I don't know how you got that from what I said. — Bartricks
My point was that it is one of the marks of a moral norm that it is grounded in the interests of others. If I have a reason to do x for your sake - so, the ground of the reason is your sake not mine - then it seems to qualify as a moral reason. More to it than that, no doubt. But it seems to be one of the hallmarks
Well, you can't have an obligation to be selfish — Bartricks
the concept of selfishness incorporates wrongness - that is, to be selfish is to be self-interested when one ought not to be. — Bartricks
And when it comes to moral reasons, they are a subset of normative reasons. A reason to do something because it serves one's own ends - so a reason generated by one's own interests rather than those of another - is called an 'instrumental' reason, not a moral reason. They are both from Reason. But one is grounded in one's own ends - and so we call it 'instrumental' - and the other is not, and so we call it 'moral' (although there are other defining features). — Bartricks
:100:And when it comes to moral reasons, they are a subset of normative reasons. A reason to do something because it serves one's own ends - so a reason generated by one's own interests rather than those of another - is called an 'instrumental' reason, not a moral reason. They are both from Reason. — Bartricks
What kind of reasoning is it when an individual does something that serves his own ends because he thinks it is the good or morally right thing to do? For example, you steal food to eat because you think being hungry is wrong.
What kind of reasoning is it when an individual's selfless altruistism is generated by his own interests rather than those of another? For example, founding a charity that makes you rich. — Merkwurdichliebe
Instrumental reasoning.What kind of reasoning is it when an individual does something that serves his own ends because [non sequitur]. — Merkwurdichliebe
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/721614What about when a person does the right thing because he thinks it serves his inte[re]sts? — Merkwurdichliebe
What kind of reasoning is it when an individual does something that serves his own ends because [non sequitur]. — Merkwurdichliebe
Instrumental reasoning. — 180 Proof
What about when a person does the morally right thing because [non sequitur] — Merkwurdichliebe
Apparently, you don't get it. — 180 Proof
What kind of reasoning is it when an individual's selfless altruistism is generated by his own interests rather than those of another? For example, founding a charity that makes you rich. — Merkwurdichliebe
If you have moral reason to do what you have instrumental reason to do, then that does not make the instrumental reasons into moral reasons or vice versa.
For instance, if it is in the best interests of others that I do what is most in my interests, then the moral reason to do what I gave instrumental reason to do remains grounded in the interests of others, just as the instrumental reasons remain grounded in my interests. — Bartricks
Again, to be selfish is to be being self interested when one OUGHT not to be. So, if or when it is right to be self interested, it will not be selfish. — Bartricks
"Flatter" me, @Merkwurdichliebe, and show me where this conception goes wrongWhen an agent seeks to help her own welfare by helping, harming or ignoring the welfare of another, the agent does so by instrumental reasoning.
Helping another is only a means to the end of helping oneself.
Again, show me where this conception goes wrongWhen an agent seeks to help the welfare of another whether or not her own welfare is helped, the agent does so by moral reasoning.
Helping another is the end in itself.
Why did you say 'exactly'? I was correcting you. You think moral reasons 'are' instrumental reasons. They're not. — Bartricks
I was really wondering why you randomly brought up instrumental reason when the subject is on existential ethics. Weird. :chin: I suspect it was mere sophistry on your part, trying to prove that morality can be reduced to selfishness and altruism. — Merkwurdichliebe
You will always have to live with yourself. That's merely a fact.
It's the fact that you should always consider in making a choice.
Hence, a real ethic -- you *should* consider that you'll always be with yourself.
8 days ago
Bartricks
5.3k
↪Moliere But surely morality is primarily about others, not oneself?
If i have reason to do something due to it serving some of my ends, then we describe that reason as an instrumental or practical reason, not a moral reason.
But if I have reason to do something due to it serving some other person's ends, or due to it bringing about a just state of affairs, or ameliorating an unjust state of affairs, or if I have a reason to do something because it will bring about something of intrinsic moral value, then we describe those reasons as 'moral' reasons.
8 days ago
Moliere
2.1k
But surely morality is primarily about others, not oneself?
— Bartricks
I agree.
And, after you mistreat someone, you will still live with yourself -- knowing what you did.
8 days ago
Bartricks
5.3k
↪Moliere But what work is the word 'existential' doing?
Moral obligations are had by persons. So, one needs to be a person in order to have any.
And a defining feature of moral obligations seems to be that they concern acts we have reason to perform for the sake of others, or for the sake of the promotion of something of moral value or the prevention or amelioration of something of moral disvalue.
But there's no 'ethic' here, inasmuch as it is left open exactly what we are morally obliged to do. The point is just that when the ground of the reason for action is some consideration that is not to do with one's self - not to do with promoting one's own interests - it can qualify as a moral reason. — Moliere
"Flatter" me, Merkwurdichliebe, and show me where this conception goes wrong — 180 Proof
When an agent seeks to help her own welfare by helping, harming or ignoring the welfare of another, the agent does so by instrumental reasoning.
When an agent seeks to help the welfare of another whether or not her own welfare is helped, the agent does so by moral reasoning.
If you'd taken the trouble to read what I said on the subject, then you'd know that I do not know what an 'existential ethics' is.
But anyway, my point - whether you're interested in it or not - is that one of the marks of a moral reason is that it is grounded in interests other than one's own.
Make of that what you will. — Bartricks
one of the marks of a moral reason is that it is grounded in interests other than one's own. — Bartricks
If i have reason to do something due to it serving some of my ends, then we describe that reason as an instrumental or practical reason, not a moral reason. — Moliere
The point is just that when the ground of the reason for action is some consideration that is not to do with one's self - not to do with promoting one's own interests - it can qualify as a moral reason. — Moliere
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