• Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The tidy room is a lower entropy state compared to the messy room.
    The more ordered universe is higher entropy than the a universe with stuff strewn randomly about. The comparison thus fails.
    noAxioms

    Why would ordered/disordered be flipped there?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    What I did say repeatedly is that the tidy room is not coincidence.Thinker

    Right. And you simply got silly when I asked you why you were talking about coincidences. Could you seriously answer why you're bringing up that term now?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Why wouldn't order be a sufficient reason to deduce "not God" in that caseTerrapin Station

    What crosses your mind when you see a clean room? Person or not-person?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Order is not defined as resulting from the actions of a conscious agencyNoblosh

    How do you define order then?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    What crosses your mind when you see a clean room? Person or not-person?TheMadFool

    What really crosses my mind is, "Hmm, this isn't my room."

    But that's not what you're asking, of course.

    Do you want me to answer in the context of me pretending to not know what rooms are, how they come to have things in them, how they come to have the things in them arranged in a particular way, etc.?
  • Thinker
    200
    If there's no God, there's no proof for God's existence.
    There's no proof for God's existence.
    Therefore there's no God.
    That's valid according to your fallacious logic.
    Noblosh

    That is not my logic – my logic would be:
    There is order in the universe.
    There is cause and effect in the universe.
    Order is a function of cause and effect.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I understand entropy as a measure of ''disorder'', so I don't umderstand how a tidy room has lower entropy while a ordered umiverse has higher entropy. Can you clarify (please keep it simple).
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Forget the room. You see a watch on the table. Person or not-person?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    Again, do you want me to answer where I'd pretend to not know what watches are and how they're made? (Or artifacts of that sort?)
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    Why would ordered/disordered be flipped there?Terrapin Station
    It requires work to make the room tidy, but matter strewn about randomly would result in far more energy available for work, mostly due to potential energy of not being so deep in all the gravity wells.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    It requires work to make the room tidy,noAxioms

    But you'd have to assume that it doesn't require work to make the universe tidy.
  • Thinker
    200
    Right. And you simply got silly when I asked you why you were talking about coincidences. Could you seriously answer why you're bringing up that term now?Terrapin Station

    Because the number of coincidences are too numerous to ignore.
  • Thinker
    200
    But you'd have to assume that it doesn't require work to make the universe tidy.Terrapin Station

    It takes cause and effect.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Because the number of coincidences are too numerous to ignore.Thinker

    So are you saying that on your view either things are designed or they're coincidences?
  • Thinker
    200
    So are you saying that on your view either things are designed or they're coincidences?Terrapin Station

    That is each person's existential choice.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    That is each person's existential choice.Thinker

    What?? I don't think you understood my question.

    Are you saying that on your view, there are just two choices--either things are designed or they're coincidences? Is that correct?
  • Thinker
    200
    Are you saying that on your view, there are just two choices--either things are designed or they're coincidences? Is that correct?Terrapin Station

    3 choices - either - or - and/or - both.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Also called 'An act of God'. Thus a tidy room is a sign of the absence of God, and the presence of fairies, or some other anal retentive beingunenlightened

    LoL

    Fine, let me ask another question (relevant). What other cause do you have in mind when you see the universe working like clockwork?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    Right. So why would you think that things would have to be coincidences if not designed? Why couldn't they be the result of something like physical laws rather than coincidences?
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    I understand entropy as a measure of ''disorder'', so I don't umderstand how a tidy room has lower entropy while a ordered umiverse has higher entropy. Can you clarify (please keep it simple).TheMadFool
    Entropy is a measure of energy available for doing work, as opposed to energy not thus available. It requires work to make a room tidy, but not to make matter go downhill and gather naturally into clumps. A neat pile of rocks in a flat place like Hunebeds are a sign of conscious agency. The same pile of rocks at the base of a mountainside is not.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Again, do you want me to answer where I'd pretend to not know what watches are and how they're made?Terrapin Station

    Watch: a small timepiece worn typically on a strap on one's wrist.

    Please use the above Google definition of ''watch''.

    Person or not-person?
  • Thinker
    200
    Right. So why would you think that things would have to be coincidences if not designed? Why couldn't they be the result of something like physical laws rather than coincidences?Terrapin Station

    There is order in the universe.
    There is cause and effect in the universe.
    Order is a function of cause and effect.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    But you'd have to assume that it doesn't require work to make the universe tidy.Terrapin Station
    The tidying of the universe indeed does not require work. Instead of requiring energy, it releases it. Hydroelectric dams harness the negative work required to make the water all tidy and in one low place.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    When I ask you a simple yes or no question, why can't you answer yes or no? C'mon. You're making this way more difficult and laborious than it has to be.

    Yes or no, do you want me to answer where I'm pretending to not know what watches and similar artifacts are and how they are made? I'd have a different answer if I were doing that.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    There is order in the universe.
    There is cause and effect in the universe.
    Order is a function of cause and effect.
    Thinker

    What in the world does that have to do with why you'd be assuming a "designed or coincidence" dichotomy?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The tidying of the universe indeed does not require work.noAxioms

    That's a statement of what you'd be assuming.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    There is order in the universe.
    There is cause and effect in the universe.
    Order is a function of cause and effect.
    Thinker
    Is that last line an assertion or a conclusion? If the latter, it doesn't follow.
  • Thinker
    200
    What in the world does that have to do with why you'd be assuming a "designed or coincidence" dichotomy?Terrapin Station

    I do not see coincidence as the dominant principle - design is the dominant principle of the universe.


    Is that last line an assertion or a conclusion? If the latter, it doesn't follow.noAxioms

    I would agree it is an assertion - a hypothesis.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    I do not see coincidence as the dominant principle - design is the dominant principle of the universe.Thinker

    I don't see design/coincidence as a legitimate choice.
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