I think I see what you are saying here, but I might make a small but important distinction between ‘civilization’ and ‘socialization’. — 0 thru 9

That is pure genius comparing the meaning of those two words and I think your statement of us having a civilization but not good socialization is perfect. I need to write what you said and put it on my board that has things I want to remember. I think over time when what you said has time to take root in my brain, your thought will improve my explanation of education and culture.

All of us White folk come from kingdoms and all those kingdoms used the Bible as the center of the justification of their civilizations. What they did to "those people" and the earth might be scornful. I am sorry if some of you are Christian because I am asking everyone to consider what Christian civilizations have done and to contemplate what our democracy would be if the immigrants to the New Land had respected the aboriginal people and adopted the culture of the Cherokees. What if we grew up thinking those born to a land belong to the land instead of the land belongs to those who can take it by force or who buy the land?

What does it mean to be civilized?

Those videos are most enjoyable. For sure you stirred a lot of thinking in my head. I notice my reaction is very judgmental with feelings of disgust hampering my ability to be logical. To me, it is horrifying that a human being would be ruled by his/her feelings rather than reason. But I think many of us have a romantic notion of nature, and on the other hand, a very old eugenics book argues in favor of teaching birth control, so women will stop sending their husbands to prostitutes so the women can avoid sex and being pregnant again and again.

So much of my thinking today is influenced by an understanding of hormones and behavior. Addiction is a result of biological changes and our DNA which may make us more or less likely to become addicted. Without this scientific understanding of addiction, I thought addictions were a matter of weakness of character. Also, our sexual behavior is very much about hormones and relationships. Should a wife understand she should always please her husband, even though her hormonal balance means she is less interested in sex? :rofl: Surely everyone thinks of all these things after watching the comedy videos.

What might we want a child to know so the child can make the best possible decisions? How important is the math for today's technology? compared to knowing ourselves through knowledge of hormones? I surely do not want to start a family with a man ruled by his feelings at the moment and a need for alcohol, but when I was 18 I knew nothing about such things. :rofl: Even in my old age, those Roman soldiers in short leather uniforms tend to momentarily stop me from thinking of anything else. I wonder if at age 18 I could have learned in school the things life has taught me. Knowing facts does not equal knowing the meaning of the facts and when we are young our hormones are all about reproduction!

The higher-class gentleman impresses me as someone more likely to order his life with reason than spontaneously act on his feelings. Would this be helpful for children to learn? Does preparation for scientific thinking train the brain to use reason rather than acting on urges? Can we all be rich in knowledge and do we want to encourage this in a democracy?

There no practical reason that the study of math can't be applied in science, home economics and civics courses - wherein the first includes the biology of reproduction, the second includes consumer awareness and the third includes the assessment of campaign promises.

That's because of your mind-set, instilled by a culture in which men were alienated from their families, very much to the detriment of men, families and the culture. — Vera Mont

Oh my, you excite me so much! We need a good book about what Industrialization and war have done to our values and relationships. I worry that concepts such as exploiting workers, servants and slaves and admiration for those who get rich doing so are not so clear to everyone.

When the US entered WWI Industry argued in favor of closing schools as many countries at war had done. Industry argued it was not getting its money's worth from education because it still had to train new employees. Teachers argue it was our nation's very best who understood why democracy must be defended, who were the first to sign up to defend our democracy and even if we won the war we would be devastated if education did not replace these men.

Yes, it was common to man our factories with very young people who were cheap and if we closed our schools, that would end the child labor laws that took children out of factories during school hours. Vocational training was added to education at this time and this greatly increased the number of parents who sent their children to school so they could get better jobs, and it greatly increased the middle class as education led to better jobs, better working conditions, and better wages. The history of child labor in England is even worse because of greater poverty and there was no western frontier for the poor to escape into.

Yipes too much to say- Industry and war did alienate men from their families and modeling our Industry with Britain's automatic model is bad for families. In a democracy, people need Industry to use the democratic model. This would help families more than the Bible.

Young women, still eager to socialize, to dance and laugh with their friends, are confined in some dull dwelling-place with one or more needy, pre-verbal creatures, all day, every day, doing drudge-work, with no outlet for creativity or intelligence, no prospects and no status. The man brings a battered ego home every night to a wife who feels trapped and resentful.
Happy nuclear families! — Vera Mont

With the democratic model of Industry, fewer men and women would come home with battered egos because with the democratic model is constant learning and opportunity for advancement and respect for the workers' perspective that can be a big help to the overall operation. "Insubordination" is a word that does not belong in a democracy and resentful citizens are poison to a civilization. The reason for having a democracy is not only to fulfill our human potential but also to avoid the poisons of envy, resentment, ect..

As for the woman trapped at home and isolated- been there done that! It would have been so much easier if we had the Internet back then. I can survive anything as long as I can communicate with people who are like the people here. Without this, I was very close to insanity after many years of isolation and psychological abuse. However, I was able to channel my creative energy in constructive ways and loved the hippie movement that encouraged creativity. When both children were in school I volunteered a lot and sat on many committees like the tallest man's wife in the video. I was glad I had the time to educate myself and to feel important on committees. That is not always true for working people. I had my years of doing manual labor to support my family as a single woman. Talk about workers feeling resentment! I was horrified by some working conditions. I hate hearing "They just don't want to work". Why not? After years of isolation and earning for a job and better social connections I wanted to work, but the conditions of some jobs were intolerable and that gave me some sympathy for men who endure that and use alcohol to endure their lives.

There is practical math that is applied to life and math for technology that leaves most mathematically ignorant but is great for the few who go on to college educations that is about having a high tech job. I am out of time or I post a link that explains this better than I can.

We need a good book about what Industrialization and war have done to our values and relationships. — Athena

OK, here's one by a fairly bright feminist Stiffed

Faludi’s vivid storytelling illuminates the historic and traumatic paradigm shift from a “utilitarian” manliness, grounded in civic and communal service, to an “ornamental” masculinity shaped by entertainment, marketing, and performance values.

There is practical math that is applied to life and math for technology that leaves most mathematically ignorant — Athena

Yes, that's why it's taught in grades of increasingly specialized complexity and application. But if you start early showing students how to use numbers, measurement, proportions and ratios in their own areas of interest, and they are confident in mastery of the concepts, they (especially the girls) will be less averse to math in higher grades. The scientifically or mathematically gifted will discover their ability early on, while the others come to understand the reliability of exact knowledge, (such as climatologists and epidemiologists demonstrate, rather than the wild 'estimates' politicians throw out at random) If they see the purpose and usefulness of numeracy they'll be far less easily duped by stratagems like $ .99 pricing and government boondoggles.

Surely everyone thinks of all these things after watching the comedy videos. — Athena

Well for me, they just clearly show how ridiculous and stupid, soooooo much of what we think are essential cultural differences between us, are. Such are really, historically, self-imposed utter nonsense and false moral standards. The most offensive and disappointing for me, is those who I politically care about most, and empathise with most, who will say and think stuff, such as 'I know my place,' 'I am a smelly serf.' I am further annoyed by the audience laughter (piped or live) caused by a comment such as 'I have 8 kids but I'm not married.'

Thanks very much! :pray: :smile:

I wonder what would happen if either democracy or Christianity were ever actually and truly manifested?

Democracy’s brand name is wearing thin.

I can at least dimly imagine a possible Christianity that is not power-mad and judgmental and very Old Testament driven, with a tendency towards random Bible verse dogma and hypocrisy.

I can at least dimly imagine a possible Christianity that is not power-mad and judgmental — 0 thru 9

I've seen examples of such Christianity during my life, lived and practiced by persons of different denominations in different capacities. It was their example taught me forbearance toward faith and respect for people who have a sincere belief.*
(I'm pretty sure these good people would have behaved in exactly the same way if they had been atheists, since they all worked alongside unbelievers engaged in the same laudable efforts, but they themselves were convinced Jesus was guiding them. If the benefit to others is real, I'm not too fussed about motivations.)
* and a corresponding contempt for the mob of hypocrites behind them.

Thanks for your reply! :up:

It is unfortunately an old question… how could a religion centered on ‘love’ become the very opposite.
Add in a lust for worldly power and possessions, in a vain attempt to fill an emptiness felt inside us.

But the emptiness is not a bad thing (as Buddhism embraces it), quantum emptiness is the foundation.
The void is like a road, a pathway for energy, love, awareness, light to flow.
Trying to cram material things to fill the void might be the biggest mistake humans make, the primal miscalculation that gives birth to countless problems.

It is probably no surprise that the radical teachings of Jesus got twisted to suit the Roman Empire.
Soon it was little more than “we have the one true God on our side so watch out!”
The Yin half of reality got discarded for being too soft, and not ambitious enough.
Maybe a monotheistic belief system oversimplifies that which is beyond human understanding and control.

And now thousands of years later, even good-hearted people who want to believe in something inspiring are trying to make sense of all the religious hypocrisy that covers all like a river of toxic waste.

It’s no wonder that many consider any religious or spiritual expression to be folly, madness, archaic.
I now think that position is too extreme and polemic, but I’ve wondered the same thing.

It is unfortunately an old question… how could a religion centered on ‘love’ become the very opposite. — 0 thru 9

It didn't, really. Jesus (or whoever invented him) attempted to reform an old, hard, punitive religion into a benign and generous one. That creator-god was supposed to lend the authority of tradition to the new religion. It sounded good enough to attract followers, but Paul, or the Council of Nicaea neglected to burn every copy of the the volumes that became the Old Testament, which had much greater appeal to the patriarchs with most clout. Still does.

Maybe a monotheistic belief system oversimplifies that which is beyond human understanding and control. — 0 thru 9

Hence the trinity and all those saints.

It’s no wonder that many consider any religious or spiritual expression to be folly, madness, archaic. — 0 thru 9

And some, like myself are content to disbelieve. The void, afaic, is best filled with a connection to the earth - nature and life - to supply the spiritual component, the awe and reverence. Beyond that, rewarding personal relationships and meaningful work. (But I do enjoy some indulgence!)

The void, afaic, is best filled with a connection to the earth - nature and life - to supply the spiritual component, the awe and reverence. — Vera Mont

Lay down all thoughts
Surrender to the void
It is shining, It is shining… :victory: :nerd: :sparkle:

Yes, that's why it's taught in grades of increasingly specialized complexity and application. But if you start early showing students how to use numbers, measurement, proportions and ratios in their own areas of interest, and they are confident in mastery of the concepts, they (especially the girls) will be less averse to math in higher grades. The scientifically or mathematically gifted will discover their ability early on, while the others come to understand the reliability of exact knowledge, (such as climatologists and epidemiologists demonstrate, rather than the wild 'estimates' politicians throw out at random) If they see the purpose and usefulness of numeracy they'll be far less easily duped by stratagems like $ .99 pricing and government boondoggles. — Vera Mont

The book you recommend looks interesting and because of this discussion with you, I bought a copy of "A History of Women in America" by Janet L. Coryell and Nora Faires". That one starts with a story of a Native American woman who ruled over much of North America and the barbaric Spanish led by Hernando de Soto. For me, this is a story about the importance of culture and the ugliness of being barbaric. And it is not technology that makes humans civilized. A child who learns to build bombs and kills his parents and then shoots up teachers and his peers in a high school is not a desired addition to society and this is very much a result of the change in education and change in our understanding of freedom of speech and what it means to be civilized. However, telling a more exact history, a history that includes our wrongs is a good thing, or learning of cultures that did well until we arrived is a good thing.

For the math, just yesterday my daughter was talking about the impossible challenge of parents trying to help their young learn math. I think this math turn has important social consciences and is as great a failure as the "see and say" method of teaching reading. In fact, the new math failed so badly it is being replaced with another new math. New math left many mathematically illiterate just as the "see and say" method of teaching reading left many illiterate and hating reading because they failed so badly.

What is exact knowledge? I believe those who think they can know absolute truth are absolutely dangerous, and that this mentality is bringing us down. For sure this mentality can not possibly give us a better society. I have an excellent book on the seriousness of math illiteracy and I could be wrong but I think sticking to old math, art, and music and building on this triad foundation can correct the problem of math illiteracy and make everyone's lives richer in a pleasurable way that also unites us.

Thanks very much! :pray: :smile:

I wonder what would happen if either democracy or Christianity were ever actually and truly manifested?

Democracy’s brand name is wearing thin.

I can at least dimly imagine a possible Christianity that is not power-mad and judgmental and very Old Testament driven, with a tendency towards random Bible verse dogma and hypocrisy. — 0 thru 9

Thank you :cry: I cry because I have such a different understanding of democracy and it seems futile to convey my different way of thinking about it. Can we begin with Socrates and his concern that if we are not mature and self-aware and focused on morality things will not go well? Democracy is rule by reason and if we are not prepared for that, we can not manifest that.

Those who fought for democracy were literate in Greek and Roman classics and no one saw democracy in the bible until enough people were literate in the classics to have a concept of democracy. A hugh problem comes with "how do we make people civilized"? We did not have free public schools nor the budget for them. But we had churches and if we could keep these Christians from killing each other, we could leave moral training to the church. Eventually... we made it law that communities must provide education and children could not work during the school hours.

We finally got our heads around the importance of education, but really? What should children learn? Who is the best person to decide that? How is this information to be taught? What does all this have to do with being self-governing? What is democracy and how is it manifested?

Well for me, they just clearly show how ridiculous and stupid, soooooo much of what we think are essential cultural differences between us, are. Such are really, historically, self-imposed utter nonsense and false moral standards. The most offensive and disappointing for me, is those who I politically care about most, and empathise with most, who will say and think stuff, such as 'I know my place,' 'I am a smelly serf.' I am further annoyed by the audience laughter (piped or live) caused by a comment such as 'I have 8 kids but I'm not married.' — universeness

I loved those stereotypes and I think we have a lot to gain by being aware of them. During the Great Recession when OPEC embargoed oil to the US, I forgot how to think middle class. I came to see those who make the laws and enforce them as the enemy of the people. This was not just an emotional thing, but I actually went to the library at the local university and went through the abstracts looking for information. I found we have laws to protect the middle class, and if this means the have-nots and people on the margin of society have less of a chance, too bad. I advocated for the homeless when Reagan was in office and learned our representatives have a middle-class mentality and think a public golf course was more in line with what the voters wanted than shelter for the homeless. That has since changed and my community is doing a lot for the homeless. Darnit there is too much to say.

When the recession ended I went back to college and I felt like a Black person. My God, I realized how middle-class college education can be. I was even reported to the dean for asking inappropriate questions because the head of the department and also professor of several classes, was a real ass and I kept calling him on that. I do not mean to demean people of color but I want to say how totally and disgustingly horrible a college education can be for the same reason that back in the day, our city council members thought the voters wanted a golf course. As human beings, our awareness of others is very poor!

Our prejudices and stereotypes are survival tools. Please have mercy on us. Our brains absolutely can not handle all the information that is essential so our brains take shortcuts. Now can we speak of culture? I say too much so I will stop at repeating my school teacher's 3 rules.

1. We respect everyone because we are respectful people. That one rule could have given us a totally different history.
2. We protect the dignity of others, including our own dignity.
3. We do everything with intrigue.

The most important thing children have to learn is the virtues and if we do not learn the virtuals we will not manifest a good democracy. Ignorant people should not have the power of the vote and a democracy must have universal education to prevent social, economic, environmental, and political problems. However, it is very problematic to restrict who votes, but we can educate the people and this does not mean specializing them as doctors, physicists, engineers, etc.. It means learning concepts essential to a healthy nation.

What is exact knowledge? I believe those who think they can know absolute truth are absolutely dangerous, — Athena

Not absolute truth - that's faith. Exact knowledge is about precision, as distinct from guesstimation and opinion: knowing how much weight a girder can bear, so that the bridge doesn't collapse; what dosage of a drug is curative and which is lethal; how high an engine can rev without exploding, how many homes a sewage pipe can service before it backs up into their basements. The reliability of exact knowledge means I'm likely to survive a day in the busiest city. Even if you just want to built a reed hut, you need some engineering skill; in a modern industrial world, we need lots of engineering, technical, medical, statistical and analytic skills, a lot of exact knowledge.

I loved those stereotypes and I think we have a lot to gain by being aware of them. — Athena

I find such quite accurate parodies, of real human beings, produced via direct societal and cultural experience, foisted upon each of us, based on the lottery of where and to whom you are born, from the day we are born, as disappointing as you do.

I also agree with you that education, is one of the best methods we have, for changing the experience of a life as a human being, for the better. But I think that such will only ever succeed, when most of us can take their basic needs for granted. As long as basic needs are our main daily struggle, the elites will dictate the pace and pulse of human progress, more than the democratic majority will.

I think we need to start by getting global agreement, on exactly what our model is, for a standard of human life, which we wish to present, as our true 'role model.'

Should/could there be say, 'a book,' that could be given to all humans, as soon as they can read, that can be used for the rest of their lives, as their main guide, to 'how to live and be a progressive, free human being.' Are humans capable of producing something like that, that would work for the vast majority of us, at least for the next 100 years or so, as a 'first step,' to improving the human experience?
Would some future AI system produce a better set of guidelines for humans than humans can?

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans?

Thank you :cry: I cry because I have such a different understanding of democracy and it seems futile to convey my different way of thinking about it. Can we begin with Socrates and his concern that if we are not mature and self-aware and focused on morality things will not go well? Democracy is rule by reason and if we are not prepared for that, we can not manifest that. — Athena

Thank you as well! :sparkle:
I cry as well because everyone seems desperately unhappy, stressed, and pressured.
Lucky are those who have some temporary peace and sanity. (I say temporary because ‘the shit can hit the fan’ at any moment).
Not just adults… even little children.

So if we are starting life under a constant thunderous barrage, education and wisdom have trouble even being heard, let alone being followed.

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were.

I volunteered at the annual Holiday Bazaar in the used book room and bought way too many books. One of them is "Quantum, Shift in the Global Brain How the New Scientific Reality Can Change Us and Our World" by Ervin Laszlo. I really want to know what has to say because today is nothing like the past and this changing is going to continue. If you want you can join me in a mountain retreat and we can share books and give some thought to your question.

I love Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D.'s books about the gods in every man and goddesses in every woman. These are archetypes and she provides a brilliant explanation of these archetypes that are set when we are children and evolve in different set ways.

Out of time :groan: I want to refer back to my grandmother's 3 rules and learning virtues. I think one book could be enough but it would have to include the new social order called democracy. :heart: I love you all and I have to run.

If you want you can join me in a mountain retreat and we can share books and give some thought to your question. — Athena

As long as the place does not remind anyone of the Berghof :scream: and I can get there without adding to the problems of climate change :scream:
Do you think we humans could create a guidance book that became as popular or more popular than the bible or the quran, but provided well-chosen 'what if,' scenarios and gave sound, robust, advice on what to do next. Would such a book be too big? Would a knowledge-based electronic hand-held computer system be better? Could a 'ziggy' type device be created to help humans deal with all situations they might face in life :chin: :grin: :lol:

:fire:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/847478

Yes or no – the United States has been, and is currently, a constitutional republic, not a democracy?

Do you think we humans could create a guidance book that became as popular or more popular than the bible or the quran, ... — universeness

The internet. :pray:

... but provided well-chosen 'what if,' scenarios and gave sound, robust, advice on what to do next.

The tech singularity (AGI —> ASI). :point:

Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were. — Athena

I don't understand this. What three 'models' of humans? How does a universal standard of living, rights, freedoms and opportunity not allow for gender diversity?

The internet. — 180 Proof

Has a global poll ever been done yet as to whether or not the human race considers the internet a net positive or negative? I don't think it would qualify as the 'guide to being a human' education I think is needed, as it is too full of bad advice as well.

... but provided well-chosen 'what if,' scenarios and gave sound, robust, advice on what to do next.
The tech singularity (AGI —> ASI). — 180 Proof

Maybe ...... my mechaphile/monalithaphile friend! I do hope that a future AGI ...... ASI will help us become a better species, by advising us how to, or even just by stopping us, from acting like such vacuous morons in the future, compared to the now or to the past.
Btw, please forgive my bad attempts to invent new words. I am probably just trying to annoy those who are better wordsmiths than I, such as yourself, @Vera Mont, @Athena, :roll: the list of TPF members who I think are better wordsmiths than I, is toooooooooo long.

I suspect that 'the internet' (e.g. social media influencers, cyber preachers, etc) is more popular in every way than either the bible or quran (or any other "holy book").

As for AGi—>ASI, it/they will "advise us" to enjoy the post-singularity menageries which it/they provide/s and leave the boring global scale, civilization-wide decision-making (to which we higher primates are tragically maladapted) to its/their tireless, non-zerosum hyperintellect/s.

I suspect that 'the internet' (e.g. social media influencers, cyber preachers, etc) is more popular in every way than either the bible or quran (or any other "holy book"). — 180 Proof

The question then becomes, which is more pernicious and more of an existential threat to humanity, the bible/quran or any other religious book (I will not dignify such, with the word 'holy'), or the internet?
I think we would both vote that the religious texts are more of a threat but I am not convinced, we would be in the majority, although I hope we would be.

menageries — 180 Proof

Which definition are you going with, in your use of menagerie?
a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition. (zoo)
or
a strange or diverse collection of people or things.

From your previous posts, where you have used 'zoo,' I assume its the first one.
I maintain my objection to that imagery but I do like the word menagerie.
It reminds me of this old tongue twister:

An imaginary menagerie manager, imagined that he was imagining an imaginary menagerie.

If you try to say it fast, it's quite hard to stop yourself from uttering the error menaGENarie, well, for me anyway!

The question then becomes, which is more pernicious and more of an existential threat to humanity, the bible/quran or any other religious book (I will not dignify such, with the word 'holy'), or the internet? — universeness

The internet, by several leagues. Books don't do any harm by themselves. In fact, it was reading the bible that turned me off Judeo-Christianity. It's the influencers in palaces and pulpits that do the harm, thumping people over the head and stupefying them with a book those people either haven't read or haven't understood. They've done and are doing quite a lot of damage on television and they can do far more over the world wide web.

The internet, by several leagues. — Vera Mont

It would be an interesting TPF poll question imo, but perhaps most members would just find the question rather too broad, to offer a well-informed answer.

In fact, it was reading the bible that turned me off Judeo-Christianity. — Vera Mont

I think that has become almost an atheist mantra and one I like for its ironic value. If you want modern people to reject Christianity or Islam, then suggest they read the bible/quran.

I have heard some theists with a personal god belief, say that the 'real' god or 'their god,' can't be held responsible for the lies that have been written by humans, and passed off as the word of god. But even they start to get confused and challenged, when faced with probing questions regarding their personal perceived properties of their god and what should/could follow, based on the properties stated, as measured against common human secular notions of morality.

The scriptures have to be interpreted. Some bits are true, apparently, while other bits are metaphor, allegory, symbolic... or the ancient people misunderstood God's meaning, lost it in translation or whatever - any lame excuse for why what they profess to be the basis of their faith is holy, though it doesn't mean most of what it says.
It's the professional interpreters you have to guard against, not the text itself.

Which definition are you going with, in your use of menagerie?
a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition. (zoo)
or
a strange or diverse collection of people or things. — universeness

Both.

By far, IMO, 'the internet' – a 24/7/365, billion-fold, vidiot-delusion machine – is worse than merely 'reading' religious books today.

:up:

By far, IMO, 'the internet' – a 24/7/365, billion-fold, vidiot-delusion machine – is worse than merely 'reading' religious books today. — 180 Proof

Do you think the internet is as responsible for horrors, that are easily as equal at directly causing such as 'holy war,' divinely sanctioned slavery, divinely sanctioned OT atrocities such as ethnic cleansing and genocide, establishing the divine right of kings, the idea of the superiority of believers over everyone else, compared to the ways that the bible and the quran, have been used to cause and maintain such?

I think there are a lot of nasties on the Internet, but I don't think it is proving to be as toxic to humans as the bible/quran has, and all other religious texts. Perhaps it is not the best comparison, as religious texts have had an at least, 6 thousand year head start.