When the structural elements are riddled with dry rot, I don't waste my time plastering the walls. — Vera Mont
*sigh*Future generations will prevent such dry rot getting hold in the first place, at least better than your or my generations where able to. But I think we did, and continue to do ok, all things considered. — universeness
Here Thucydides, in one of his greatest passages [3:82; translation by Rex Warner from the Penguin Classics edition], describes the political and psychological consequences of this breakdown of civil society:
"To fit with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against the enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect. To plot successfully was a sign of intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching …
Family relations were a weaker tie than party membership, since party members were more ready to go to any extreme for any reason whatever. These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of established laws, but to acquire power by overthrowing the existing regime; and the members of these parties felt confidence in each other not because of any fellowship in a religious communion, but because they were partners in crime. If an opponent made a reasonable speech, the party in power, so far from giving it a generous reception, took every precaution to see that it had no practical effect." — Steven Pressfield
Be convinced that to be happy means to be free and that to be free means to be brave. Therefore do not take lightly the perils of war. Thucydides
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/thucydides-quotes — Thucydides
Peter Diamandis
https://www.diamandis.com › abundance
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You have mainly talked about the whole nation - as if it were one country, rather than four or six. — Vera Mont
for CollegeCoalition
Critical thought is what is needed, but can critical thought even be learned? — Tzeentch
"I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. no other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of freedom, and happiness."
(Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, August 13, 1786) — Jefferson
Why should anyone make common cause for someone who feels contempt for them? — T Clark
What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark
I speak of democracy. — Athena
Despite all the human faults of Athens, it was the beginning of science and democracy, rule by reason. — Athena
It is the concept of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and our ability to discover logos, universal laws, and figure out how to live with those laws and improve our lives. — Athena
We are not living with the fear of people we know starving to death in the long winter months. — Athena
Yes, in America, too.Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger. The risks are particularly acute among those who must spend at least 60 per cent of their income on food: the urban poor and displaced populations, the rural landless, pastoralists and the majority of smallholder farmers.
Nope. America was always aggressive; never in its whole history at peace for more than 15 years. The military technology advanced right along with the industrial might, and education was always aimed at what kind of work-force was required by industry and what kind of mindset was required for war. The landowners and bosses have always controlled people's lives as they also controlled government. That the bureaucracy and education were upgraded to fit into the post-war world order led by the US is a natural byproduct of geopolitical change.Do you have anything to say about how military technology changed education and how bureaucratic technology increases the power of government to control our lives or what abundance and security has done to how we think? — Athena
I accept that such quotes from Thucydides, demonstrate that the mistakes or deliberate nefarious acts made by many humans then, are still happening now. But many many more people are now far more aware of such behaviours, and there is far more organised resistance and rational arguments, against the stupid positions Thucydides was highlighting. The far more organised and growing (mostly, currently, in the West) atheist movement is bigger, more successful and has more reach, than it has ever had in the past. Those in the disability and LGBTQ+ movements and those who support such, have made gains in the past 50 years that have been quite spectacular imo. These are just a couple of the examples of the progressions made by the current generations of people, who are willing do battle with the shortfalls of the status quo.The words of the video could come from Thucydides — Athena
I totally agree that you can better help others, when you yourself can take the basic means of survival for granted. That's why I fight for food, water, shelter etc as basic human rights, and not something anyone should have to 'work for.' I was merely pointing out that sooooooo many people are willing to, and are in fact compelled to, help make things better for everyone. As long as it is true, that good people will not just stand by and watch horror and terror happen to others, then we do earn the right to continue to exist imo. Many still do nothing, and they do merely watch as evil grows and thrives but, as Gandhi pointed out, we always, eventually, bring such evils down, we destroy them. The nefarious rise again or hide and come out again, and the fight continues. But general progress on behalf of more and more 'have nots' is made. As I said before, most people have more ability to affect the nefarious than they have ever had before. A billionaire can be brought down almost overnight today, as can a government, if the people decide to act en-masse.HOWEVER, all that good depends on having an abundance. — Athena
I think when Trump was our president, we experienced the division that was felt during the Civil War. The way he handled Covid and went about other things, divided all of us and we turned our backs on our neighbors and friends who were no longer our friends because it was unbearable to associate with those we opposed. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was such a strong emotional thing it was closer to insanity than sanity, and I think that happens when people go to war. — Athena
Trump not only uses these people for votes and cash, but I seriously wonder if one of Trump’s multiple personalities actually wants to start a civil war.
Especially now that he probably feels persecuted; I fear he wants a bloodbath. — 0 thru 9
:100: :fire:The Trump anomaly is a symptom, not the disease or the cause. All he, as a deeply disturbed individual, wants is attention - all of it, all the time, by any means - and he's getting it whether he succeeds or fails in his aspirations, whether he steals from a city or a charity, whether he keeps a promise to his allies or throws them under buses, whether he gets legislation passed or vetoes it, whether he supports or opposes the constitution, whether he commits misdemeanors, of felonies or treason, whether he faces prosecution or evades it.
Whether he wants a war - class, civil or foreign - is immaterial. It's going to happen, because that's the inevitable devolution of events from 1963 to the present.
Trump could never have been able to get the first nomination, had the GOP not reached that level of jingoism, corruption and craven conformity. He could not have stirred up the yahoos at his rallies, had they not already been mustered and enraged by a long line of his predecessors. He could not have squeaked through that election, had the voting procedures not already been fatally compromised by state level tampering.
Everything, at least from the Kennedy assassination, through the Civil Rights movement and opposition to the Viet Nam war has been leading up to a Trump or something like him. If he drops dead tomorrow, or is incarcerated (as any other citizen with his record would have been, years ago) or withdraws from politics, it will make no difference to the march of events. — Vera Mont
For decades now, I suppose, north of the US border must feel like living above a freaking noisy meth lab — 180 Proof
I get this unsettling feeling that many people (10 thousand? 100 thousand?) in the USA are actively chomping at the bit to start another US civil war… or some bloody battles anyway. — 0 thru 9
The Trump anomaly is a symptom, not the disease or the cause. — Vera Mont
Whether he wants a war - class, civil or foreign - is immaterial. It's going to happen, because that's the inevitable devolution of events from 1963 to the present. — Vera Mont
The rise of progressive liberalism? — praxis
I think it would take more than a contrived ‘culture war’ to instigate an actual civil war. — praxis
The funny thing economically is that Bidenomics has been more successful in reviving the industrial sector than Trump was, so in a practical (rather than cultural) sense a large portion of Trump’s base should be supporting Biden. — praxis
I don't know what that means. — Vera Mont
The rank-and-file are not interested in economics. Are not informed about economics. They're it it for the slogan. — Vera Mont
Any far-right figurehead who assures them that they are important, valued, worthy of ruling the world the way they imagine they used to, will be followed. — Vera Mont
No doubt, they'd rather burn down the American Republic than share it with the descendants of those whom their ancestors had once murderously stole it from and savagely enslaved in order to build it. A reckoning – it's only a matter of time. I vividly recall driving past a billboard on a rural Tennessee stretch of US Interstate in the summer of 2016 that read: "Make America White Again". Chilling, not surprising. And the trend lines since, according to (e.g.) the FBI's hate crimes / domestic terrorism statistics and exploding gun-ammunition sales, have not been encouraging ...The overweight undereducated white men are terrified of losing their ascendancy; many white people are afraid of becoming submerged in a population of darker hues; many urban people are afraid of replacement by automated modern industry; many rural people are afraid of becoming outmoded, irrelevant. Any far-right figurehead who assures them that they are important, valued, worthy of ruling the world the way they imagine they used to, will be followed. — Vera Mont
For those who are posturing in a high and mighty stance of ostensible moral superiority, I would caution you against falling into the trap of modernism and the liberal watering down of truth. Your fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers would have been entirely sympathetic and supportive of the preservation of a white super majority in America. They would have been utterly hostile to the concept of the mass nonwhite immigration that has ensued over the past half century. They would have never acquiesced to the schemes of forced racial integration foisted upon the states by a usurpatious federal government. By capitulating on these and other related issues, you are dishonoring your fathers and mothers of old in a flagrant and treacherous violation of the 4th Commandment.In the fulness of time, God will surely hold you accountable for this violation of his sacred law. As Isaiah 5:20 states, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
In summary, progressive liberalism tends to favor a more active government role in addressing social and economic issues, — praxis
Conservatives tend to be more cautious about social change and may be resistant to significant shifts in cultural norms or values. They often uphold traditional family values and may oppose policies like same-sex marriage or drug legalization. — praxis
Conservative liberals often advocate for a more restrained foreign policy, favoring non-interventionism and a focus on national sovereignty. They may be skeptical of international organizations and military interventions. — praxis
I guess what I’m thinking is that substantial economic pain can lead to civil war but a mere slogan only gets a guy wearing a pair of horns to force his way into the chambers of congress for a few hours. — praxis
Nonsensical populism that I doubt anyone actually buys. — praxis
Yes, that's what I used to think liberalism was. It did rise for a little while, c. 1960-1980. But what's that got to do with the conservatives' downhill slide from Gerald Ford to Donald Trump? — Vera Mont
conservative liberals is an oxymoron — Vera Mont
individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights. — praxis
We started with me asking about "the inevitable devolution of events from 1963 to the present". I'm still curious about that. — praxis
The rise of progressive liberalism? — praxis
individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights.
— praxis
Therefore, no relation to the GOP since Nixon. — Vera Mont
And when Pope Francis preached for good stewardship of the world and the climate they turned their backs on him. — praxis
But their libertarian-like obsession with "FREEDOM" glaringly shows their liberalism. — praxis
Despite all the human faults of Athens, it was the beginning of science and democracy, rule by reason. — Athena
What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark
get this unsettling feeling that many people (10 thousand? 100 thousand?) in the USA are actively chomping at the bit to start another US civil war… or some bloody battles anyway.
They are pumped up with automatic weapons, anger, and enough ‘theory’ to be actual loose cannons… and they are proud of this.
Trump not only uses these people for votes and cash, but I seriously wonder if one of Trump’s multiple personalities actually wants to start a civil war.
Especially now that he probably feels persecuted; I fear he wants a bloodbath.
I dislike DeSantis and his stupid bigotry very much, but he is not the nuclear timebomb and stuff of nightmares that Trump is. I hope neither gets the nomination.
The status quo sucks, but some of the ‘alternatives’ are hell on earth. — 0 thru 9
I totally agree that you can better help others, when you yourself can take the basic means of survival for granted. That's why I fight for food, water, shelter etc as basic human rights, and not something anyone should have to 'work for.' I was merely pointing out that sooooooo many people are willing to, and are in fact compelled to, help make things better for everyone. As long as it is true, that good people will not just stand by and watch horror and terror happen to others, then we do earn the right to continue to exist imo. Many still do nothing, and they do merely watch as evil grows and thrives but, as Gandhi pointed out, we always, eventually, bring such evils down, we destroy them. The nefarious rise again or hide and come out again, and the fight continues. But general progress on behalf of more and more 'have nots' is made. As I said before, most people have more ability to affect the nefarious than they have ever had before. A billionaire can be brought down almost overnight today, as can a government, if the people decide to act en-masse. — universeness
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