I do not see coincidence as the dominant principle - design is the dominant principle of the universe.
— Thinker
I don't see design/coincidence as a legitimate choice. — Terrapin Station
There is order in the universe.
There is cause and effect in the universe.
Order is a function of cause and effect. — Thinker
don't see the contradiction. Can you specify — TheMadFool
You seem like a novice with regards to logic. One could reorder the above to make a valid argument as follows:
There is cause and effect in the universe.
Order is a function of cause and effect.
Therefore, there is order in the universe.
But what does it mean to say that order is a function of cause and effect, and how do you get from that to the conclusion that a conscious agency created the universe? — Sapientia
As for analogies with situations like finding a tidy room or a watch on the beach, these are false analogies, and have long since been shown to be so. I don't see the point in starting with the argument, rather than by addressing the problems with it. — Sapientia
My logic forms a hypothesis – not a conclusion – a big difference. — Thinker
The logic of the analogy is of a tidy room. Not a found room or universe. — Thinker
Conditions that are observed. A tidy room is analogous to an ordered universe. The tidy room is a representation of how the universe is observed to be orderly. The universe is orderly like a tidy room. I think the logic flows. It is a hypothesis. — Thinker
I have asked you to clarify this supposed orderliness, and you have not done so. — Sapientia
Fine, but that doesn't excuse you from evading my two-part question. What does it mean to say that order is a function of cause and effect, and how do you get from your hypothesis to the conclusion that a conscious agency created the universe? Or do you not have any reason to conclude that? — Sapientia
Cause and effect are part of physics. Therefore the laws of physics bring about a degree of order. There is also a degree of disorder which happens by coincidence. However, order seems to be the dominate principle, but not always. I do not conclude a conscious agency created the universe – I hypothesize a conscious agency created the universe. — Thinker
I tried to lay out my case logically and you mock me – ok – I can absorb that. However, I do not see a serious argument from you? — Thinker
It's more than mocking. It's a case in point of why having a hypothesis is not in itself good enough grounds for anything other than speculation. — Sapientia
This suggests God must have made this planet orderly for us. If no God, we'd have been stuck on a place that is disorderly like Venus perhaps (lacking in about half those qualities). Is that what you're suggesting?Additionally I see order in our planet. The following factors - distance from the sun, the atmosphere, plenty of water and food, good air to breathe, gravity, etc. These are orderly conditions. — Thinker
Are you trolling or...? — Sapientia
The second one by no means follows from the first. Cause and effect do not necessarily bring about order. Order can be had without cause and effect. The integers are nice and orderly, all equally spaced and whatnot. No cause and effect made them that way.Cause and effect are part of physics. Therefore the laws of physics bring about a degree of order. — Thinker
I do not conclude a conscious agency created the universe – I hypothesize a conscious agency created the universe. — Thinker
The second one by no means follows from the first. Cause and effect do not necessarily bring about order. Order can be had without cause and effect. The integers are nice and orderly, all equally spaced and whatnot. No cause and effect made them that way. — noAxioms
I speculate there is a God - I can not prove God. — Thinker
What is the point of contributing to this thread then? You must think you have some sort of argument, even if not proof.I speculate there is a God - I can not prove God. — Thinker
That's a good reason not to do so. — Sapientia
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