Culture is critical

Athena

I will use your post to explain education for good reasoning. I think just about everyone takes good reasoning for granted.

Hear is a very simple explanation of why we should not take good reasoning for granted.

It is not easy being human and the classics help us better understand how to be a good human being. A few prisons have used education in the classics to actually correct the prisoner's social problems. Socrates and Cicero and Jefferson and others saw character development as the most important need for education. Here as an explanation being human and is helpful in being a better human.

Education for democracy teaches us the rules for logical thinking and rules for good communication skills. There are many explanations for logical thinking. I like this one best because in it we can see how the Greeks came to scientific thinking.

https://medium.com/illumination/5-logical-rules-that-will-improve-your-reasoning-skills-instantly-b60b7bc64246

universeness

↪Athena

Hey, it could be worse, you could be a civilian trying to survive in Gaza or help others survive in Gaza. You and I will not organize that perfect world. Perfection can only ever be an asymptotic approach anyway, thank goodness, else a god might become a real emergent prospect. :scream:

You do all you can do Athena, which is probably much more than most would choose to.
Helping out locally, via volunteer work, is I think one of the best uses of a person's time you can ever take part in. The wee town I live in, has so many wee community help groups, and they are all fantastic.
Mostly retired folks who do stuff like, offer to run someone back and forward to hospital appointments, etc for free, phone an elderly person or a lonely person for a chat, help pick up trash on the beach, help clean up a local sitting area or a bit of forest, organise regular free or very inexpensive local events and social gatherings, so that people can find some companionship, and someone who will listen to their problems and see if they can help. Retired skilled tradesmen who will do some wee jobs for free, if you can't afford to pay, free IT support, from those with the skills to offer it, such as me.
'Men and women in sheds,' is a wee group that allows some folks to get together, and use their skills to produce some stuff, that is then sold in local charity shops or is gifted to folks who could use what they make, from a shovel to a bunch of clothes pegs. Folks who give their time freely to work in local food banks or help out in local support groups, depending on the skills they have. There are locals who grow a lot of excess fruit and vegetables in their gardens and allotments, they donate a lot of this to the local food banks and even the stuff that falls into their gardens and starts to rot, is collected by a local farmer and this helps keep his animal feed costs down.
I find that individuals who do take part in these regular activities are a lot more content than those who sit at home watching shit reality tv shows. Just keep doing what you can and where you can, but also remember to enjoy your wee swim now and again.

0 thru 9

Socrates would love your argument. That is the problem with learning the technology of rhetoric instead of being prepared for good moral judgment. That rhetoric can get people into wars they should avoid. Our sense of self-importance has gone crazy. We are as paranoid as Germany, suffering an extreme need to be superior and in control. That comes with education for technology. This is a culture change that came with the change in education. — Athena

Thanks. :up:

I’d put a similar thought in this way: a culture of people can either be a ‘dominator culture’ or not.
These days the word ‘dominant’ is seen as superior, but being a ‘D-Cult’ its strength is superficial and stolen… and extremely toxic.
It’s like a person growing rich by embezzlement; it may go on for years, but it is ultimately unsustainable.

We are living in a dominator culture (as you probably agree).

As a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with.
It is difficult to argue with because it is the logic of absolute power, the persuasion of guns behind all the complex and scholarly reasoning.

And to defy the Empire that rules the world, an empire that is now beyond any one particular nation, is a paradox.

It is a paradox because it is suicidal to oppose complete power, yet it is genocidal to go along with it.

This is why the people around us (and perhaps ourselves) are struggling to keep from slipping into insanity.

Athena

I’d put a similar thought in this way: a culture of people can either be a ‘dominator culture’ or not.
These days the word ‘dominant’ is seen as superior, but being a ‘D-Cult’ its strength is superficial and stolen… and extremely toxic.
It’s like a person growing rich by embezzlement; it may go on for years, but it is ultimately unsustainable.

We are living in a dominator culture (as you probably agree).

As a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with.
It is difficult to argue with because it is the logic of absolute power, the persuasion of guns behind all the complex and scholarly reasoning.

And to defy the Empire that rules the world, an empire that is now beyond any one particular nation, is a paradox.

It is a paradox because it is suicidal to oppose complete power, yet it is genocidal to go along with it.

This is why the people around us (and perhaps ourselves) are struggling to keep from slipping into insanity. — 0 thru 9

Oh yeah, I agree with you! If I were a millionaire I would rent rooms in a hotel with a conference room and pay everyone's way to our conference. Seriously, :broken: my knowledge comes from old books, and the only way we will the essential agreements to take action is to share those books. Not that long ago what the children read was considered as important as their ability to read. We did not fill school libraries with trash books because that is what the children will read. Today what is in school libraries is as bad as the junk food US schools feed their children because that is what they will eat.

If you read the old grade textbooks I have, you would see they are about teaching children how to behave and how to think. Again and again, the textbooks are about cooperating and sharing, and good manners. Not the aggressive and socially inappropriate books that are in children's libraries today. The word "civilize" means to make like us and our liberty depends on education that transmits a culture, that is education advances a civilization and how we do that was radically changed in 1958 because those put in control of education were those who are about military defense and industrial needs. Education was controlled by the people in town, not the federal government.

:broken: Yes, what you said "a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with." is absolutely true and do you realize how this is tied up with banking, and cities getting loans or not? This is not what the US stood for. :cry: I think we can turn things around. Our whole economy may completely collapse before everyone is ready to turn things around, however, if that point in time comes, if no one is prepared for democracy we will not recover. That you and the others here care gives me great hope we can turn things around because we are not the only ones working on the problems. We can unite and we can join with others and we can spread the word. Remember there was a time when no one heard of Jesus, and then just about everyone in the world knows the Bible story. Spreading the word and turning things around is possible. It is just a different story that needs to be told.

0 thru 9

↪Athena

Thanks for your wonderful post!
:flower: :smile: :up:

Athena

Thanks for your wonderful post!
:flower: :smile: :up: — 0 thru 9

I watched a show about Native Americans and have been attempting to see the world from the point of view of people who were here long before Europeans and the technology that came with them and continues to drive our modern way of life. I want to feel connected with Mother Earth and live with the purpose of caring for nature.

I am not sure if all matriarchies are better suited for democracy than patriarchies. I have read of many matriarchies and sports events they created to manage aggression so that it did not become harmful to the community. I think music and dancing maybe important to having social harmony. My my grandmother's day it was common to start a class with a song. Such as....

Good morning to you
good morning to you
We are all in our places
with smiles on our faces
and this is the way to
start and good day.

Are there any opinions about the psychological factor in music, song, dance, sports, and possibly art? All this would be part of a liberal education.

Athena

Helping out locally, via volunteer work, is I think one of the best uses of a person's time you can ever take part in. The wee town I live in, has so many wee community help groups, and they are all fantastic. — universeness

:rofl: I know retired who are shocked by how busy they are!

May I say, when women were expected to be full-time homemakers that came with taking care of everyone in the community. Of course not all women could get involved with volunteer work, especially if they were working on a farm where the whole family works, but she was to help all family members in need of help and by law could be fined if she did not. I have a 1941 Family Law book. Back in the day, there were charities but not government assistance and laws actually spelled out how family is responsible for family. It find it hard to believe how we have gotten so far from the meaning of family that every civilization had. This "I" come first and my happiness is more important than the family, so a horror to me and I am not sure civilization can continue like this.

The Old American Act entitles older people to decent housing, transportation, free education, and more but what goes with that is the idea that this enables them to continue to be valuable contributing members of society. It was never meant to support the notion, "me first". It was to support a democracy where we work together for the good of all.

Do others have notions about what it means to be a citizen in a democracy? In a kingdom, everyone expects to rely on the king, but in a democracy, every citizen has a part to play. This gives us a kind of immortality because our lives are bigger than just ourselves, and we carry the purpose of giving our best to the future and our nation. Everyone has a part to play.

universeness

Do others have notions about what it means to be a citizen in a democracy? In a kingdom, everyone expects to rely on the king, but in a democracy, every citizen has a part to play. This gives us a kind of immortality because our lives are bigger than just ourselves, and we carry the purpose of giving our best to the future and our nation. Everyone has a part to play. — Athena

Well, I did try to highlight examples of fantastic citizenship and community spirit, that I know for a fact exists in the small Scottish town I live in. Surely that and the fact that such is alive and kicking in 2023, should offer you some contentment that we have not all surrendered to tock yet.

Vera Mont

Are there any opinions about the psychological factor in music, song, dance, sports, and possibly art? All this would be part of a liberal education. — Athena

All this was part of my 1957-1965 routine public school education in Toronto. Plus domestic skills, health and hygiene, math, grammar, literature, history, geography and science, access to the library and extracurricular activities. A lot of the arts and after-school programs were cut dues to financial constraints. A friend who came from the US and later went back told me that her daughter who wanted to study geography at post-secondary level could not find a school in Chicago that offered it.

0 thru 9

I watched a show about Native Americans and have been attempting to see the world from the point of view of people who were here long before Europeans and the technology that came with them and continues to drive our modern way of life. I want to feel connected with Mother Earth and live with the purpose of caring for nature. — Athena

That is the important part of the message of the Natives and tribal peoples.
Earth plus us is a marriage, a relationship, a friendship.
The current relationship to the Earth too often is ‘take, take, take!’… which ends up being very close to criminal activity like slavery, theft, and rape.

Are there any opinions about the psychological factor in music, song, dance, sports, and possibly art? All this would be part of a liberal education. — Athena

Yes… part of life! Such mythical and creative things are celebrated in our culture when it’s a billion dollar entertainment enterprise. Pushing product endlessly… beer, soda, betting…

But what about the rest of us? We get to be ‘fans’ (boooo!) :confused:

Athena

That is the important part of the message of the Natives and tribal peoples.
Earth plus us is a marriage, a relationship, a friendship.
The current relationship to the Earth too often is ‘take, take, take!’… which ends up being very close to criminal activity like slavery, theft, and rape. — 0 thru 9

Years ago when women's liberation was changing everything and my marriage was grinding to an end I sought counseling. I had a sense that the problem was a spiritual one and counseling was not addressing this. Christianity was no help to me because of its tie with Satan and demons and the idea that Satan could possess a person definitely was not helpful!

I was born in Seattle, Washington and my WWII vet father walked with me in the forest. This is the kind of spirituality I desire but back in the day, it was next to impossible to get any information about it. And I want to thank you all for participating in this thread and all the thinking your replies stir in me. At the moment I am questioning my reliance on Athens that continues to exclude the Native American spirituality which I still hunger for. A PBS show about Chaco Canyon has me thinking heavily about these people's spiritual point of view. Animism is a belief about the entire universe being alive and some of the science I have come across is saying the same thing.

Are there things from Native American culture that should be included in our education? What kind of person do we want our young to become?

Athena

All this was part of my 1957-1965 routine public school education in Toronto. Plus domestic skills, health and hygiene, math, grammar, literature, history, geography and science, access to the library and extracurricular activities. A lot of the arts and after-school programs were cut dues to financial constraints. A friend who came from the US and later went back told me that her daughter who wanted to study geography at post-secondary level could not find a school in Chicago that offered it. — Vera Mont

Hold on to that memory because that is what I am talking about! I studied home economics and I did not question that I should find a husband, get married, and have children. I wanted to be a teacher like my grandmother but my father felt strongly about the woman staying home to care for the family and that I should continue with home economics education.

It was a shock to me that women's lib would destroy that value system and turn us into "just housewives" as though that is almost the lowest thing a woman can be. Just one step above a prostitute. Then I learned of matriarchy and some Native American tribes where women have value and are highly respected. I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture. How did the development of well-rounded individual growth become too expensive and focus us on education for military and industrial needs?

Are people who will never go to college being cheated out of the education they need, turning them into throw-away human beings, as we focus on those going to college and education for technology, not for humans? Do you realize, when we die there will be no one who remembers life as we experienced it? Such as living with a feeling of safety and not fearing someone will flip out and start gunning down everyone in sight, or children being gone all day and not fearing they will be abducted, or thinking we need strong men to run our nations because everything is falling apart.

0 thru 9

At the moment I am questioning my reliance on Athens that continues to exclude the Native American spirituality which I still hunger for. A PBS show about Chaco Canyon has me thinking heavily about these people's spiritual point of view. Animism is a belief about the entire universe being alive and some of the science I have come across is saying the same thing. — Athena

The universe is alive. Yes… that sums it up very succinctly!
We can’t wait until we prove it 100% to have this belief-philosophy-attitude.

In some ways, things are what we make of them…
If a large number of people act as though the Earth is dead matter… that’s what shows up.
And thankfully it can work (and did work for thousands of years) in a positive living way.

Daniel Quinn imagined a wise gorilla patiently teaching a human in what ways we are right,
and in what ways we’ve gone off the rails.

Reveal

”What happens to people who live in the hands of the gods?” (said Ishmael the gorilla)
“What do you mean?” (said the human)
“I mean, what happens to people who live in the hands of the gods that does not happen to people who build their lives on the knowledge of good and evil?”
“Well, let’s see,” I said. “I don’t suppose this is what you’re getting at, but this is what comes to mind. People who live in the hands of the gods don’t make themselves rulers of the world and force everyone to live the way they live, and people who know good and evil do.”
“You’ve turned the question round back to front,” said Ishmael. “I asked what happens to people who live in the hands of the gods that doesn’t happen to those who know good and evil, and you told me just the opposite: what doesn’t happen to people who live in the hands of the gods that does happen to those who know good and evil.”
“You mean you’re looking for something positive that happens to people who live in the hands of the gods.”
“That’s right.”
“Well, they do tend to let the people around them live the way they want to live.”
“You’re telling me something they do, not something that happens to them. I’m trying to focus your attention on the effects of this life-style.”
“I’m sorry. I’m afraid I just don’t know what you’re getting at.”
“You do, but you’re not used to thinking about it in these terms.”
“Okay.”
“You remember the question we started out to answer when you arrived this afternoon: How did man become man? We’re still after the answer to that question.”
I groaned, fully and frankly.
“Why do you groan?” Ishmael asked.
“Because questions of that generality intimidate me. How did man become man? I don’t know. He just did it. He did it the way birds became birds and the way that horses became horses.”
“Exactly so.”
“Don’t do that to me,” I told him.
“Evidently you don’t understand what you just said.”
“Probably not.”
“I’ll try to clarify it for you. Before you were Homo, you were what?”
“Australopithecus.”
“Good. And how did Australopithecus become Homo?”
“By waiting.”
“Please. You’re here to think.”
“Sorry.”
“Did Australopithecus become Homo by saying, ‘We know good and evil as well as the gods, so there’s no need for us to live in their hands the way rabbits and lizards do. From now on we will decide who lives and who dies on this planet, not the gods.’”
“No.”
“Could they have become man by saying that?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“Because they would have ceased to be subject to the conditions under which evolution takes place.”
“Exactly. Now you can answer the question: What happens to people—to creatures in general—who live in the hands of the gods?”
“Ah. Yes, I see. They evolve.”
“And now you can answer the question I posed this morning: How did man become man?”
“Man became man by living in the hands of the gods.”
“By living the way the Bushmen of Africa live.”
“That’s right.”
“By living the way the Kreen-Akrore of Brazil live.”
“Right again.”
“Not the way Chicagoans live?”
“No.”
“Or Londoners?”
“No.”
“So now you know what happens to people who live in the hands of the gods.”
“Yes. They evolve.”
“Why do they evolve?”
“Because they’re in a position to evolve. Because that’s where evolution takes place. Pre-man evolved into early man because he was out there competing with all the rest. Pre-man evolved into early man because he didn’t take himself out of the competition, because he was still in the place where natural selection is going on.”
“You mean he was still a part of the general community of life.”
“That’s right.”
“And that’s why it all happened—why Australopithecus became Homo habilis and why Homo habilis became Homo erectus and why Homo erectus became Homo sapiens and why Homo sapiens became Homo sapiens sapiens.”
“Yes.”
“And then what happened?”
“And then the Takers said, ‘We’ve had enough of living in the hands of the gods. No more natural selection for us, thanks very much.’”
“And that was that.”
“And that was that.”
“You remember I said that to enact a story is to live so as to make it come true.”
“Yes.”
“According to the Taker story, creation came to an end with man.”
“Yes. So?”
“How would you live so as to make that come true? How would you live so as to make creation come to an end with man?”
“Oof. I see what you mean. You would live the way the Takers live. We’re definitely living in a way that’s going to put an end to creation. If we go on, there will be no successor to man, no successor to chimpanzees, no successor to orangutans, no successor to gorillas—no successor to anything alive now. The whole thing is going to come to an end with us. In order to make their story come true, the Takers have to put an end to creation itself—and they’re doing a damned good job of it.”

“4
“When we began and I was trying to help you find the premise of the Taker story, I told you that the Leaver story has an entirely different premise.”
“Yes.”
“Perhaps you’re ready to articulate that premise now.”
“I don’t know. At the moment I can’t even think of the Taker premise.”
“It’ll come back to you. Every story is a working out of a premise.”
“Yes, okay. The premise of the Taker story is the world belongs to man” I thought for a couple of minutes, then I laughed. “It’s almost too neat. The premise of the Leaver story is man belongs to the world.”
“Meaning what?”
“Meaning—” I barked a laugh. “It’s really too much.”
“Go on.”
“It means that, right from the beginning, everything that ever lived belonged to the world—and that’s how things came to be this way. Those single-celled creatures that swam in the ancient oceans belonged to the world, and because they did, everything that followed came into being. Those club-finned fish offshore of the continents belonged to world, and because they did, the amphibians eventually came into being. And because the amphibians belonged to the world, the reptiles eventually came into being. And because the reptiles belonged to the world, the mammals eventually came into being. And because the mammals belonged to the world, the primates eventually came into being. And because the primates belonged to the world, Australopithecus eventually came into being. And because Australopithecus belonged to the world, man eventually came into being. And for three million years man belonged to the world—and because he belonged to the world, he grew and developed and became brighter and more dexterous until one day he was so bright and dexterous that we had to call him Homo sapiens sapiens, which means that he was us.”
“And that’s the way the Leavers lived for three million years—as if they belonged to the world.”
“That’s right. And that’s how we came into being.”

Excerpt From
Ishmael
Daniel Quinn
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/ishmael/id420055326?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

A fusion of tribal thinking with Greek and Stoic philosophy could be amazing.
I think the Tao Te Ching is in the neighborhood of that in some ways, and is a deep well of wisdom. :sparkle: :flower:

Vera Mont

I studied home economics — Athena

So should every boy along with every girl. I resented the hell out of not being allowed to take shop. Men need to budget, clothe and nourish themselves, just as women need to do minor home repairs. Whether they're married or not - besides, who says they'll marry each other? impractical to have two partners who can make pineapple upside-down cake but neither can put up a level shelf.

It was a shock to me that women's lib would destroy that value system and turn us into "just housewives" as though that is almost the lowest thing a woman can be. — Athena

Women's lib didn't do that - patriarchy did. Women who had no independent income were at the mercy of their husbands in more ways than just financially - more so if they had children.

I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture. — Athena

It brought its own young in line with the new world order your country had a major role in creating in the wake of WWII. Round individuals had been pretty rare before the war. Now, more scientific and industrial skills were needed, and a couple of other countries were already more advanced in those areas. The US had two choices: catch up and pull ahead or fall behind and lose its position as a world power.

Athena

Well, I did try to highlight examples of fantastic citizenship and community spirit, that I know for a fact exists in the small Scottish town I live in. Surely that and the fact that such is alive and kicking in 2023, should offer you some contentment that we have not all surrendered to tock yet. — universeness

That is a hopeful statement. I say that because I don't have a sense of it being true where I live. In a democracy, we all have responsibilities for our families, community, and then nation. We did handle everything without government when in 1830 Tocqueville wrote of democracy in America. That is no longer true. Even if we wanted to do something government policy restricts what we can do. I have heard office managers talk to a dentist or doctor as though these people work on an assembly line. Absolutely no respect for them as well-educated human beings with the liberty to do as they see fit. Teachers are so controlled by the government and the need to do paperwork it is amazing they continue to teach. We are coming on Christmas and people want to exchange gifts but if I exchanged gifts with a client, my supervisor would fear the whole program would be shut down in our area and she would get rid of me in a heartbeat. How we experience life today is not how we experienced life before 1958.

I think in rural areas people might have a greater sense of freedom, but they feel threatened and in the US we all seem to see government as our worst enemy. It does seem to be trying too hard to control everything. Our politics are now very reactionary and we are dangerously divided. I think this problem is connected to mass murders and failed marriages. On the good side, we are seeing problems and this leads to trying to resolve them.

Athena

↪0 thru 9

Okay I read the whole quote. Now I am going to back to bed to ponder it. Immediately I know, I like the notion that I belong to the world, better than the notion I am wrongfully alienated from a jealous, revengeful, fearsome God and that our lives were made miserable by Adam and Eve eating the wrong plant and God had to kill his son to save our souls. What an awful story that is. We are alienated from god and Earth and desperate to find acceptance, and in our despondency, we might find it necessary to kill everything and everyone around us.

0 thru 9

Immediately I know, I like the notion that I belong to the world — Athena

Good, glad to hear that! :grin: It’s a liberating feeling.
We’ve all been lied to, and have even repeated the lies that we ingested.
Now’s an excellent to to stop, beginning with what we tell ourselves in the quiet of our minds.

It was a shock to me that women's lib would destroy that value system and turn us into "just housewives" as though that is almost the lowest thing a woman can be. Just one step above a prostitute. Then I learned of matriarchy and some Native American tribes where women have value and are highly respected. I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture. How did the development of well-rounded individual growth become too expensive and focus us on education for military and industrial needs? — Athena

:up: :100: :sparkle:

Athena

A fusion of tribal thinking with Greek and Stoic philosophy could be amazing.
I think the Tao Te Ching is in the neighborhood of that in some ways, and is a deep well of wisdom. — 0 thru 9

]\
As soon as I lied down I thought of Sumer and the story of a wild man living in the wilderness being tamed by a woman in the city. The point being we are not naturally good and caring beings who live well in communities. We learn how to be civilized. Children who are not nurtured well early in life may lose the ability to love.

Reactive attachment disorder (RAD) is a condition where a child doesn’t form healthy emotional bonds with their caretakers (parental figures), often because of emotional neglect or abuse at an early age. Children with RAD have trouble managing their emotions. They struggle to form meaningful connections with other people. Children with RAD rarely seek or show signs of comfort and may seem fearful of or anxious around their caretakers, even in situations where their caretakers are quite loving and caring.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17904-reactive-attachment-disorder

Our Justice and correction systems are on the verge of dramatic change as we move away from thinking of people as being good or evil, to understanding why some of us succeed and some of us fail miserably.

Without this information about our humanness, Ishmael's explanation is like the story of Eden. We would all live in paradise if we didn't do evil. Totally innocent people destroy their environment such as the people living on Easter Island who deforested their island to the point they could no longer make fishing boats, so they ate all the land animals and finally became cannibals. Today we can estimate how many people live in a valley given in the resources of the valley but instead of learning to live within our limits, we rely on technology to meet all our needs. So like Israel when the population is greater than the available space humans start pushing "those people" out. This is more the mentality of an animal than a well-educated human being who chooses not to have 6 children.

You mentioned "Tao Te Ching" so I pulled out my copy of "Great Thinkers of the Eastern World" and Eastern philosophers have made stronger arguments for intentionally civilizing each other. This Chinese Buddhist philosophy goes with quantum physics and the possibility of multiple dimensions.

(1) All phenomena are mutually related and give rise to one another simultaneously. (2) The broad and the narrow are mutually inclusive without impediment; and one action, however small, includes all actions. (3) The many are included in the one and the one in the many, without losing their respective characteristics as “one” and “many.” (4) All phenomena are interpenetrated in their essence; one is equal to all and all is equal to one. (5) The hidden and the manifest complement each other and together form one entity. (6) Things that are inconceivably minute also obey the principle of many in one and one in many. (7) All phenomena ceaselessly permeate and reflect one another, like the reflections in the jewels of Indra’s net (a net said to hang on a wall in the palace of the god Indra, or Shakra; at each link of the net is a reflective jewel that mirrors the adjacent jewels and the multiple images reflected in them). (8) All phenomena manifest the truth, and the truth is to be found in all phenomena; anything can serve as an example of the truth of the interdependence of all things. (9) The three periods of past, present, and future each have past, present, and future within themselves. This defines nine periods, which together form one period, making ten in all. These ten periods are distinct yet mutually pervasive. This mystery expresses the “one is all, all is one” principle of the Flower Garland school in terms of time. (10) At any time, one phenomenon acts as principal and many phenomena as secondary, thus completing the whole. https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/60

That is different from thinking in terms of God's manifestation and good and evil like Zoroastrianism or the God of Abraham religions. Once the concepts of good and evil blend with our thoughts is it possible for us to think without good and evil judgments? How does it feel to think of the 10 mysteries?

Athena

Good, glad to hear that! :grin: It’s a liberating feeling.
We’ve all been lied to, even repeated the lies that we ingested.
Now’s an excellent to to stop, beginning with what we tell ourselves in the quiet of our minds. — 0 thru 9

Oh yes! I see this so much as I deal with terrible family relationships spinning off of the individual stories each child and grandchild has created to explain his or her life. My sister and I have very different life stories even though we grew up together. Not until her later years has she been open to my love and this seems to be fairly common. My oldest granddaughter is carrying a story about her life that makes loving relationships seem impossible. Daughters are frequently estranged. This seems a process of the daughters forming their independent identity and this personal stuff makes public education for good relationships even more important. Joseph Campbell said we need a shared mythology and our lack of a shared mythology leads to us creating our own mythology creating our family and associates as the monsters we must defend ourselves against.

How about you? I find Eastern thinking liberating. As I near death I am comforted by the notion that I am one with the universe, but also distressed about being one with the universe and no "I". If "I" do not exist does anything matter? But is it not that need for "I" that separates us from the oneness? I have an awful lot of thinking to do.

Athena

So should every boy along with every girl. I resented the hell out of not being allowed to take shop. Men need to budget, clothe and nourish themselves, just as women need to do minor home repairs. Whether they're married or not - besides, who says they'll marry each other? impractical to have two partners who can make pineapple upside-down cake but neither can put up a level shelf.

Women's lib didn't do that - patriarchy did. Women who had no independent income were at the mercy of their husbands in more ways than just financially - more so if they had children.

I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture.
— Athena
It brought its own young in line with the new world order your country had a major role in creating in the wake of WWII. Round individuals had been pretty rare before the war. Now, more scientific and industrial skills were needed, and a couple of other countries were already more advanced in those areas. The US had two choices: catch up and pull ahead or fall behind and lose its position as a world power. — Vera Mont

:rofl: When my X left so did the tools. Do you know how hard it is to make repairs with kitchen equipment?

I also resented the division of labor that was very divided by the Girl's Club and Boy's Club of my childhood in Hollywood, California. The clubs were a block apart and gender separated. But at the same time, I totally bought into the Dick and Jane family values. I believed I had to have children to fulfill myself as a woman and during the Hippie period, I loved associating with the Mother Goddess and being all things to my family, making everything from food to clothing with raw resources. I guess all that makes me a romantic.

Are you sure it was not women's liberation that destroyed the value of being a woman? I have been most viciously attacked by women when I speak in favor of traditional values. Rarely have men prevented me from doing something I wanted to do, but you make me think about this and now I remember occasionally men did draw the line but they have not attacked me as women have when I argue in favor of traditional values. Mostly I remember my college education and my shock at realizing my domestic language was not adequate for college-level work and a professional life. You have noticed this thread is in the lounge because it does not have the form that is the male standard. I was never able to give up the notion that we are meant to interact personally.

However, :nerd: excitement! I know my divorced, school teacher grandmother preferred the Alice and Jerry books to Dick and Jane books. That is hugely important because in the Alice and Jerry books a woman could be single and independent and those books were about learning phonics. While Dick and Jane books were for the sight-and-say method of teaching reading and the federal government's effort to stop the rising divorce rate following WWII. These differences have huge cultural consequences. About 20 years ago, a teacher was thrilled to show me the new computer and a story of the bully on the block being a female. The bully being a female is not something I consider socially desirable.

I am amazed you are aware of why the 1958 National Defense Education is important to our education and national changes! I remember the day it was enacted because the teachers were in a state of shock. I knew something big happened but had no idea what unless they knew we were about to enter a nuclear war with Russia. Fortunately, a male teacher told the class we were now going to be educated for a technological society with unknown values! Unknown values?! How can we protect our civilization and democracy if our values are unknown?

What are we protecting if the only value we share is the value of money?

Vera Mont

Are you sure it was not women's liberation that destroyed the value of being a woman? — Athena

Yup. The second-class, if not actually chattel, idea has been kicking around for quite a while. Read it in the Bible. There was no great value placed on women in American society, either, except when there was a scarcity out west and brides were mail-ordered, and during the wars, when cheap labour was needed in the most dangerous factories.
Motherhood was sanctified, of course : you got a bouquet and a card once a year, but no pay-raise.
It was the virgin-to-madonna idealization of women, and the corresponding tomboy-to-tramp denigration that the liberation movement most intensely wanted to abolish. We were not successful in every endeavour, but at least some progress was made. In the workplace, considerable progress. In law and politics, two steps forward to one step back. In marital relations and parenting, immeasurable - because in some segments of society, the change is producing much better relationships and healthier children, while in others, very little has changed.

Rarely have men prevented me from doing something I wanted to do, but you make me think about this and now I remember occasionally men did draw the line — Athena

They used to draw big fat black marker lines in big fat black lawbooks and ledgers.

but they have not attacked me as women have when I argue in favor of traditional values. — Athena

Why would they? Traditional values were all in men's favour. Southern legislators and incels want it all back the way it used to be. Some of the women who give you an argument over them may have suffered grievous injustice or bodily harm under traditional values. I'm not defending anyone in particular: I know some people can be overzealous in any belief, and I don't know what constitutes a vicious attack in this context.

Do you know how hard it is to make repairs with kitchen equipment? — Athena

Dind't have to learn. I bought my own as soon as I had a place of my own. (My brother didn't have to: he just picked up items our father carelessly dropped in the sand and forgot about. He was the one frequently pressed into service to that unkind man and felt he deserved some compensation.) When I got married, the merged household had at least two of every basic tool, plus specialty ones that one or other of us had acquired for specific projects, plus the modest assortment my mother brought. And then we made very enjoyable sorties to hardware stores and building centers together.

Fortunately, a male teacher told the class we were now going to be educated for a technological society with unknown values! Unknown values?! — Athena

Why would he, or you, or anyone need to change your values? As far as I recall, we had the very same values in home ec, chemistry and art class. We might have had a little less jingoism in history lessons than the older people had received, but that's about it. My school was still named after the odious Winston Churchill; we still stood up for the anthem every morning and cheating on a test was still punishable by suspension, while shoving in the halls or interrupting speakers on the stage were detention offenses.

What are we protecting if the only value we share is the value of money? — Athena

Your country got started by a protest against taxation and nearly tore itself apart over conflicting economic systems. Seems that's been a constant all along.

0 thru 9

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/60

That is different from thinking in terms of God's manifestation and good and evil like Zoroastrianism or the God of Abraham religions. Once the concepts of good and evil blend with our thoughts is it possible for us to think without good and evil judgments? How does it feel to think of the 10 mysteries? — Athena

How about you? I find Eastern thinking liberating. As I near death I am comforted by the notion that I am one with the universe, but also distressed about being one with the universe and no "I". If "I" do not exist does anything matter? But is it not that need for "I" that separates us from the oneness? I have an awful lot of thinking to do. — Athena

:smile: :up: Thanks! That’s enough to ponder if one were going on a vacation to a desert island!
Like the Hindu saying “you are that” (everything that is).
Can’t imagine getting much more liberating than that.
I will now go to a pizza shop, and ask them to ‘make me one with everything’.
If they’re clever, they’re say ‘you already are!’ :starstruck:

0 thru 9

As soon as I lied down I thought of Sumer and the story of a wild man living in the wilderness being tamed by a woman in the city. The point being we are not naturally good and caring beings who live well in communities. We learn how to be civilized. Children who are not nurtured well early in life may lose the ability to love. — Athena

I think I see what you are saying here, but I might make a small but important distinction between ‘civilization’ and ‘socialization’.
One can see amazing socialization in groups of primates, even in mammals such as prairie dogs.
They have no civilization of course.
We have civilization, but our overall interconnection and true socialization is in tatters, as you have suggested.
We are out of touch with each other, literally and metaphorically.
I envy spider monkeys and bonobos.

monkey_sacrific_1024x1024.jpg?v=1677263864

monkey_sacrific_1024x1024.jpg?v=1677263864

Vera Mont

I will now go to a pizza shop, and ask them to ‘make me one with everything’. — 0 thru 9

I have that teeshirt!

0 thru 9

I have that teeshirt! — Vera Mont

Haha! I have one that says ‘I reached enlightenment and all I got was this stupid T-shirt’. :blush:

Vera Mont

I collected them for a few years... That's part of our culture, isn't it? But I got too old to walk around wearing slogans. I still have a few souvenirs form the States. And Garfield. The rest have long ago become dustcloths and cat-nests.

Athena

We were not successful in every endeavour, but at least some progress was made. In the workplace, considerable progress. In law and politics, two steps forward to one step back. In marital relations and parenting, immeasurable - because in some segments of society, the change is producing much better relationships and healthier children, while in others, very little has changed. — Vera Mont

My biggest impression of what you said is that people interested in philosophy tend to be more civil than those who have no interest in philosophy. I think in general we are respectful of different life experiences and different points of view. I agree with us making progress when it comes to employment, but I also see serious problems coming with this progress.

Who takes care of the children? Maybe in another 100 years, men will be instinctively nurturing but right now the idea of leaving a very young child in the care of a man for more than a couple of hours, unnerves me. I think men can do better than women when it comes to working with older children. A girl who has a father who is like a mentor to her is most fortunate! But I just don't think the average man does as well with babies and toddlers as the average woman and I think this difference is physical and especially hormonal. For me, this thinking goes with believing in evolution and what hormones have to do with our behavior.

Who takes care of the children is very much an economic question. I don't think it makes sense to expect single parents to both care for children and support them. In the past, a single working parent often had a mother or sister willing to care for the children. That is not as likely to be true today. In the US we have been totally reliant on women staying home to care for the family and now she has to work there is no one to care for children unless she can pay someone to care for her children and in some places even if she can afford childcare, there is none. This is a crisis situation for the single parent. His/her very best is not good enough unless s/he earns over $100,000 a year. That is not a minimum-wage job and we are very resistant to the government providing childcare or any form of assistance. We want to hold parents responsible for their children but we also have agreed marriage is no longer required and divorces are better than enduring the unhappiness of a bad marriage.

I would find all that less harmful if Industry used the democratic model instead of the autocratic model. We could include childcare in the place of employment or subsidized housing. We are having a hard time wrapping our heads around communal living and shared responsibility.

It has not been that long since we subdued the wilderness. When I first moved to Oregon there were fishing, farming, and timber jobs, and not many machines to do the heavy work. It was a different world not that long ago. And with that is the woman being every industry a family needs, she made the soap, all the clothes, and everything else the family needed. She planted the garden and preserved the produce and cut the wood to be put in the stove she used to cook the food. Now here are some problems! Her parents married her off when she was 14 and this had nothing to do with love. It was survival and it was common for men to get what they wanted from a woman by being abusive. Your mention of the Bible is evidence of what is wrong with patriarchy. And there is little an abused woman with children could do to have a better life. Our whole economic structure was keeping her ignorant and dependent on the income only a man could earn.

I am not sure we fully appreciate how much things have changed and I am out of time for today.

Vera Mont

Who takes care of the children? Maybe in another 100 years, men will be instinctively nurturing but right now the idea of leaving a very young child in the care of a man for more than a couple of hours, unnerves me. — Athena

That's because of your mind-set, instilled by a culture in which men were alienated from their families, very much to the detriment of men, families and the culture. Largely due to the economic system: they had to earn money with long, working days, and hardly saw their young children awake. Moreover, the situation of working men was - and is - such that they suffer daily anxiety and belittlement at the hands of the bosses, have no control over the process in which they are a mere moving part and no share in the fruit of their labour.
Young women, still eager to socialize, to dance and laugh with their friends, are confined in some dull dwelling-place with one or more needy, pre-verbal creatures, all day, every day, doing drudge-work, with no outlet for creativity or intelligence, no prospects and no status. The man brings a battered ego home every night to a wife who feels trapped and resentful.
Happy nuclear families!

In less 'advanced' cultures, fathers, uncles, grandfathers and older brothers are involved in the life of the children and of the clan. Sometimes they have designated roles in the guidance and instruction of the young ones, more often it's informal: babies are indulged, cuddled and entertained; when the child is old enough, he or she is taught necessary skills.
In any kind of society, there might be healthier arrangements than the atomized western family. Child-care can be pooled in a community or or kinship circle, so that mothers get time off for normal behaviour and children are allowed to form a variety of relationships and exposed to a variety of knowledge, opinion and temperament, thus developing social skills.
Parents with no extended family can spell each other off on child-care duty, and so can neighbours - as many do now.
In a functional community, who takes care of the children is not an issue: everyone does.

I would find all that less harmful if Industry used the democratic model instead of the autocratic model. We could include childcare in the place of employment or subsidized housing. We are having a hard time wrapping our heads around communal living and shared responsibility. — Athena

That's *gasp!* socialism! Or worse... it was standard in Iron Curtain countries for work-places to have free day-care on the premises, where children's health and nutrition was taken care of and mothers or fathers could visit in their breaks. Capitalism depends on the lower classes having to struggle and scramble and fight over crumbs; the middle class to look down with trepidation and up with reverence. Otherwise, they might get uppity and start demanding rights.

I am not sure we fully appreciate how much things have changed and I am out of time for today. — Athena

Does that mean the liberation movement didn't devalue women?
Still, capitalism devalues humanity. "Everyone has their price."

180 Proof

↪Vera Mont

:100: :fire:

universeness

Comedy/tragedy/reality/humanity?

Culture is critical

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Categories

More Discussions