Does a p-zombie have intentionality? No, so it can't lie. Can it say something untrue in English? Sure, make the movements with the mouth that make those sounds.

No, so it can't lie. — Lionino

Isn't lying a behavior*? Also, would p-zombieland even have the word "lie" in its language? If not, then their language would be a lot different than ours, if so, how could zombies come up with a word like "lie"?

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-to-know-pathological-liars

Lying is definitely intentional. It's the difference between being misinformed (and passing that on) versus knowing you are misinforming the person you're passing the information on to, intended them to believe it to be true, or correct.

Lying is definitely intentional. It's the difference between being misinformed (and passing that on) versus knowing you are misinforming the person you're passing the information on to, intended them to believe it to be true, or correct. — AmadeusD

It's certainly intentional, but it's also behavioral. If zombies can't lie, then they're not behaviorally the same as us, which they're supposed to be.

Oh, I see what you're getting at. Yep, for sure I agree there.

Isn't lying a behavior*? Also, would p-zombieland even have the word "lie" in its language? If not, then their language would be a lot different than ours, if so, how could zombies come up with a word like "lie"? — RogueAI

Lying is telling something other than what you know to be the case (truth). P-zombies know nothing and intend nothing. So they fail to lie. They would also have the word "lie" in the language they seem to speak, but they wouldn't be thinking about the way they use language.

It's certainly intentional, but it's also behavioral. If zombies can't lie, then they're not behaviorally the same as us, which they're supposed to be. — RogueAI

Lying refers to both mind and physical action. P-zombies have no mind so "lying" is definitionally outside of the concept of p-z.
Behaviourally they are the exact same as us, definitionally.

Lying is telling something other than what you know to be the case (truth). P-zombies know nothing and intend nothing. So they fail to lie. They would also have the word "lie" in the language they seem to speak, but they wouldn't be thinking about the way they use language. — Lionino

If lying is a behavior, and p-zombies can't lie, then they're behaviorally different from us. I suppose one could argue that lying is not a behavior, but that seems pretty counter-intuitive.

What about my other question: would zombies have a word for lying?

I suppose one could argue that lying is not a behavior — RogueAI

That is what I just did successfully.

What about my other question: would zombies have a word for lying? — RogueAI

The issue is that you are not clear when you ask these question, leaving semantic broadness to be used to bring the argument in another direction.
P-zombies can utter the word "lie". Are they invoking the concept of a lie in their mind when they say "lie"? No, they have no mind.

The issue is that you are not clear about that.
P-zombies can utter the word "lie". Are they invoking the concept of a lie when they say "lie"? No, they have no mind. — Lionino

Suppose we have a world similar to ours was 50 million years ago. There are little p-zombie hamsters running around avoiding p-zombie dinosaurs. The p-zombie hamsters evolve into p-zombie humans. You're claiming the p-zombie humans would go around talking about lies and occasionally accusing each other of lying? How would their language have any referents to mental states?

Suppose we have a world similar to ours was 50 million years ago. There are little p-zombie hamsters running around avoiding p-zombie dinosaurs. The p-zombie hamsters evolve into p-zombie humans. You're claiming the p-zombie humans would go around talking about lies and occasionally accusing each other of lying? How would their language have any referents to mental states? — RogueAI

I am not sure how biological and linguistic evolution would be different in the absence of mind, and I don't even wanna think about it, but it is tangential to the matter.

I am not sure how biological and linguistic evolution would be different in the absence of mind, and I don't even wanna think about it, but it is tangential to the matter. — Lionino

If p-zombies in p-zombieland never come up with referents to mental states, then their language would always be different than ours, and their behaviors would be different as well, since their mouths would never be uttering words that refer to mental states.

The zombie does not know anything, does not feel anything, it does not think. — Lionino

If a zombie can't think, what do you call the activity it's brain is doing? If you have one solve a math problem and look at what it's brain is doing with a brain scanner, you'll observe it's brain is doing something. If that something isn't "thinking", what is it?

If you have one solve a math problem and look at what it's brain is doing with a brain scanner, you'll observe it's brain is doing something. If that something isn't "thinking", what is it? — RogueAI

That reasoning rests on the redutionist materialism doctrine that all mental states map to neurological states.

If you think there is a problem of other minds, the conceivability of p-zombies follows. If it's conceivable that other people than I lack consciousness, that's basically the same thing as conceiving of p-zombies.

That reasoning rests on the redutionist materialism doctrine that all mental states map to neurological states. — Lionino

The zombie brains have to be doing some kind of information processing. If that's not called "thinking" what is it called? P-thinking?

The zombie brains have to be doing some kind of information processing. — RogueAI

A p-zombie has some kind of behaviour triggered by a causal chain that starts in the outside world. A sleepy plant closes when touched by something. The plant is not thinking, yet it reacts to the outside world. A p-zombie would receive light, sound, smell input, and react accordingly.

A p-zombie has some kind of behaviour triggered by a causal chain that starts in the outside world. A sleepy plant closes when touched by something. The plant is not thinking, yet it reacts to the outside world. A p-zombie would receive light, sound, smell input, and react accordingly. — Lionino

Why would the p-zombies of such a world be discussing their consciousness?

Why would the p-zombies of such a world be discussing their consciousness? — Patterner

I don't know. It is you people who brought up all these pointless questions. I am just explaining something that can easily be searched up on Google.

The premise of the TE is what it is. Nobody here came up with it. We're just discussing the premise. A couple of us are saying it is not valid.

The premise of the TE is what it is. Nobody here came up with it. We're just discussing the premise. A couple of us are saying it is not valid. — Patterner

I don't know what TE is. What is happening here is me having to explain over and over that p-zombies don't have minds. And then people asking me about p-dinosaurs and p-evolution and p-art and whatnot.
Honestly, I don't know about p-art and p-relationships and p-politics. I don't care about p-zombies, it is a derivative issue from deeper issues that have been addressed plenty in the history of philosophy. See.

I don't know what TE is. What is happening here is me having to explain over and over that p-zombies don't have minds. And then people asking me about p-dinosaurs and p-evolution and p-art and whatnot.
Honestly, I don't know about p-art and p-relationships and p-politics. I don't care about p-zombies, it is a derivative issue from deeper issues that have been addressed plenty in the history of philosophy. — Lionino

I think a p-justice system would be a lot different than ours too. Intent would not be a factor in things, whereas it's a huge factor in ours. And would p-zombies even have the concept of punishment? Implied in punishment is the idea of being put in unpleasant circumstances to cause changes in behavior. "Unpleasant" doesn't even mean anything to a zombie.

What are your thoughts?

I don't know what TE is — Lionino

Thought Experiment.

TE is Thought Experiment. This particular one is about exact physical duplicates of us, but with no consciousness, which behave exactly like us in all ways. Including answering "Yes" when asked if they water conscious.

I say the TE is invalid. If they were only receiving imput from their senses, from inside and outside their bodies, and only reacting to the stimuli as the laws of physics allow and require, they would not be thinking of consciousness, or saying they have it when asked.

:ok: It's a dumb TE with the behavioural parameter. Without it, it's very fun.

I say the TE is invalid. If they were only receiving imput from their senses, from inside and outside their bodies, and only reacting to the stimuli as the laws of physics allow and require, they would not be thinking of consciousness, or saying they have it when asked. — Patterner

They are "thinking", in the information processing sense, the same way that we are. It is just that these thoughts are not accompanied by the same phenomenal experiences ours do (i.e. vocalizations, visualizations). Their thoughts may take the form of sentences ("I will take a shower soon"). They just don't experience these internal sentences, any more than they experience external sentences.

Do they think about consciousness? They would be puzzled by the concept, that is for sure. But so many here are puzzled by it too. No great difference. They might equate it to awareness. They are aware of external stimuli, because they respond to them, and they are aware of internal stimuli, because they act upon them. Therefore, in their "minds", they are conscious.

Would they have subjective experience or self-awareness beyond that of a robot that we can build that reacts to stimuli?

Do you think they would have beliefs and knowledge?

Would they have subjective experience or self-awareness beyond that of a robot that we can build that reacts to stimuli? — Patterner

By definition, no.

Do you think they would have beliefs and knowledge? — RogueAI

I think so. I think these are cognitive, not dependent on subjectivity.

I do not think a robot we can build that response to stimuli would think it was conscious. I don't think a bunch of them living together would come up with the idea of consciousness if it had not been programmed into them.

Maybe not. I was thinking of the case of a p-zombie living among humans.