• Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Because the tidy room is not coincidence.Thinker

    Well, it's not ice cream, either, is it?

    Why not say that?

    Or how about a musical composition? Is it that? Why not say it's not a musical composition?
  • Thinker
    200
    Well, it's not ice cream, either, is it?

    Why not say that?
    Terrapin Station

    Because ice cream we eat in the tidy room.
  • lambda
    76
    Why is this version of the same argument difficult for atheists to swallow?TheMadFool

    The answer is simple: sin. They don't want to give up their sinful lifestyle.
  • Thinker
    200
    The answer is simple: sin. They don't want to give up their sinful lifestyle.lambda

    Ice cream is sinful?
  • Noblosh
    152
    One thing is to be irrational, another to be fallacious or nonsensical.
    Too bad this forum has no moderation.
  • Thinker
    200
    One thing is to be irrational, another to be fallacious and nonsensical.
    Too bad this forum has no moderation.
    Noblosh

    Well, I vote to make you the moderator of what is fallacious.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    One thing is to be irrational, another to be fallacious or nonsensical.
    Too bad this forum has no moderation.
    Noblosh

    Yeah, I don't know if Thinker was ever serious in this thread, but it seems like he lost interest in that, at least.
  • Thinker
    200
    I think the crux of the matter comes down to causation. Is there cause and effect in the universe? I think there is. Order is a function of cause and effect. If the universe is orderly – why is it so? That is the question.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    What does cause and effect have to do with the idea of there being sentience behind the same?
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    there is no messTheMadFool

    In which case a tidy room is unsurprising to the extent of being inevitable. Don't tell my kids.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Non sequitur: Affirming the consequent.Noblosh

    So, according to you, a clean room is insufficient evidence for the existence of an agency that did the cleaning. That means you think it's possible for a clean room AND the nonexistence of an agency that does the cleaning. Put otherwise you see another cause for the cleanliness. Apart from how incongruous such reasoning is (most people think otherwise) you'll have to furnish another cause for the cleanliness of the room. Can you do that?
  • Thinker
    200
    What does cause and effect have to do with the idea of their being sentience behind the same?Terrapin Station

    No one can prove a sentient force put in motion cause and effect. All I can say is thank you for doing a good and orderly job. Can anybody prove a sentient force is not responsible? I have not heard that proof – yet.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    If we're using this definition, humans and some other organisms would fall into the category of "God".Harry Hindu

    Well, as I admitted, my definition diminishes the value of the argument. Nonetheless you'll not deny that a creator of the universe certainly at a different level than say, the creator of ice cream.

    You said:
    Actually no. Observations have shown that organization out of chaos is the result of the application of energy, not conscious agency.Harry Hindu

    And then you said:

    There isn't order in the universe.Harry Hindu
  • Noblosh
    152
    according to youTheMadFool
    According to logic*. I don't have to come up with a counterargument if your argument is fallacious.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    According to logic*. I don't have to come up with a counterargument if your argument is fallacious.Noblosh

    Can you give me a reason why order is insufficient reason to deduce the existence of God?
  • Thinker
    200
    According to logic*. I don't have to come up with a counterargument if your argument is fallacious.Noblosh

    I never got your argument of fallacious logic - I guess you don't need it - just say it is so. Maybe if you say it repeatedly we will take it as fact - and then there is the small detail of no counterargument.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    In which case a tidy room is unsurprising to the extent of being inevitable. Don't tell my kids.unenlightened

    An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. However, a tidy room can only be caused by a person.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    The answer is simple: sin. They don't want to give up their sinful lifestyle.lambda

    Possible.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    No one can prove a sentient force put in motion cause and effect. All I can say is thank you for doing a good and orderly job. Can anybody prove a sentient force is not responsible? I have not heard that proof – yet.Thinker

    Empirical claims are not provable. So no need to worry about that from any angle.

    So, the question becomes--why would we believe one option or another? What's the answer to that?
  • Thinker
    200
    An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. However, a tidy room can only be caused by a person.TheMadFool

    Actually the tidy room is both tidy and untidy because it is a quantum tidy room. I like being absurd – it's untidy.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Can you give me a reason why order is insufficient reason to deduce the existence of God?TheMadFool

    Why wouldn't order be a sufficient reason to deduce "not God" in that case?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. However, a tidy room can only be caused by a person.TheMadFool

    In the scenario where we have no idea what causes a room, its furniture, etc. to exist, on what grounds are we concluding that a tidy room can only be cause by a person?
  • Thinker
    200
    So, the question becomes--why would we believe one option or another? What's the answer to that?Terrapin Station

    Preference – why do we have a predilection? Another untidy phenomenon thrown into the mix. Where did “it” come from?
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc.TheMadFool

    Also called 'An act of God'. Thus a tidy room is a sign of the absence of God, and the presence of fairies, or some other anal retentive being.
  • Thinker
    200
    Preference – why do we have a predilection? Another untidy phenomenon thrown into the mix. Where did “it” come from?Thinker

    Now, we get back to the idea of coincidence – we are starting to get a lot of very fortunate coincidences. How lucky for us.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Preference – why do we have a predilection? Another untidy phenomenon thrown into the mix. Where did “it” come from?Thinker

    Preference is the only reason you'd believe one thing rather than another?? Yikes. ;-)
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Now, we get back to the idea of coincidence – we are starting to get a lot of very fortunate coincidences. How lucky for us.Thinker

    Back to the idea? You wouldn't say where the idea was coming from in the first place.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    The tidy room is a lower entropy state compared to the messy room.
    The more ordered universe is higher entropy than the a universe with stuff strewn randomly about. The comparison thus fails.

    The argument also applies our intuitions about entropy against a system (God's world) where there is no such law.
  • Noblosh
    152
    Can you give me a reason why order is insufficient reason to deduce the existence of God?TheMadFool
    Order is not defined as resulting from the actions of a conscious agency.

    I never got your argument of fallacious logicThinker
    If there's no God, there's no proof for God's existence.
    There's no proof for God's existence.
    Therefore there's no God.

    That's valid according to your fallacious logic.

    If you need a more in-depth explanation, check an article on it.
  • Thinker
    200
    Back to the idea? You wouldn't say where the idea was coming from in the first place.Terrapin Station

    What I did say repeatedly is that the tidy room is not coincidence. What I am saying additionally is that consciousness and volition are also not coincidence.
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