The tidy room is a lower entropy state compared to the messy room.
The more ordered universe is higher entropy than the a universe with stuff strewn randomly about. The comparison thus fails. — noAxioms
What I did say repeatedly is that the tidy room is not coincidence. — Thinker
Why wouldn't order be a sufficient reason to deduce "not God" in that case — Terrapin Station
Order is not defined as resulting from the actions of a conscious agency — Noblosh
What crosses your mind when you see a clean room? Person or not-person? — TheMadFool
If there's no God, there's no proof for God's existence.
There's no proof for God's existence.
Therefore there's no God.
That's valid according to your fallacious logic. — Noblosh
It requires work to make the room tidy, but matter strewn about randomly would result in far more energy available for work, mostly due to potential energy of not being so deep in all the gravity wells.Why would ordered/disordered be flipped there? — Terrapin Station
It requires work to make the room tidy, — noAxioms
Right. And you simply got silly when I asked you why you were talking about coincidences. Could you seriously answer why you're bringing up that term now? — Terrapin Station
But you'd have to assume that it doesn't require work to make the universe tidy. — Terrapin Station
Because the number of coincidences are too numerous to ignore. — Thinker
So are you saying that on your view either things are designed or they're coincidences? — Terrapin Station
That is each person's existential choice. — Thinker
Are you saying that on your view, there are just two choices--either things are designed or they're coincidences? Is that correct? — Terrapin Station
Also called 'An act of God'. Thus a tidy room is a sign of the absence of God, and the presence of fairies, or some other anal retentive being — unenlightened
Entropy is a measure of energy available for doing work, as opposed to energy not thus available. It requires work to make a room tidy, but not to make matter go downhill and gather naturally into clumps. A neat pile of rocks in a flat place like Hunebeds are a sign of conscious agency. The same pile of rocks at the base of a mountainside is not.I understand entropy as a measure of ''disorder'', so I don't umderstand how a tidy room has lower entropy while a ordered umiverse has higher entropy. Can you clarify (please keep it simple). — TheMadFool
Again, do you want me to answer where I'd pretend to not know what watches are and how they're made? — Terrapin Station
Right. So why would you think that things would have to be coincidences if not designed? Why couldn't they be the result of something like physical laws rather than coincidences? — Terrapin Station
The tidying of the universe indeed does not require work. Instead of requiring energy, it releases it. Hydroelectric dams harness the negative work required to make the water all tidy and in one low place.But you'd have to assume that it doesn't require work to make the universe tidy. — Terrapin Station
There is order in the universe.
There is cause and effect in the universe.
Order is a function of cause and effect. — Thinker
The tidying of the universe indeed does not require work. — noAxioms
What in the world does that have to do with why you'd be assuming a "designed or coincidence" dichotomy? — Terrapin Station
Is that last line an assertion or a conclusion? If the latter, it doesn't follow. — noAxioms
I do not see coincidence as the dominant principle - design is the dominant principle of the universe. — Thinker
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