How about a man/boy who no longer consents to be a man/boy?
And of course a woman/girl who no longer consents to being one? — universeness

Did they ever "consent" in the first place? AFAIK, no one "consents" to be born; one can only "consent" to destroy (or mutilate / modify) oneself.

Yeah, I was referring to consent after birth and perhaps even after you are legally recognised as an adult.
Some consider a tattoo or a body piercing, to be mutilation, most don't.
How about any form of plastic surgery, is any such a mutilation, I think some folks do look like they have mutilated themselves via plastic surgery but all things considered, I think modify is a much better term for use in the trans community, do you agree?
Yeah, suicide is also a choice, but certainly one I would personally try to dissuade someone from doing, unless they were terminally ill and suffering badly.

I used both terms because they reflect divergent(?) yet IMO valid interpretations. For the record, I'm pro-euthanasia, pro-abortion (i.e. pro-woman), antinatalist & anti-anthropocentric (i.e. pro-posthumanist).

I can't remember if you have already offered comment, regarding your support or lack of support of trans folks?

Well, I do not believe I'm trans-phobic.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/336888

It is not a choice.

I am an antinatalist and one of the reasons is because life is imposed on us without consent.

Also it is because I recognise how special human experience is and life can be an affront and suffering and our own bodies cause us great suffering.

But I believe that once we come to exist people should be protected and valued and encouraging delusions and compromising women's rights by allowing men to identify as them is pure dysfunction and reality denial.

It seems humans are the only creature able to discern the truth and our quest for the truth is somewhat noble. Gender ideology is a perversion of the truth.
Creating a world based on fictions could be described as escapism.

It is not a choice. — Andrew4Handel

Science and technology often extends human choice.

I am an antinatalist and one of the reasons is because life is imposed on us without consent. — Andrew4Handel

I am not an antinatalist and for what it's worth, if I could have been asked for consent to be born into this world I would have said yes.

But I believe that once we come to exist people should be protected and valued and encouraging delusions and compromising women's rights by allowing men to identify as them is pure dysfunction and reality denial. — Andrew4Handel

We have already exchanged our opinions on that issue.

Gender ideology is a perversion of the truth.
Creating a world based on fictions could be described as escapism. — Andrew4Handel

Your truth in this case, is not objective truth.

Personally, I no longer care about the 'junk in someone's trunk.'
I accept the gender and sex you tell me you are.
The rest is a matter of a case by case basis imo.
Who can go to which area and compete in which sport etc, is simply 'issues' yet to be fully ironed out.
In my youth and probably up to around my mid 30's, I was very 'anti,' towards all non-heterosexual people.
I then began to find their arguments too hard to defeat, so I dropped all of my objections.
They simply won their case imo.

I believe that humans could be unique in facing existential dilemmas.

We appear to be the only entities with a concept of truth and facts but as Hume pointed out you cannot get an "ought" from and "is".

Facts about reality do not compel us to behave a certain way or say how we ought to act or shape reality.

So I think a diverse range of things like law, social norms, taboos, gender ideology and religion may not have inherent truth value. But certain claims can be proven false like in the case of the bible containing falsities and contradictions.

I think falsity is the closest we can come to an ought in the sense that we can reject falsity as an unjustified grounds for action. Biological facts exclude gender identity from being true. Religions do not provide truthful justified grounds for actions.

In the case of human fabrications like laws and social structures we can treat them pragmatically as convenient fictions.

People who believe peoples gender identity claims should also believe peoples religious claims.

Like when people say the gods or God has/have spoken to them. Like people who say they recieved a sign or had a near death experience or witnessed a miracle. And All sorts of equally subjective religious anecdotes and then they should also advocate that these things to be enshrined in law as well as transracial and trans abled identities.

But I doubt people support this position and this would lead to outcomes of fantasy and conflicting ideological beliefs. Secularism should include secularism about gender identity and not inflicting other peoples self beliefs on other people.

You can see now that there is a global fight back against this ideology because people do not believe iot and are resisting.

Also I think the success of a human ideology is not proof of its truth. At most people religions and ideologies tell us something about human aspirations and insecurities and unconscious forces.

Might work for AGI machines (like Asimov's "Law of Robotics") but we're primates, first and foremost, driven by territorial, hierarchical, reproductive & tribal instincts amplified by a sliver of forebrain grey matter into (mal/adaptive) cognitive biases which reinforce in each one of us "I am special" (i.e. "more special than you"). Eusocially constrained self-serving organisms – delusional and struggling. To wit: if we "treat" everyone "as if we are special", Andrew, then no one will be "special". Human facticity – problems for us endure, or strive against, not for us to solve. — 180 Proof

Are you claiming everyone is driven by instincts or are their exceptions? I suffer from a lack of drive, motivation and reproductive urges so instincts seem to have bypassed me.

My notion of specialness is not a case of more special or conflicting rights.

I believe in human equality. I could look up the definition and etymology of specialness and discuss that but in my sense I am referring to unique human attributes shared by most humans and latent in other humans (babies/the unconscious etc)

I said we should be treated "as if" we are special which leaves open the possibility we are not but raises us up temporarily for respect and gives us reason to protect each others interests. I feel like some political and scientific systems treat humans as expendable, cogs in a machine etc or systems and tokens to be manipulated.

But societies are moving away from that with human rights language and welfare systems. And this also requires inherent compromise where we cannot all just do what we want and flourish or cohere.

People who believe peoples gender identity claims should also believe peoples religious claims. — Andrew4Handel

This is a fairly poor false equivalence. I'm sure you are a smart person but that sounds like the kind of limited thinking that would have someone provide rickety straw man arguments like - 'But what if someone identifies as a Lego brick, would you agree with that?' Yeah, right....

A religious claim involves something supernatural or ineffable which cannot be identified or even described (e.g., gods and goddesses). Gender identity is a human phenomenon we can identify and point to and have conversations about. For me gender is an open question, our understanding of it is developing all the time. What harm is there in allowing people to be who they need to be? And can this be answered without straw manning, catastrophizing or using the hasty generalization fallacy?

Sounds like trans issues really upset you.

I accept the gender and sex you tell me you are.
The rest is a matter of a case by case basis imo.
Who can go to which area and compete in which sport etc, is simply 'issues' yet to be fully ironed out.
In my youth and probably up to around my mid 30's, I was very 'anti,' towards all non-heterosexual people. — universeness

:up: Exactly. Humans can work the through issues. Gender is complex and if someone needs to be male or female on non-binary where the fuck is the problem? People think it's against god or against nature. They think it's a war on truth. I heard all the same shit about homosexuality back a few decades back and even now in some communities.

The arguments are almost irrelevant. It's here. It's happening. It's not going away. Deal with it respectfully and respect people's choices. We can prevent suicides and depression and miserable lives if we can just agree to accept people's need to be who they are.

What harm is there in allowing people to be who they need to be? — Tom Storm

Unethical surgeries that are causing increasingly well documented harms. A woman on excess testosterone increases her chances of dementia, stroke and Multiple sclerosis.

Woman are a real biological category and allowing men in their spaces and awards and sports is undermining their privacy dignity and security.

Lia Thomas won women swimming medals that biological women strove hard to get. They were exposed to his intact naked male body in the changing rooms (more of this is coming out as we speak.) This is misogynistic abuse and gas lighting. Gender identity does impact other people it is a state enforced religion and it should not be taught as a fact in schools.

It is far from harmless and you are in denial about the harms and my support for it decreases my the day the more the harms become evident.

There is no state of being in a state you need to be in. That is subjective. "I need to be a Hollywood celebrity." "I need their to be an afterlife." I need a million pounds. Our basic needs are biological and psychological needs are an inherently problematic area.

Anyone can claim anything to be necessary for psychological flourishing. Absolutely anything. It is self identified and subjective and unfalsifiable. But nobody can change sex or live as the opposite sex. A defleshed inverted penis is literally not a vagina and it is a misogynistic insult to call it so. Women's biology is how we all entered the world.

Mostly you seem unable to address the issue and are relying upon outliers and hasty generalization fallacies. Andrew, it is pretty clear this is a developing space and there are things we need to work through. But pointing to special examples the way you do is like pointing to abuse of boys by Catholic clergy and concluding homosexuality is child abuse.

But nobody can change sex or live as the opposite sex. A defleshed inverted penis is literally not a vagina and it is a misogynistic insult to call it so. Women's biology is how we all entered the world. — Andrew4Handel

That is such a literal minded, banal observation. It is pretty clear empirically that people do live well and happily as genders other than their birth gender. A reductive focus on sex organs and sex in general is beside the point.

As they say in court - you find your experts, I'll find mine.

I've known personally and worked with a fair number of trans people. It has always been a marked quality of life improvement for each of them. I now know a number of teens who have identified as trans. Their lives have also improved immeasurably. The lived experience is the thing that matters. But I fail to see how a ceaseless back and forth on this is of any use. Trans is here to stay - the arguments are largely moot.

Nobody has ever changed sex or inhabited a special gender like non binary. So I do not believe Trans exists just bodily adjustments in males and females and performance of stereotypes.

I have met four males identifying as women. Two of them through the local autistic services I have used and the other two exhibiting autistic traits and complex mental health issues none of them passed as the desired "gender"

I don't know where you are meeting your trans identified people, I also follow gender related forums and twitter closely so now have a wide knowledge of issues in this area from surgeries to definitions, gender theory , to being a member of the categories "gay" and "autistic".

Religious people are never going to go away it seems but that doesn't mean we have to respect there questionable or fictional beliefs and structure society around them.

. I heard all the same shit about homosexuality back a few decades back and even now in some communities. — Tom Storm

The gay rights movement eventually improved the lives of folks like @Andrew4Handel significantly, in many countries of the world. An openly gay person can now become a political leader.
It's a pity he can't find it in himself to help achieve for another minority group what has been achieved for him, after what seems to me to have been a very very hard fought fight.
My personal acceptance of people as they want to be, when it really is no serious threat to 'human civilisation,' allows me to even have 'some understanding' towards folks who choose such as:

or

What sex or gender a person chooses to be, worries me a lot less, (in fact it pales into insignificance in comparison) compared to a person who chooses to be a trump supporter, a religious zealot, a capitalist, a billionaire, a plutocrat, a celebrity cult, a personality cult, a narcissist, an autocrat, an aristocrat, etc.

What sex or gender a person chooses to be, worries me a lot less, (in fact it pales into insignificance in comparison) compared to a person who chooses to be a trump supporter, a religious zealot, a capitalist, a billionaire, a plutocrat, a celebrity cult, a personality cult, a narcissist, an autocrat, an aristocrat, etc. — universeness

:fire: I hear you.

Geez I bet that first dude has a great time at airport security. (I've seen an earlier photo of the second dude but I think he's changed his spots.)

I want to add something more about the actual topic. I think Aristotle articulated something fundamental with his classification of man as 'the rational animal'. Rationality (and language, and all that it brings) is a difference that makes a difference. Likewise the ability to ask 'who or what am I', to contemplate death and immortality, and to do all the innumerable other things that h. sapiens alone seems able to do. My firm conviction is that h.sapiens transcends biology, and is able to realise horizons of being that are, as far as we know, unique to us.

Geez I bet that first dude has a great time at airport security. — Wayfarer

:lol: and surely they itch something awful at times!
This woman Elaine Davidson holds the world record for the most facial piercings:

My firm conviction is that h.sapiens transcends biology, and is able to realise horizons of being that are, as far as we know, unique to us. — Wayfarer

:up:

the things we do for love, eh ;-)

The gay rights movement eventually improved the lives of folks like Andrew4Handel significantly, in many countries of the world. An openly gay person can now become a political leader.
It's a pity he can't find it in himself to help achieve for another minority group what has been achieved for him, after what seems to me to have been a very very hard fought fight. — universeness

This is ridiculous. It indicates you have barely read any of my posts on this topic.

Calling a group a minority does not make them credible or sympathetic. Terrorists, Paedophiles and murderers are minorities.

So here is a list of a few criticism I have made of gender ideology and trans identity none of which can be levelled at homosexuality.

1. Women's rights are compromised by allowing men to identify as them
1.(b) There are no longer women only spaces
2. No one can change sex
3.Gender identities are meaningless and incoherent
4. Phalloplasties and inverting penises are genital mutilation.
5. Puberty Blockers are harmful and chemically castrate children and stunt their development.
6. Gay people are same sex attracted and are having their identity , reputation and spaces undermined.
7. Gay detransitioners regret castrating themselves or having double mastectomies due to internal and external homophobia
8. Gender ideology is homophobic and misogynistic and encourages children to reject their bodies.
9. Gender affirming health care is experimental and being increasingly discredited
10. Gender critical beliefs are protected by law in the UK.
11. We should not be forced to have to affirm peoples self beliefs.

What sex or gender a person chooses to be, worries me a lot less, (in fact it pales into insignificance in comparison) — universeness

Is that because you are not a women in sheltered accommodation? Is that because your penis or vagina is still intact and you are not poisoning yourself with wrong sex hormones?

Is that because you are not an a elite female sports woman having to share a changing room with a penis that then goes onto to beat you at your sport because he has gone through a male puberty and has bigger stronger bone structure and larger lungs and is over 6ft.

Is that because you don't have MS, early on set dementia or cardiac arrest due to poisoning yourself with cross sex hormones that your body does not want or need.

Or is it because you are not a gender non conforming gay child who is being told he must be born in the wrong body?

Or maybe it is because you are not a member of the gay community whose reputation is being trashed?

My firm conviction is that h.sapiens transcends biology, and is able to realise horizons of being that are, as far as we know, unique to us. — Wayfarer

I do accept that humans beings have proven capable of a wide array of almost transcendent things through thought and deed including the worst depravity and greatest self sacrifice, feats of thought art and technology.

But I feel biology trumps psychology and for a wide range of people that and circumstances places severe limitations on them.
My older brother was disabled for most of His adult life by Multiple sclerosis and was eventually paralysed by MS and communicated by blinking and was simply unable to a lot of things before dying prematurely at 47.

I don't believe people can do anything or anything they put their mind to or that they are existentially free.

However I have just been reminded of a Woman with Locked in Syndrome who completed a degree by Blinking facilitated technology which is amazing.

This is ridiculous. It indicates you have barely read any of my posts on this topic. — Andrew4Handel

I have read your posts on this thread. I agree with others who have posted that your claims are about outliers. You don't comment on the majority of trans folks who are very happy indeed with the path they have taken. I hear them say so, on their on-line community representations.

Calling a group a minority does not make them credible or sympathetic. Terrorists, Paedophiles and murderers are minorities. — Andrew4Handel

I have no interest in invoking sympathy for any minority group. I support ensuring that any minority group has their basic human rights fully respected.

Your 11 points are just your opinions they are not facts.
Which peer reviewed study of all women on Earth are you citing that shows they think the trans community has a major detrimental effect on their rights and their 'women only' spaces?
I could write a refutation of each of your 11 points very easily.
A person can change their sex via personal psyche, hormone therapy and surgery. They currently cannot change their chromosomal sex or produce the gametes their preferred sex produces, but science will probably be able to do both at some point in the future. Changing 3 out of 5 elements aint bad at all.
What you call genital mutilation is corrective surgery for the majority of the trans folks who take that path.

One of the greatest entertainers ever, Little Richard, had an almighty battle with homosexuality. He was a homosexual then he rejected it and became a gospel singing preacher who became anti-homosexual then he became a homosexual again. So, some homosexuals have been as conflicted and confused as the outliers you mention in the trans community.
Quentin Crisp said:
The rest of the world in which I lived was still stumbling about in search of a weapon with which to exterminate this monster [homosexuality] whose shape and size were not yet known or even guessed at. It was thought to be Greek in origin, smaller than socialism but more deadly, especially to children.

Sounds rather similar to some of your current red flag danger waving, towards trans folks.

In 1977 Quentin Crisp told the Times newspaper that he would advise parents to abort a foetus, if it could be shown to be genetically predetermined to be gay: "If It (homosexuality) can be avoided, it should be"

It looks to me like the homosexual community has and had it's outliers as well.

Peter Tatchell, who is a well known gay and trans rights campaigner condemns Crisp with:
Quentin was no gay hero, jealousy made him bitter, he was no longer the only queer in town

From The Peter Tatchell foundation, we have:
For over five decades, I have argued that women’s rights are human rights and supported hundreds of women’s rights campaigns in the UK and worldwide. There can be no liberation without women’s liberation.

Equally, for the same five decades, I have supported the struggle for trans equality, respect, dignity and human rights. I see no contradiction between trans and women’s liberation. Both have my support. I echo the stance of the many pro-trans feminists.

I oppose the trans critical views of Germaine Greer, JK Rowling and others but urge an end to abuse and intimidation by some people on both sides of the argument, including the insults, threats and smears directed against trans people and trans allies like myself.

With all due respect, I value expert campaigners from the homosexual community, such as Peter Tatchell, regarding the trans community and the actual trans folks I have heard speak on line, rather than the somewhat irrational claims coming from you.

What sex or gender a person chooses to be, worries me a lot less, (in fact it pales into insignificance in comparison)
— universeness

Is that because you are not a women in sheltered accommodation? — Andrew4Handel

No

Is that because your penis or vagina is still intact and you are not poisoning yourself with wrong sex hormones? — Andrew4Handel

No

Is that because you are not an a elite female sports woman having to share a changing room with a penis that then goes onto to beat you at your sport because he has gone through a male puberty and has bigger stronger bone structure and larger lungs and is over 6ft. — Andrew4Handel

No

Is that because you don't have MS, early on set dementia or cardiac arrest due to poisoning yourself with cross sex hormones that your body does not want or need. — Andrew4Handel

No

Or is it because you are not a gender non conforming gay child who is being told he must be born in the wrong body? — Andrew4Handel

No

Or maybe it is because you are not a member of the gay community whose reputation is being trashed? — Andrew4Handel

No

It's because a trump supporter, a religious zealot, a capitalist, a billionaire, a plutocrat, a celebrity cult, a personality cult, a narcissist, an autocrat, an aristocrat, etc, is a far greater threat to the human race, than what sexual preference or identity a person has.

Exactly. Humans can work the through issues. Gender is complex and if someone needs to be male or female on non-binary where the fuck is the problem? People think it's against god or against nature. They think it's a war on truth. I heard all the same shit about homosexuality back a few decades back and even now in some communities. — Tom Storm

Oh, I do think there are some issues to address but I think we can address them without condemning transsexuals or transgenders. Some policy suggestions:

1. Transsexuals competing in sports, particulary man to woman transsexuals, still have a significant advantage in endurance and strength, which I do believe is unfair. But easily resolved if we say you can only compete in activities based on the sex you were born with;
2. If you still have a penis, you use the men's room and don't enter the female's only sauna (and vice versa), irrespective of any other steps in your transition
3. There's a significant uptick in transitioning and gender dysphoria in recent years that hasn't been explained. My pet theory is that gender stereotypes have become more extreme due to tik-tokkable and instagrammable views of extreme feminity and masculinity, leading to increased rejection of people who do not fit the norm (such rejection can be real or perceived). In other words, societies have become less liberal and accepting of variation in gender expression with an increased risk of gender dysphoria as a result. I would really be interested in more research in this area and see if more toleration can lead to a lower need for gender affirming surgery since I do believe all surgery carries risks that are better avoided.

Not this one, no. OTOH, somehow all the people looking for how people are unique neglect to mention the unique human ability to fuck in numerous, varied and spectacular ways. — Vera Mont

Tell me more.

j/k Please don't. I have very tender sensibilities.

Not this one, no. OTOH, somehow all the people looking for how people are unique neglect to mention the unique human ability to fuck in numerous, varied and spectacular ways. — Vera Mont

Oh, dear, oh dear! My failure to edit and proofread results in much misunderstanding! I usually catch those gaffes sooner or later. In this instance, while the statement as it reads is certainly true, what I meant, of course, was to make messes, cause problems, spoil things and break stuff; SNAFU, with the crucial 'up' accidentally omitted.
I do apologize most sincerely for any bruising of tender sensibilities.

My pet theory is that gender stereotypes have become more extreme due to tik-tokkable and instagrammable views of extreme feminity and masculinity, leading to increased rejection of people who do not fit the norm (such rejection can be real or perceived). In other words, societies have become less liberal and accepting of variation in gender expression with an increased risk of gender dysphoria as a result. — Benkei

Interesting. I'm sure social media plays a role. I think the other fact is that if you build awareness (and tolerance) then more people will feel comfortable to identify and explore their identity.

I think we can address them without condemning transsexuals or transgenders. — Benkei

I think this is the key. As humans we are constantly extending ourselves. We can do it. And sure, there may be challenges and dilemas along the way.