But one should not forget that Russia has this phenomenon too. Just my point. — ssu

No, you made a comparison and then gave weighting to that comparison. Nice backtrack though. More grist for the laughing mill.

No, you made a comparison and then gave weighting to that comparison. — StreetlightX

Well, that's what I tried to say.

Do note that the wars Putin has started, the weapons projects he has established, the role of the military in modern day Russia. It's just a similar example, perhaps even more stark.

But of course, the US military industry is far larger. And going to get larger, thanks to this war...

This was more than 50 years ago, and the warning about the Military Industrial Complex takes in a little more context when your read these quotes:

I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity. — Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. — Dwight D. Eisenhower

Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/dwight-d-eisenhower-quotes

No, this is me:

India is likely to continue to import coking coal from Russia, Reuters reports. — Baden

People have to burn those hydrocarbons even if it pisses off Joe Biden. Dammit.

A picture's worth a thousand words.

... obviously I'll be also writing many thousands anyways, but for now I need to go do a little partying; forget about people actively trying to bring about World War III, if only a little while.

Drink up, the sun's going to explode one day.

Drink up, the sun's going to explode one day. — frank

We are in total agreement on this one.

Good to know there's more common ground than differences. I'll be toasting to that.

:up:

Yes, they do propaganda and we do propaganda too. — Baden

start babbling about any other bad thing — Baden

Funny how that works, isn't it?

So, you keep asking, what about our propaganda ("our" being the collective West, I assume). Well, unlike a lot of other whataboutism in this thread, this is somewhat relevant to the topic. So, what about it?

I assume that people have some idea of what propaganda is like in Russia. Without getting into details, the most important thing about Russian propaganda is that it dominates public discourse inside the country (and is surprisingly influential outside, but let's put that to the side). It is univocal, institutionalized and pervasive. There is no public accountability for truth. Dissenting voices are suppressed.

When you say that "we do propaganda too," do you see something similar in the West? I would assume not. (And please, let's not debase ourselves with hysterical exaggerations and silly conspiracy theories when arguing the point.) So in what way is Western propaganda similar to Russian propaganda? What would you even qualify as propaganda?

There is government discourse: statements, speeches, press releases, etc. There is discourse originating from from various political, business, activist interests. There are influential media. But taken collectively, they are far from univocal, and individually, none of them have the power to dominate the public discourse.

So in what way is Western propaganda similar to Russian propaganda? What would you even qualify as propaganda?

It has become exceedingly difficult to find what Russians are saying about any of this. Any view that could be construed as Russian or anti-Ukraine is met with censorship of the highest order. Anything that comes out of it is immediately deemed “Russian disinformation”, whether true or false.

Here in Canada, the Federal broadcast regulators have banned Russian media country-wide. All media is focused on the one-sided, pro-Ukraine narratives. It’s not even subtle.

If I were to have a vision for Russia, it might be a place where people wanted to go — jorndoe

My vision for every country is to be self-sufficient.
(Even if this means economy on the preindustrial level.)

I personally fear that the war will just continue for far longer even if a conclusion could be made earlier.
— ssu

I'm on board with this. There is a solution there imo, i.e. acquiesce to basic Russian demands with maybe a bit of face-saving negotiation around them. — Baden

Already 20 years ago, even further back, it was clear enough what would likely happen. At that point, the Ukrainians could have taken charge, acting proactively and in good faith and directly bring up the issue with both Russia and the West. I'm sure they would've gotten a good enough deal back then. If nothing else, such a direct confrontation would force all parties involved to clearly state where they stand.

The biggest danger though is that Zelensky hopes that the longer he draws out the war, the more there is a chance of some kind of accident or spark that gets NATO involved on his side.

It's already happening, as high politicians from some EU/Nato countries have, on their own accord, gone to meet Zelensky, and intend further visits. They also (intend to) send weapons.

It's as if their intention is to draw the fire to themselves, and then Nato will go to Russia.

https://english.sta.si/3014400/jansa-morawiecki-and-fiala-back-in-poland

To put the fire out. Do you really think there was some kind of moral equivalence between Nazi's using violence to round up and kill Jews and Americans using violence to stop the Nazi's? — RogueAI

This only seems just because the conflict roughly ended at that point. History is written by the winners, as is morality.

The Western colonialists won the wars against indigenous peoples, but we generally don't think of the colonialists as the good guys (even as we know that the indigenous peoples were doing horrible things to eachother).

Any view that could be construed as Russian or anti-Ukraine is met with censorship of the highest order. — NOS4A2

Not only that, but Western dependence on the media’s mass-produced fake news has reached the point where people believe that facts don’t matter. As one Twitter user infamously put it, “Why can’t we just let people believe some things?”

Fact and Mythmaking Blend in Ukraine's Information War – New York Times

Obviously, it isn't about "letting people believe things", it's about knowingly MAKING people believe things that aren't true!

Even the White House is using TikTok "influencers" (read NATO jihadis) to manipulate public opinion:

TikTok Influencers Get Spotlight in Information Battle Over the Russia-Ukraine War - WSJ

but for now I need to go do a little partying; forget about people actively trying to bring about World War III, if only a little while. — boethius

Great idea. I think the anti-Russia jihadis and trolls have grown fat enough to not need any further feeding for the next year or two. :smile:

It's as if their intention is to draw the fire to themselves, and then Nato will go to Russia. — baker

Apparently, this is technically called "conspiracy theory" in high philosophical circles, especially those frequented by men of great knowledge, learning, and judgement. Alternatively, it must be "Russian propaganda". So, you better be careful what you say ....

Not only that, but Western dependence on the media’s mass-produced fake news has reached the point where people believe that facts don’t matter. — Apollodorus

Hence adhering to principles of morality becomes of crucial importance in such settings where empirical evidence is not available or not available reliably.

Ideally, one's stance should be such that it is minimally vulnerable to changing empirical facts.

Without getting into details, the most important thing about Russian propaganda is that it dominates public discourse inside the country (and is surprisingly influential outside, but let's put that to the side). It is univocal, institutionalized and pervasive. There is no public accountability for truth. Dissenting voices are suppressed. — SophistiCat

Aside from the last claim (which needs only one example to verify it) you'd need to supply some sources for all this. It's no good saying "we all know..." as a counterargument to interlocutors with whom you disagree. The very fact you disagree undermines the assumption of common belief on the matter.

Does it 'dominate'? What would be a measure of that, and how would you carry out such a measurement?

Is it 'pervasive'? Again what would be a measure of that, and how would you carry out such a measurement?

do you see something similar in the West? — SophistiCat

How similar is 'similar'?

You can manufacture any argument by using scalar terminology and just setting your threshold wherever needed to result in the conclusion you want.

If all you want to say is that, put on a number line, Russian propaganda would be worse than the West's, then yeah, I don't think anyone could disagree.

But that's not the point raised in any of the arguments you quoted. The point they raise is simply that western propaganda is sufficient to justify doubt about the truth of the main narrative.

The 'similarity' is that they both fall on that side of the threshold, they are both sufficiently pervasive to cause justifiable doubt in what they're saying.

According to Western propaganda, Russia is supposed to be a "totalitarian dictatorship". But, apparently, a unit of Russian riot police is suing its bosses for wrongful dismissal after being fired for refusing to invade Ukraine:

Russian riot police officers fired for refusing to invade Ukraine take bosses to court - Telegraph

Meantime, Biden has called for regime change in Russia by saying that "Putin cannot remain in power":

Biden’s comment on Putin’s future ‘could complicate matters,’ says former CIA director - Independent

And Sen. Lindsey Graham (R., S.C.) said that Putin should be assassinated:

Lindsey Graham calls for Putin to be assassinated by someone close to him: ‘Is there a Brutus in Russia?’ - Independent

Imagine the international outcry if Putin had called for Biden to be toppled or killed ....

facts don’t matter — Apollodorus

facts don’t matter — Apollodorus

We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community#:~:text='We're%20an%20empire%20now,how%20things%20will%20sort%20out.

Imagine the international outcry if Putin had called for Biden to be toppled or killed .... — Apollodorus

When one has God and righteousness on one's side, who can be against one?!

And Sen. Lindsey Graham (R., S.C.) said that Putin should be assassinated:

Lindsey Graham calls for Putin to be assassinated by someone close to him: ‘Is there a Brutus in Russia?’ - Independent — Apollodorus

So if an American citizen calls for the murder of another American citizen, that is wrong, but if an American citizen calls for the murder of a non-American citizen, that is okay?

Yes, yes, all true. Despite that, the shunning of Russia may be the only weapon to actually bite home. Is it possible that Russian involvement in global economic activities had become so vital that Russians find it impossible to get by without it, to the extent that they turn on those who have brought them disrepute? Will the small Russian business that produced the top quality Woden jigsaw puzzles distributed across my family a few months ago as Christmas presents turn on the leaders who gave them the opportunity to sell their wares directly to us, only to ensure it was taken away? Has the exactly wrong approach? If the Russian regime is crippled, or even removed, as a result of mere economic sanctions, that would be a grand lesson for Chinese plans for Taiwan and the South China Sea...

Might this century be the one in which the growth of global economic interdependence brings about a world in which the fear of being shunned means that nation states finally renounce their anacronistic boarder disputes?

You should quote me or you risk going off on your own strawman tangent. I specifically pointed out their propaganda was more pervasive and extreme than ours; in fact, I'd say far more. I also already gave examples of our propaganda. So, which claim of mine exactly are you arguing against and what do you want that I haven't already dealt with? Do you object to the acknowledgement that we are also doing what they are doing and we make ourselves stupider by denying it, regardless of the relative level it's being practiced? As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't read the news critically, especially in a time of war, is a fool. I'm not going to change my mind on that because you don't like anyone not exclusively saying bad things about Russia. As for the charge of whataboutism, utter nonsense, my first and strongest criticism on this thread was of Russian not Western propaganda.

Does it 'dominate'? What would be a measure of that, and how would you carry out such a measurement? — Isaac

Number of journalists in jail, assassinated, beaten up, could be a good indicator. More generally, indicators of state violence against the independent press such as the one developed by Reporters Without Borders.

https://rsf.org/en/news/rsf-paris-russian-state-tv-journalist-denounces-kremlin-propaganda

Is it 'pervasive'? Again what would be a measure of that, and how would you carry out such a measurement? — Isaac

Number of positive media pieces and public posters devoted to the Big Boss?

Despite that, the shunning of Russia may be the only weapon to actually bite home. — Banno

If it does, it means that there was no Russia anymore to protect to begin with.

Is it possible that Russian involvement in global economic activities had become so vital that Russians find it impossible to get by without it

In that case, they had already sold themselves.

Russia's biggest mistake was to allow itself to become Westernized.

Might this century be the one in which the growth of global economic interdependence brings about a world in which the fear of being shunned means that nation states finally renounce their anacronistic boarder disputes?

In global economic interdependence, nation states are an anachronism.
Globalization serves only the rich and consumerism.

So in what way is Western propaganda similar to Russian propaganda? What would you even qualify as propaganda? — SophistiCat

You questioning or denying of western propaganda only goes to show the propaganda made by the advocates of our beloved western way of freedom, democracy, and humanity works out just fine. The representatives in the centers of powers do a good job.

We're not made for this, and I mean that in a very real biological and mental sense, to serve large abstracted entities called states with weapons that can flatten cities. We're supposed to throw a stone or two and maybe accidentally kill someone with a an unlucky strike. Everything more than that is just the horror of civilisation combined the failure of imagination to feel empathy for nations and its people because it's too far removed from ourselves and a system that enables sociopaths to rise to the top. — Benkei

:100:

Tech-based quarrels between abstract entities called countries tend to loose sight of the individual.

If it does, it means that there was no Russia anymore to protect to begin with. — baker

yet,

In global economic interdependence, nation states are an anachronism. — baker

Is the dissolution of nation states something to be hoped for or admonished?

So in what way is Western propaganda similar to Russian propaganda? — SophistiCat

Western misinformation is about a profit making media, less about government efforts to control the narrative. That's clickbait, not propaganda per se.

Putin's misinformation is a fog of lies. This is propaganda partly designed to confuse.

Number of journalists in jail, assassinated, beaten up, could be a good indicator. More generally, indicators of state violence against the independent press such as the one developed by Reporters Without Borders. — Olivier5

What number? Is one too many? (Ask yourself where Julian Assange is). Two? Ten? At what threshold of journalists in jail, assassinated, beaten up does propaganda become 'dominant', a category difference, not a scalar one? Does economic suppression count? What about private buy outs of independent competitors? Do you have some good reason to relate 'dominance' to the use of violence as a tool?

Number of positive media pieces and public posters devoted to the Big Boss? — Olivier5

Why 'the big boss'? Can an ideology not be pervasive too? If so, then what numbers would you put to it? The number of media pieces supporting the war in Russia (opposing the dominant narrative there) vs the number supporting it in the west (opposing the dominant narrative here). Do you think you'd measure a tangible difference, one large enough to justify a difference in kind, not just scale?

The fact that journalists who speak out against the dominant narrative in Russia are likely to be killed or imprisoned is a moral outrage. It doesn't, of itself, make their propaganda more dominant or pervasive than ours. That would be a separate question.