The Abbassid were one single dynasty, not two dozen dynasties like in the case of Egypt, so the comparison is biased. But yeah, the Egyptians did really well for a long time (with ups and downs).So Roman civilization must have been even better, and Egyptian civilization that lasted a few thousand years, must have been the best. — Apollodorus
most of its cultural features were non-Arab. — Apollodorus
Most of America's cultural features are not American, if you go that way. — Olivier5
Correct. America is a mixture of cultures. That's why no one calls it "great English civilization". — Apollodorus
The same applies to the supposed "great Arab civilization". The Abbasid Caliphate was a mixture of Greek, Persian, and Arab elements. — Apollodorus
Most importantly, ISIS and The Taliban are militia war groups and terrorists, even if they weren't Islamists, who would want such leaders? Who would expect anything from their leadership? — Judaka
And were brought down by Muslims, who's state actually still exists even today. :wink:Sure. But the Roman Empire lasted much longer than 400 years. — Apollodorus
I agree with this. I think the obsession on things "Arab" is a far more modern issue and likely grew out of Pan-Arabism, which has it's origins in the 19th Century and was ever so popular during the 1950's and 1960's during Nasser's rule. I bet the Abbassids didn't think of themselves as Arabic. Islamic culture with a caliphate was naturally universal. And since the Prophet Mohammad was the first ruler of the Caliphate, the bond to a state is obvious in Islam.The Abbasid Caliphate was a mixture of Greek, Persian, and Arab elements. Islamic philosophy, for example, was based on Classical Greek philosophy. There were attempts to combine Greek philosophy with Islamic teachings, but that did not make it "Arab". — Apollodorus
The answer of course is the most successful Islamic nation that is still among us, even if it doesn't have a Sultan as it's leader. The Ottomans, the Ottoman Empire and modern day Turkey. The guys who actually conquered the last bastion of the Roman empire. — ssu
Oh please. Most of America's cultural features are not American, if you go that way. — Olivier5
I think your question needs to be tweaked. Not who would want such leaders, but under what conditions do such leaders come to power? A hidden question, is the US experiencing conditions that could lead to that kind of power taking control? — Athena
And were brought down by Muslims, who's state actually still exists even today. — ssu
I think the obsession on things "Arab" is a far more modern issue and likely grew out of Pan-Arabism, which has it's origins in the 19th Century and was ever so popular during the 1950's and 1960's during Nasser's rule. I bet the Abbassids didn't think of themselves as Arabic. — ssu
Give to Mohamad what belongs to Mohamad. — Olivier5
that synchretism was made possible by an Arab language shared by most and under an Arab aristocracy. — Olivier5
The Sasanian kings were patrons of letters and philosophy. Khosrau I had the works of Plato and Aristotle, translated into Pahlavi, taught at Gundishapur, and read them himself.
Under Khosrau I, the Academy of Gundishapur, which had been founded in the 5th century, became "the greatest intellectual center of the time", drawing students and teachers from every quarter of the known world. Nestorian Christians were received there, and brought Syriac translations of Greek works in medicine and philosophy. The medical lore of India, Persia, Syria and Greece mingled there to produce a flourishing school of therapy.
Artistically, the Sasanian period witnessed some of the highest achievements of Iranian civilization. Much of what later became known as Muslim culture, including architecture and writing, was originally drawn from Persian culture. At its peak, the Sasanian Empire stretched from western Anatolia to northwest India (today Pakistan), but its influence was felt far beyond these political boundaries. Sasanian motifs found their way into the art of Central Asia and China, the Byzantine Empire, and even Merovingian France. Islamic art however, was the true heir to Sasanian art, whose concepts it was to assimilate while at the same time instilling fresh life and renewed vigor into it.
The fall of Constantinople was what I referred to being "the last bastion of the Roman empire" to be conquered. And Turks then were muslims.Very interesting! I want more information. How does this tie into a change of attitude that began during 1950-1960? * * * Not exactly by Muslims. - It still lasted another two centuries before it fell to the Turks, though. — Athena
And in the 1950's Nasser and the military coup that overthrew the King of Egypt were basically nationalists and later socialists, not at all islamists. — ssu
?I think you are mixing up your dates, and Arabs with Turks :smile: — Apollodorus
Who reads history in other language than English? I read naturally Finnish, but even Finnish or German would be difficult to follow.As you must be aware, we don't read history as written by the Arabs. — Olivier5
Actually, the real bad guys are the Mongols during that era. Saladin isn't the great hero, the Mamluk Sultan Baibars is the great here.E.g. The Crusades Through Arab Eyes, by Amin Maalouf is interesting in that it present the Christians as the bad guys. — Olivier5
Also, it should be noted, that Kemalism of Kemal Atatürk was for westernization as a way to defend Turkey from outside powers and the religious aspects of the Ottoman Empire was seen as a reason for the weakness of the Empire.
The Persian were beaten by the student of Aristotle, and under Greek control for a while; so of course they assimilated Greek philosohers before the Arab... — Olivier5
The synchretism of al Andalus was not Persian in any way. So what was it? Spanish? — Olivier5
All available evidence points to the fact that in this period [8th century] popular works of medicine, agriculture, astrology, and geography were translated from Latin into Arabic. Many of these texts must have been derived from the Etymologies of Isidore of Sevilla and from other Christian writers. In the 9th century the situation changed abruptly: the Andalusians, who traveled east in order to comply with the injunction to conduct a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lifetimes, took advantage of their stay in those regions to enhance their knowledge, which they then introduced into their native country.
I was referring to the Egyptian revolution of 1952. the military coup that topple king Farouk. Egypt had already been a kingdom during the era of the British protectorate. — ssu
I'm not an expert, but I would agree. During those time when nationalism (& socialism) were the new in the Middle East, Islamism likely was seen as negatively, even if religion wasn't dismissed (as in the West).If Kemalism was in any way inspired by Ataturk's agnosticism, and Ba'athism inspired by Aflaq's Christianity, it could be said that these types of Arab-nationalist ideologies (inspired by Western thought) were against Islamism in state affairs. — NOS4A2
I think you are not paying attention. — Apollodorus
I did not want to destroy the Bamiyan Buddha. In fact, some foreigners came to me and said they would like to conduct the repair work of the Bamiyan Buddha that had been slightly damaged due to rains. This shocked me. I thought, these callous people have no regard for thousands of living human beings—the Afghans who are dying of hunger, but they are so concerned about non-living objects like the Buddha. This was extremely deplorable. That is why I ordered its destruction. Had they come for humanitarian work, I would have never ordered the Buddha's destruction. — Mullah Omar
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