, societies are made up of individuals, and if they do not value this social morality and it has no claim on them then how does it apply? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Morality, as I understand it, applies to my judgments of my own behavior. How do I decide how to behave? — T Clark
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - William Shakespeare, Act 2, Scene 2, "Hamlet".
Anyhow, I believe the correct response here is: "There are more things in heaven and earth... than are dreamt of in your philosophy" - William Shakespeare, Act 1, Scene 5, "Hamlet". :smile: — Count Timothy von Icarus
Here’s how I see it - this is from Ziporyn’s translation of the Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi).
What I call good is not humankindness and responsible conduct, but just being good at what is done by your own intrinsic virtuosities. Goodness, as I understand it, certainly does not mean humankindness and responsible conduct! It is just fully allowing the uncontrived condition of the inborn nature and allotment of life to play itself out. What I call sharp hearing is not hearkening to others, but rather hearkening to oneself, nothing more.
This is how Emerson put it in “Self-Reliance.”
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it. A man is to carry himself in the presence of all opposition, as if every thing were titular and ephemeral but he. — T Clark
Why isn't veganism legally mandatory in all countries? — Truth Seeker
Yes, on the face of it, describing reality with a single system does seem to be far fetched, perhaps even absurd. But then, this would depend on one's understanding of reality - an ambiguous notion it would seem - as well as one's understanding of a system - which is exactly the question contemplated by this discussion - also, it would seem, an ambiguous notion. — Pieter R van Wyk
If anybody has any ethical questions, they can just ask me. — frank
How do we decide what should be legal and what should be illegal? — Truth Seeker
Many people are driven by prejudices. — Astorre
I agree with you. In this sense, philosophy is a dude who sits in your head and criticizes you. In psychology, this is called self-reflection (if I'm not mistaken). — Astorre
probably better understood — Tom Storm
...I don’t rule out possibilities, — Tom Storm
Are you saying:
that it is impossible to understand this thing we humans named reality?
that only cranks and monomaniacs can understand this thing we humans named reality? — Pieter R van Wyk
it's usually the hallmark — Tom Storm
that only cranks and monomaniacs can understand this thing we humans named reality? — Pieter R van Wyk