You two appear to be in an echo chamber wrestling with your own biases. Start with considering the possibility that there are significant concerns driving all aspects of reactionary conservatism.

Coming back to the original premise of the thread, and apologies if this was perhaps stated before, but I always thought that the institution of marriage itself was most probably invented to deal with the problem of "incels" in the group or tribe in the first place. By having marriage as a social institution, the tribe leaders could use the now no longer "incels" for war and other productive activity to benefit the tribe, rather than perhaps sabotaging it. This way, the leaders could save the energy needed to control the incels and prevent them from raping the female members, which would need to be punished and result in the loss of a potential warrior. So tribal societies that had the institution of marriage must have been more competitive than the ones that didn't, hence virtually all primitive societies have it.

So tribal societies that had the institution of marriage must have been more competitive than the ones that didn't, hence virtually all primitive societies have it. — TheArchitectOfTheGods

I think marriage is more about identifying patriarchal lineage. The temple prostitutes have a civilizing effect on the population, according to the epic of Gilgamesh. Sex calms people down.

But even though prostitution and unlimited amount of online porn is available today, it does not help the modern day "incels" in their feeling of inferiority. Marriage is a ruse laid by the tribal leaders to make every man in the group feel more equal and more valuable. The leaders give up their rights to exclusive access to all females and parentship of all children in the group, in exchange for having a stronger group. There might have been a critical size of the tribe that has necessitated this social development.

But even though prostitution and unlimited amount of online porn is available today, it does not help the modern day "incels" in their feeling of inferiority. — TheArchitectOfTheGods

We don't have temple prostitutes. Prostitution is dishonorable in our world (for the most part). This makes that path problematic for some.

Marriage is a ruse laid by the tribal leaders to make every man in the group feel more equal and more valuable. The leaders give up their rights to exclusive access to all females and parentship of all children in the group, in exchange for having a stronger group. There might have been a critical size of the tribe that has necessitated this social development. — TheArchitectOfTheGods

Maybe, but whatever the basis might be for the institution of marriage, it has served as a source of stability for quite a while.

We don't have temple prostitutes. Prostitution is dishonorable in our world (for the most part). This makes that path problematic for some. — frank

It is interesting to speculate whether prostitution might have become dishonorable only after the invention of marriage, precisely to protect the new social institution of marriage. Groups of Chimpanzees or primitive stone age people may have non-dishonorable prostitution, but they don't have marriage, and they would have non-eligible male group members (involuntary not celibate, but companionless, chimpanzees). Apparently what involuntary celibates struggle with is not so much lack of sex, but lack of companionship and perhaps more importantly, lack of recognition by the other sex.

Maybe, but whatever the basis might be for the institution of marriage, it has served as a source of stability for quite a while. — frank

It absolutely has, which was also my point why I believe it was introduced in the first place, to stabilize the social group. It is therefore interesting to observe the development of current (post)modern society where there are no more forced marriages, only love marriages, which fact could provide an answer to the original poster's question why the "incel" problem is becoming more noticeable and online "incel" groups are attracting a following. Societies which still follow to a large extent the traditional model of forced or arranged marriage (like India or other parts of the world) should have comparatively small "incel" (online) groups, because here forced marriage still arguably successfully helps to stabilize society.

Prostitution is dishonorable in our world (for the most part). This makes that path problematic for some. — frank

Don't know why prostitution is dishonorable.

If anything, prostitution is selling ones innate qualities (sexual attractiveness/beauty) and personal skills (sex) for monetary gain.

What is the difference between this and being a model (which also sell inherent beauty/sexual attractiveness). Or those that sell innate skills other than sex: strength - wrestlers, athletes etc. Or intellect - academics, professors, scientists etc.

"mind for sale"- the purview if the intellectual, and "body for sale"- the purview of the sex worker or model. Or "skills for sale" - the purview of everyone else, ought not be seen as more or less honorable than one another.

We all sell our strengths and abilities. For some that is sex.

Apparently what involuntary celibates struggle with is not so much lack of sex, but lack of companionship and perhaps more importantly, lack of recognition by the other sex. — TheArchitectOfTheGods

There are two meanings of "incel.". One is a derogatory term for a guy who can't get laid. The other is a self-applied term for guys who think there's something wrong with our society that would be corrected by reducing the autonomy of women.

I think the term for guys who are lonely and want female companionship, but have trouble engineering that, is just: lonely? Socially inept? I don't know.

Societies which still follow to a large extent the traditional model of forced or arranged marriage (like India or other parts of the world) should have comparatively small "incel" (online) groups, because here forced marriage still arguably successfully helps to stabilize society. — TheArchitectOfTheGods

It also enables misogynistic men to buy a wife/ sex slave/ punching bag and save a ton of money, risk of disease and legal hassle on prostitutes. (You know they're not all voluntary independent contractors, either, right?)

Don't know why prostitution is dishonorable.

If anything, prostitution is selling ones innate qualities (sexual attractiveness/beauty) and personal skills (sex) for monetary gain.

What is the difference between this and being a model (which also sell inherent beauty/sexual attractiveness). Or those that sell innate skills other than sex: strength - wrestlers, athletes etc. Or intellect - academics, professors, scientists etc.

"mind for sale"- the purview if the intellectual, and "body for sale"- the purview of the sex worker or model. Or "skills for sale" - the purview of everyone else, ought not be seen as more or less honorable than one another.

We all sell our strengths and abilities. For some that is sex. — Benj96

I agree. Why do you think the availability of prostitution does not meet the needs of incels?

There are two meanings of "incel.". One is a derogatory term for a guy who can't get laid. The other is a self-applied term for guys who think there's something wrong with our society that would be corrected by reducing the autonomy of women. — frank

Can you provide anything to suggest that you have not just invented this? Wiki has only the second meaning :

An incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, a portmanteau of "involuntary celibate")[1] is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.[2][3][4] Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people.[5][17] The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described the subculture as "part of the online male supremacist ecosystem" that is included in their list of hate groups.[18][19] Incels are mostly male and heterosexual,[13][15][20] and are often white.[21][22][23][24][25] Estimates of the overall size of the subculture vary greatly, ranging from thousands to hundreds of thousands of individuals.[26][27]

Since 2014, multiple mass killings have been perpetrated by self-identified incels, as well as other instances of violence or attempted violence. Incel communities have been increasingly criticized by scholars and commentators for their misogyny, the condoning and encouragement of violence, and extremism. — wiki

Can you provide anything to suggest that you have not just invented this? Wiki has only the second meaning : — unenlightened

I guess I could look for a citation. Didn't realize there was any question about it though.

a derogatory term for a guy who can't get laid. — frank

https://www.google.com/search?q=Is+%22incel%22+a+derogatory+term+for+a+guy+who+can%27t+get+laid.&client=safari&rls=en&ei=N1pzZOexOZCR8gKkppHIDA&start=20&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwinqYCbkpj_AhWQiFwKHSRTBMk4ChDy0wN6BAgFEAc&biw=1252&bih=598&dpr=2

a derogatory term for a guy who can't get laid. — frank

I'm not sure what you're asking. The term started out as a derogatory term. Eventually it became an online phenomenon where males adopted the label with a sense of victimization.

Like any internet fixture, its population is varied. In general, as I said, the theme is that their problems are rooted in women's rights, which creates strong, independent women who can pick and choose who they have sex with.

It's mostly a ridiculous spray of useless bytes. Could someone commit rape or murder and point to incel culture as his motive? Sure. Make of that whatever you like. My give a damn is busted.

Again, I think this incel problem is indicative of a wider trend among all the young (not just males) - increased isolation and social atomization, increased anxiety, depression, etc.

The 'digital age' is doing a number on kids and young adults, by completely socially (and mentally) disregulating them.

Perfectly normal people are unable to find a mate, and are looking for answers why. Predictably, some become very resentful.

My sense is that a certain subgroup of people - extravert, confident, etc. - are still able to go about their social needs through the dating scene/dating apps/clubbing, whereas the more introverted, shy types completely miss the boat, since those types have always relied on a more gradual type of relation-building - something which is becoming harder and harder.

The term started out as a derogatory term. — frank

Wiki says not. Do you have any evidence that wiki is wrong?

I'm not sure what you're asking. — frank

I'm asking as politely as I can whether you have any evidence of its being used as a derogatory term, aside from the derogatory attitude sensible folks have subsequently taken to the online self- styled internet groups?

And I think I have my answer; you got nothing.

My give a damn is busted. — frank

I give a damn, though, that you are peddling blatant untruths on the forum, and thereby derailing and undermining a proper discussion.

And I think I have my answer; you got nothing. — unenlightened

Wow. You're getting hard core on this. As always, if you want to know the uptodateslang, you can go to a slang dictionary .

short for "involuntary celibate". often built like a discord mod, probably uses reddit, gets no bitches, says the hard r while being whiter than Wonder Bread, smells like Axe body spray and/or B.O., plays COD, and makes overused "i identify as an attack helicopter" jokes. has never felt the touch of another woman except that of his mother when she handed him snackies as a child. — Urban Dictionary

Built like a discord mod. :lol:

I give a damn, though, that you are peddling blatant untruths on the forum, and thereby derailing and undermining a proper discussion. — unenlightened

Holy shit, man. Why not just totally flip out about something that really doesn't matter?

There's beauty all around us. We take it for granted.

Holy shit, man. Why not just totally flip out about something that really doesn't matter? — frank

Why not just retire disgracefully? Why go on defending something you think doesn't matter? Why try and make out that I've got a problem, because I dare to question your bullshit?

Is your ego that fragile?

Again, I think this incel problem is indicative of a wider trend among all the young (not just males) - increased isolation and social atomization, increased anxiety, depression, etc.

The 'digital age' is doing a number on kids and young adults, by completely socially (and mentally) disregulating them.

Perfectly normal people are unable to find a mate, and are looking for answers why. Predictably, some become very resentful. — Tzeentch

I agree.

Although just how many incels there really are is an important question. Is this really an important question or not? Or just put up there as an "important" question.

For example in my country every fifth adult lives alone. About one third of adults are single. Half of them want to be in a relationship. So with those statistics, I guess my country ought to be swarming with incels... assuming this many of the single men are indeed incels.

Assuming the term 'incel' refers to this specific, somewhat radicalized internet group, the numbers probably aren't terribly high.

But the amount of people who suffer under the same social problems is probably quite high, especially among the youth whose upbringing has been dominated by the birth of the internet.

Is this an emerging mental condition? — Benj96

I think it is a matter of weak brains that are more susceptible to religiosity, ideology, and magical sophistic and same-sex solipsism. It is no mystery that incels have a direct connection to scientism that supports their delusions and conclusions of females and women, and it is this that directly separates an incel from a sexless man that does not identify as an incel; because to identify as an incel is to accept the ideology of the incel that is cultivated around black pill science, lookism and biological reductionism - in a way, it is more respectable than Manosphere men who reject the realities of how deformity can hinder a man or woman from finding attractive mates, but the incel 'science' is a radicalized delusional form of self-defeatist obsession and OCD, many having a form of body dysmorphia to boot.

On the topic of mental disorder and illness, covert narcissism, OCD, body dysmorphia (see incel 'bone-crushing' and obsession with scientific facial terms and plastic surgery), autism, bi-polar, depression, impulsivity disorders, substance additions, and debilitating social anxiety all exist in these communities, as well as learned sociopathic behavior and inactive antisocial traits - all in which have nothing to do with women or lack of, in addition to being more susceptible to religiosity, ideology, and magical sophistic and same-sex solipsism they also have all these underlying conditions which also have nothing to do with women, nor would having a woman suddenly appear solve these issues. They would simply just be paired up with a woman, and then divorced later. Women and others are not sympathetic because of all that listed, the narcissism still persists it is women and the innocent that are the problems - a cultish form of collective gaslight on the innocent or recipients. This to me is a form of ultimate insanity, expecting or desiring compassion and understanding from the victims you have beat it out of.

Even more so, it is an institutionalized 'sub-identity.' The same as manosphere red pill men is also an institutionalized identity. Unlike Red Pill men that aim to deconstruct the traditional notions of masculinity and redefine them how they see fit under completely arbitrary criteria outside of conservative and traditional norms (which - that is sloppily anti-science and based off patterns of experiences, confirmation bias and ancedotal evidence, the incel identity is developed through a completely submerge in scientism revolving around "Black Pill Science", that plainly states the reasons for a man's inceldom is directly linked toward lookism and a man's physical appearance and not his masculinity, unless the masculinity is referring to masculinization of phenotypical traits and appearances.

Incels believe in a complete biological reductionism of both males and females, and the only way to overcome their shortcomings is to overcome their biological shortcomings, it mostly focuses on a biologically deterministic/reductionist viewpoint, similar to the Red Pill that deviates because it attempts to 'fight back' and 'control the narrative' by first deconstructing Judeo-Christianity masculinity and 'creating their idea of the ultimate man, made by any-man/men' themselves, while being completely at the mercy of evolutionary biology or the 'biology of female nature'. In that way, we see men 'recreating what men should be' in the form of idolized psuedo-identities/characters like Andrew Tate - but this man neither exists in any real way - (not even to Andrew Tate) - which justifies his actions. Which is why you see a lot of distinctions without differences in such men, such as liberating themselves from the 'provider role' while going on to preach to men that through money and materiality, only you can have women - effectively just going from involuntarily servants to voluntary slaves.

In the opposite, Inceldom is a complete shredding of all other identities to completely submerge into the 'incel'. He no is no longer a man, he is no longer Michael, he is no longer anything but an incel, and his identity is now indistinguishable from his ideology.

What is fuelling the upsurgence in men that self identify as incels?

The reason for that I think is first a weakness for religiosity and magical-thinking in the mind in the first place. As we see with many men in these communities, they are 'religious-minded' first, even as atheists or non-believers, and susceptible to then, fall into these deep forms of magical-thinking and biological reductionism/absurdities.

Male brains that are more susceptible to religion, are also more susceptible to be adopted or indoctrinated into cults, which was no surprise to me when Roosh V (the man that advocated for legalizing female rape), turned to God and religion when his sister died, because there cannot be enough space for both forms of magical-thinking. Religion is notorious in deflection and accountability-eliminating coping strategy, so it does not surprise me one bit that such men would just radicalize in other forms of magical-thought if they were to leave Inceldom or RP rhetoric.

Do you think that perhaps the way dating apps are designed has some influence? Are we becoming too objectifying as a society? Is the incel "movement" dangerous? To whom and why?

So many questions on this bizarre subject.

I think it is a matter of weak brains that are more susceptible to religiosity, ideology, and magical sophistic and same-sex solipsism. I think the sooner we fix this, the more we can start getting these men to think more clearly. My advice would be:

1. Tackling religiousity and magical-thinking/delusions, replacing with reason and critical thought.
2. Addressing mental health crisis and better treatment for convert narcissism and cluster B profiles. A majority of treatment is for the victims, and not the narcissists themselves. If you are a narcissist, the advice is basically 'you are doomed' and you are the target of a mass witch-hunt.
3. Learning stoicism.
4. Erasing this idea their issues have anything to do with women and not heavy dependence on religious coping methods.

I agree. Why do you think the availability of prostitution does not meet the needs of incels? — frank

Because whilst incels may be slightly less sexuallly frustrated/ temporarily subdue their loneliness through purchasing sex, this will only be replaced by the anger at the fact that they had to resort to money to get what they want whilst the "Chad's" or alpha males simply get it for free.

There is an inherent degree of envy involved. I can imagine an incel saying "why should I have to spend my hard earned money to get laid".

Not to mention the fact a portion of incels probably don't earn enough to make buying sex financially viable. Some have such low esteem and are so demotivated that they suffer depression and are unemployed. Living with parents maybe. That's highly restricting both to having a girlfriend or buying sex.

1. Tackling religiousity and magical-thinking/delusions, replacing with reason and critical thought.
2. Addressing mental health crisis and better treatment for convert narcissism and cluster B profiles. A majority of treatment is for the victims, and not the narcissists themselves. If you are a narcissist, the advice is basically 'you are doomed' and you are the target of a mass witch-hunt.
3. Learning stoicism.
4. Erasing this idea their issues have anything to do with women and not heavy dependence on religious coping methods. — Cobra

I think these are definitely a very good start. I do think narcissism isn't as fixed as we think though. I believe people can become more narcissistic or less narcissistic depending on conditions, experience and cognitive behavioural changes.

Because whilst incels may be slightly less sexuallly frustrated/ temporarily subdue their loneliness through purchasing sex, this will only be replaced by the anger at the fact that they had to resort to money to get what they want whilst the "Chad's" or alpha males simply get it for free.

There is an inherent degree of envy involved. I can imagine an incel saying "why should I have to spend my hard earned money to get laid".

Not to mention the fact a portion of incels probably don't earn enough to make buying sex financially viable. Some have such low esteem and are so demotivated that they suffer depression and are unemployed. Living with parents maybe. That's highly restricting both to having a girlfriend or buying sex. — Benj96

Part of the incel complaint (at least when they were on reddit, their subreddits have been removed now for violent content) was that they show their worth to society by having good paying jobs. This worth doesn't translate to sexual success, though. So though the younger portion of the incel crowd is in high school and wouldn't be able to afford a prostitute because of that, the older ones could. I agree with you that it's envy, and a sense that there's something wrong with our society that would be corrected by turning back women's rights in a far reaching way.

I don't know if you're familiar with Margaret Atwood's fiction, but one of her most famous works, The Handmaid's Tale is about the rise of a branch of the religious right which reduces the role of women to the bottom of society. Atwood claimed that all of the things depicted in her fiction reflect real world attitudes and events. I would say that's how the incel culture goes beyond being a vent for sexual frustration among some white men to connecting to social movements. The base notes are hatred and at least contemplating violence. The higher frequencies mesh with the reactionary right.

What we have now is a swipe left society. Women can simply swipe left anytime even the slightest bit of disagreements arise. Just keep swiping left, and be assured that Mr. Right is somewhere out there on the horizon. Just keep on swiping left for a better tomorrow. The pool of potential dates is no longer one's immediate geographic area, but rather the entire internet, the entire globe. This has profound impact on the dating game, changing it into something unprecedented.

I don't know if you're familiar with Margaret Atwood's fiction, but one of her most famous works, The Handmaid's Tale is about the rise of a branch of the religious right which reduces the role of women to the bottom of society. Atwood claimed that all of the things depicted in her fiction reflect real world attitudes and events. I would say that's how the incel culture goes beyond being a vent for sexual frustration among some white men to connecting to social movements. The base notes are hatred and at least contemplating violence. The higher frequencies mesh with the reactionary right. — frank

Atwood wrote this in the 1980s, while stationed behind the Iron Curtain. The rapid and insidious advancement of this social change she described has similarities with what happened in Germany in the 1930s - a step-by-step abolition of rights designed to restore a sense of entitlement to the ‘unfairly’ disenfranchised at the expense of a particularly franchised minority: in this fictional case, with the capacity to bear children. For women to possess this capacity and not use it, while so many ‘righteous’ and otherwise powerful, influential married men were stuck with infertile wives through no fault of their own, was seen as an attack on the stability of society itself. The solution was to remove the means by which fertile women could make their own choices: their basic financial rights.

I don’t think the base note of the Handmaid’s Tale or even Jewish oppression was hatred - it was a sense of entitlement. They were scrambling for a solution to restore what is considered to be a right, necessary for the ‘good’ of that society as a whole. The idea was that in such a situation we could become extinct if we allowed these fertile women (as a minority) to choose what to do with their own bodies.

As far as so-called ‘incels’ are concerned, I think their online movement, while despicable and insidious, is increasingly based on a minority argument. No one with any societal influence or power is going to align themselves with a movement based on the inferiority complex of a minority - it’s why all forms of oppression persist.

‘Incel’ is a counter-culture - a reaction to the realisation that identifying with this ideology - reductively that women exist to serve their individual needs - is rapidly rendering them a disenfranchised minority. By identifying themselves as ‘incels’ - as victims - they’re attempting to protect their ideology as the ‘essence’ of who they are. If we reject the ideology, we are effectively cancelling them as human beings who are clearly suffering - which, for some of the more compassionate posters here, seems to be giving us pause.

Perhaps that’s their entire game plan - a last ditch effort to preserve a dying and ineffective ideology by claiming it as their ‘essential’ identity. It’s a bit like using children as human shields… I’m not going to open fire, but neither will I condone the behaviour. I still consider someone who self-identifies as ‘incel’ to be a human being worthy of compassion, but in order to do so I emphatically reject the term as indicative of their identity. Their celibacy is not involuntary but selective, based on a false sense of entitlement. For me, the conversation starts here.

I agree. Why do you think the availability of prostitution does not meet the needs of incels? — frank

They think they're "owed" pussy. Having to buy it is humiliating. And a lot of them are losers who don't have any money.

Great post. I agree with all your points.

‘Incel’ is a counter-culture - a reaction to the realisation that identifying with this ideology - reductively that women exist to serve their individual needs - is rapidly rendering them a disenfranchised minority. By identifying themselves as ‘incels’ - as victims - they’re attempting to protect their ideology as the ‘essence’ of who they are. If we reject the ideology, we are effectively cancelling them as human beings who are clearly suffering - which, for some of the more compassionate posters here, seems to be giving us pause. — Possibility

I believe the success of women's rights and the movement of women into central roles in society has put stress on both sexes because of the conflict with old perspectives which hang around like ghosts.
Specifically for men, the conflict is this: in a patriarchal society, men are supposed to be the central columns of society and women are peripheral. Men have to grow up quickly to support this role. They have to go off and die in wars if necessary. They have to support their families and be responsible.

The pay off for this burden is that when they come home from work, they have food on the table and a cleaned house.. Their offspring are taken care of and ideally, if not in reality, they have a loving wife who is entirely dependent because she can't enter in a profession, business, or own property.

So if a young man unthinkingly falls into identifying with the old male ideal, he gets education, he takes on professional responsibilities and all the stress that goes with that, but there's nothing when he gets home. No reward.

I've long thought this larger psychosocial problem is related to the frustration that drives the incel culture. I do have compassion for them, but when a person crosses over into misogyny, they've passed through quite a few neon blinking warning signs that things have gotten pathological. It's really sad that instead of being in circumstances that highlight those warnings, they end up with others who egg them on. That's the internet part. The internet is alive with anger and frustration. You can see on this forum. It's like a cloud looking for an outlet.

Perhaps that’s their entire game plan - a last ditch effort to preserve a dying and ineffective ideology by claiming it as their ‘essential’ identity. It’s a bit like using children as human shields… I’m not going to open fire, but neither will I condone the behaviour. I still consider someone who self-identifies as ‘incel’ to be a human being worthy of compassion, but in order to do so I emphatically reject the term as indicative of their identity. Their celibacy is not involuntary but selective, based on a false sense of entitlement. For me, the conversation starts here. — Possibility

You're right.

They think they're "owed" pussy. Having to buy it is humiliating — RogueAI

It's the entitlement thing, yes.