So tribal societies that had the institution of marriage must have been more competitive than the ones that didn't, hence virtually all primitive societies have it. — TheArchitectOfTheGods
But even though prostitution and unlimited amount of online porn is available today, it does not help the modern day "incels" in their feeling of inferiority. — TheArchitectOfTheGods
Marriage is a ruse laid by the tribal leaders to make every man in the group feel more equal and more valuable. The leaders give up their rights to exclusive access to all females and parentship of all children in the group, in exchange for having a stronger group. There might have been a critical size of the tribe that has necessitated this social development. — TheArchitectOfTheGods
It is interesting to speculate whether prostitution might have become dishonorable only after the invention of marriage, precisely to protect the new social institution of marriage. Groups of Chimpanzees or primitive stone age people may have non-dishonorable prostitution, but they don't have marriage, and they would have non-eligible male group members (involuntary not celibate, but companionless, chimpanzees). Apparently what involuntary celibates struggle with is not so much lack of sex, but lack of companionship and perhaps more importantly, lack of recognition by the other sex.We don't have temple prostitutes. Prostitution is dishonorable in our world (for the most part). This makes that path problematic for some. — frank
It absolutely has, which was also my point why I believe it was introduced in the first place, to stabilize the social group. It is therefore interesting to observe the development of current (post)modern society where there are no more forced marriages, only love marriages, which fact could provide an answer to the original poster's question why the "incel" problem is becoming more noticeable and online "incel" groups are attracting a following. Societies which still follow to a large extent the traditional model of forced or arranged marriage (like India or other parts of the world) should have comparatively small "incel" (online) groups, because here forced marriage still arguably successfully helps to stabilize society.Maybe, but whatever the basis might be for the institution of marriage, it has served as a source of stability for quite a while. — frank
Prostitution is dishonorable in our world (for the most part). This makes that path problematic for some. — frank
Apparently what involuntary celibates struggle with is not so much lack of sex, but lack of companionship and perhaps more importantly, lack of recognition by the other sex. — TheArchitectOfTheGods
Societies which still follow to a large extent the traditional model of forced or arranged marriage (like India or other parts of the world) should have comparatively small "incel" (online) groups, because here forced marriage still arguably successfully helps to stabilize society. — TheArchitectOfTheGods
Don't know why prostitution is dishonorable.
If anything, prostitution is selling ones innate qualities (sexual attractiveness/beauty) and personal skills (sex) for monetary gain.
What is the difference between this and being a model (which also sell inherent beauty/sexual attractiveness). Or those that sell innate skills other than sex: strength - wrestlers, athletes etc. Or intellect - academics, professors, scientists etc.
"mind for sale"- the purview if the intellectual, and "body for sale"- the purview of the sex worker or model. Or "skills for sale" - the purview of everyone else, ought not be seen as more or less honorable than one another.
We all sell our strengths and abilities. For some that is sex. — Benj96
There are two meanings of "incel.". One is a derogatory term for a guy who can't get laid. The other is a self-applied term for guys who think there's something wrong with our society that would be corrected by reducing the autonomy of women. — frank
An incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, a portmanteau of "involuntary celibate")[1] is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.[2][3][4] Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people.[5][17] The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described the subculture as "part of the online male supremacist ecosystem" that is included in their list of hate groups.[18][19] Incels are mostly male and heterosexual,[13][15][20] and are often white.[21][22][23][24][25] Estimates of the overall size of the subculture vary greatly, ranging from thousands to hundreds of thousands of individuals.[26][27]
Since 2014, multiple mass killings have been perpetrated by self-identified incels, as well as other instances of violence or attempted violence. Incel communities have been increasingly criticized by scholars and commentators for their misogyny, the condoning and encouragement of violence, and extremism. — wiki
Can you provide anything to suggest that you have not just invented this? Wiki has only the second meaning : — unenlightened
a derogatory term for a guy who can't get laid. — frank
The term started out as a derogatory term. — frank
I'm not sure what you're asking. — frank
My give a damn is busted. — frank
And I think I have my answer; you got nothing. — unenlightened
short for "involuntary celibate". often built like a discord mod, probably uses reddit, gets no bitches, says the hard r while being whiter than Wonder Bread, smells like Axe body spray and/or B.O., plays COD, and makes overused "i identify as an attack helicopter" jokes. has never felt the touch of another woman except that of his mother when she handed him snackies as a child. — Urban Dictionary
I give a damn, though, that you are peddling blatant untruths on the forum, and thereby derailing and undermining a proper discussion. — unenlightened
Holy shit, man. Why not just totally flip out about something that really doesn't matter? — frank
I agree.Again, I think this incel problem is indicative of a wider trend among all the young (not just males) - increased isolation and social atomization, increased anxiety, depression, etc.
The 'digital age' is doing a number on kids and young adults, by completely socially (and mentally) disregulating them.
Perfectly normal people are unable to find a mate, and are looking for answers why. Predictably, some become very resentful. — Tzeentch
Is this an emerging mental condition? — Benj96
What is fuelling the upsurgence in men that self identify as incels?
Do you think that perhaps the way dating apps are designed has some influence? Are we becoming too objectifying as a society? Is the incel "movement" dangerous? To whom and why?
So many questions on this bizarre subject.
I agree. Why do you think the availability of prostitution does not meet the needs of incels? — frank
1. Tackling religiousity and magical-thinking/delusions, replacing with reason and critical thought.
2. Addressing mental health crisis and better treatment for convert narcissism and cluster B profiles. A majority of treatment is for the victims, and not the narcissists themselves. If you are a narcissist, the advice is basically 'you are doomed' and you are the target of a mass witch-hunt.
3. Learning stoicism.
4. Erasing this idea their issues have anything to do with women and not heavy dependence on religious coping methods. — Cobra
Because whilst incels may be slightly less sexuallly frustrated/ temporarily subdue their loneliness through purchasing sex, this will only be replaced by the anger at the fact that they had to resort to money to get what they want whilst the "Chad's" or alpha males simply get it for free.
There is an inherent degree of envy involved. I can imagine an incel saying "why should I have to spend my hard earned money to get laid".
Not to mention the fact a portion of incels probably don't earn enough to make buying sex financially viable. Some have such low esteem and are so demotivated that they suffer depression and are unemployed. Living with parents maybe. That's highly restricting both to having a girlfriend or buying sex. — Benj96
I don't know if you're familiar with Margaret Atwood's fiction, but one of her most famous works, The Handmaid's Tale is about the rise of a branch of the religious right which reduces the role of women to the bottom of society. Atwood claimed that all of the things depicted in her fiction reflect real world attitudes and events. I would say that's how the incel culture goes beyond being a vent for sexual frustration among some white men to connecting to social movements. The base notes are hatred and at least contemplating violence. The higher frequencies mesh with the reactionary right. — frank
‘Incel’ is a counter-culture - a reaction to the realisation that identifying with this ideology - reductively that women exist to serve their individual needs - is rapidly rendering them a disenfranchised minority. By identifying themselves as ‘incels’ - as victims - they’re attempting to protect their ideology as the ‘essence’ of who they are. If we reject the ideology, we are effectively cancelling them as human beings who are clearly suffering - which, for some of the more compassionate posters here, seems to be giving us pause. — Possibility
Perhaps that’s their entire game plan - a last ditch effort to preserve a dying and ineffective ideology by claiming it as their ‘essential’ identity. It’s a bit like using children as human shields… I’m not going to open fire, but neither will I condone the behaviour. I still consider someone who self-identifies as ‘incel’ to be a human being worthy of compassion, but in order to do so I emphatically reject the term as indicative of their identity. Their celibacy is not involuntary but selective, based on a false sense of entitlement. For me, the conversation starts here. — Possibility
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