I have shown why I disagree. — Merkwurdichliebe
Now, do you think that moral reasons are grounded in self-interest or not? — Bartricks
Moral reason generally has no middle ground and makes no exceptions outside the case of an ethical dilemma. — Merkwurdichliebe
If a person's moral reasoning tells him that it is good to be a selfish bastard that gets over on others, then it is the moral thing to do, and nothing can tell against it. — Merkwurdichliebe
The problem you and Moliere are not recognizing in this exchange is that you are reducing morality to selfishness/altruism. But these are only particular perspectives based on moral reasoning. And until we can demonstrate the existence of an universal and absolute moral code, morality as a matter of selfishness/altrusism has ground in nothing but baseless subjectivity. — Merkwurdichliebe
Well, first of all you never know how well or not someone sleeps. And then, it has to do with someone's ethical standards. I believe that criminals can sleep perfectly well, because they have their own "criminal" standards of ethics based on the group they belong to or are identified with. E.g. Mafia people place "family, "honor" and "loyalty" very high in their standards. And as long as they don't break these standards --i.e. their integrity-- I believe they can have a perfect sleep!The good man enjoys sound sleep but the bad man doesn't. It boils down to that. Unfortunately, it seems this is more fiction than fact - to be found only/mostly in novels/plays/movies that aren't, as they say, based on a true story — Agent Smith
[....]because God does not exist on high, will also not exist -- so why bother, if you're not immortal, to live with a code for a world that doesn't exist, that will not exist, and is even counter to the type of being you are? — Moliere
As it is, baseless subjectivity is the defect being explored. Dedication to principles for a kingdom of ends that will eventually be is one way human beings carry on, ethically -- they even convince themselves that if they repeat certain patterns to themselves that they have contact with Forms or Eternal Good or something. We're an odd, irrational species. — Moliere
But it's not a satisfying one, from what I can see. Who even understands it but a handful of nerds who like to read? — Moliere
Always with the flattery, You just can't help yourself — Merkwurdichliebe
If it matters for any reason, it is because: to stand firm on one's moral principles will prevent one from being a hypocrite, a pathetic wretch of a creature, worthy of neither love nor respect. Those people know who they are, regardless if it can ever be known or proven to another. Of course, this only begs the question: is this merely a relativistic opinion, or a universal truth? — Merkwurdichliebe
We certainly are odd. Its also why nerdy philosophers invent shit that nobody else understands nor cares about. And I also agree, that its not an edifying view of ethics. To be honest, i'm being lazy here. Compared to arguing for an absolute universal morality (in the Platonic sense), I have been taking the path of least resistance by settling on a more phenomenological perspective of morality (as you indicated). — Merkwurdichliebe
Being moral must include not just recognition of the existence of competing needs but a commitment to satisfying the needs of the other as well as oneself. — Banno
You will always have to live with yourself. That's merely a fact.
It's the fact that you should always consider in making a choice.
Hence, a real ethic -- you *should* consider that you'll always be with yourself. — Moliere
:up: Thanks for this! I'd never made this connection either. Taking both off the shelf now ...Totality and Infinity, and Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange, which I hadn't made the connection to before but actually is a great story for exploring Totality and Infinity since the main character sort of makes the arc which Levinas is describing in the essay. — Moliere
I think that from the existential situation it's enough to say that it doesn't matter if its relative or universal -- the choice remains. It's because freedom is forced on us by our very existence that we find these questions. — Moliere
I think even here that Nietzsche could say the same -- let the philosophers have their truth in their academies where they commune with the forms. No one is moved by these thoughts anymore -- objective or subjective, humans desire and do things from desire. — Moliere
No moral law or form could possibly hold sway, except on a small individual basis or, in the case of communities, with the use of violence.
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.