I just meant that I don't get so emotionally invested in a story that I agonize over it. It's more an intellectual exercise for me. — Vera Mont

Was it always like this for you? Or was there a time as a beginner when you felt the strangeness and anxiety of finding yourself in your writing?
When the unconscious or subconscious meets the conscious...if you understand what I mean?

Perhaps you always had a strong sense of identity. In the past, there were no obvious gender issues. And I can see how they aren't a necessary part in a story.

However, many strong women fighting for their rights suffered through centuries of well, I won't go on...you know history better than I do. You've lived through it!

There was a time when women would try to hide any masculine attributes. A fear of societal spurning. She's like a man. No pink frills and childlike giggles. Is she gay? Not so much these days. Perhaps that's liberation...

I identify as female and don't have a problem with that. I didn't agonise over Red, White and Blue, and I didn't have time to get too emotionally invested.
It's just that I became aware of new thoughts arising as I let go. Unsettling. But exciting at the same time. I'm not sure that will ever happen again.

I'm thinking of reworking the Blue Willow story to include more details of Canadian women's history as well as more of the narrator's personality. But it's already quite long, and I'm not up for the intensive research a novel would require, so I keep shelving it. No great passion; just weighing options. — Vera Mont

What 'Blue Willow' story ? The only story I can recall about a woman is 'Dawn'.
And that sounded to me like part of an intriguing novel.

I don't see how there can be no passion or urge involved when it comes to the effort required to research. Or at least, enjoyment. If it gets too heavy, then you are wise to think again. But you're well ahead of the game !

I can't make long-term commitments. — Vera Mont

Ditto.

If a literary challenge is presented, poetry or prose, I'd like to participate -- unless it's a format in which I feel hopelessly incompetent. — Vera Mont

A literary challenge. I would love to start such a thing but I don't feel remotely competent in organising anything like that! Given that I'm still very much a learner and find it all a bit overwhelming, even to participate.

Laptop failure probably means I'll have to go shopping...such a pain!

Was it always like this for you? Or was there a time as a beginner when you felt the strangeness and anxiety of finding yourself in your writing?
When the unconscious or subconscious meets the conscious...if you understand what I mean? — Amity

I don't think there was such a time. I made up my first poem before I could write and I told stories to my pets, relatives, playmate and little brother since I can remember. No anxiety at all back then; sublime confidence. As an adult, I often fretted over the right tone, cadence, structure, word choice, concision and precision, but not nothing I can identify as 'finding myself'. I guess I never felt lost or obscure or confused - I even have a pretty good idea where my dreams come from. I've often wondered whether I'm just shallow.

Perhaps you always had a strong sense of identity. In the past, there were no obvious gender issues. And I can see how they aren't a necessary part in a story. — Amity

That's a much more positive perspective. My characters, straight and gay, don't have any doubts of their identity: it wasn't required for the stories, and I wouldn't know how to convey that convincingly.
(I admit, though, that on forums up until this one, I'd been content to let people assume I was male, to avoid the tedious condescension.

However, many strong women fighting for their rights suffered through centuries of well, I won't go on...you know history better than I do. You've lived through it! — Amity

I did some mild activism for the cause - among others. (Nothing courageous. The Greenpeace guys thought my only possible function was to stuff envelopes, make coffee and keep quiet. I didn't stay long.)

What 'Blue Willow' story ? The only story I can recall about a woman is 'Dawn'. — Amity

It's in the same collection with Dawn. A grandmother recounting the 200 years witnessed by a family heirloom. I doubt it would interest anyone but Canadians.

I don't see how there can be no passion or urge involved when it comes to the effort required to research. Or at least, enjoyment. — Amity

The core message can be important - or frivolous - and I do enjoy the process, including research, organizing the material, constructing the plot, and I love stage-setting. I really enjoyed working on sets in amateur theater, as well. I suppose because it crosses media; I like construction, painting and drama.

I'm right with you on organizing humans and human activities. I couldn't be a director, administrator or team leader.

I made up my first poem before I could write and I told stories to my pets, relatives, playmate and little brother since I can remember — Vera Mont

A born story-teller, gifted with imagination and the spirit of creativity. I guess you took it as natural and confident in audience reaction. Cats purring.

As an adult, I often fretted over the right tone, cadence, structure, word choice, concision and precision, but not nothing I can identify as 'finding myself'. I guess I never felt lost or obscure or confused - I even have a pretty good idea where my dreams come from. I've often wondered whether I'm just shallow. — Vera Mont

The adult gains more knowledge and awareness of technical detail and skills via education and courses? Different ways to manipulate words for maximum enjoyment?
No need to 'find yourself'. You already knew Vera. Happy in her skin with a clear sense of purpose and direction. It seems you never surprised yourself with new revelations or ideas impacting you or changing ways of thinking? Even knowing what your dreams were about. Jung would be proud!

Why would this make you 'shallow' ? I don't see it. Not one little bit. With all your critical skills sharing experiences and positive attitude. An active wry humour even with all that life throws at you. 'Tedious condescension' being only a small part of it.

I didn't know you had a Blue Willow Collection.

A grandmother recounting the 200 years witnessed by a family heirloom. I doubt it would interest anyone but Canadians. — Vera Mont

Your doubt is not well-founded. Recently, I found myself with an Appalachian accent. Kingsolver and a few other authors to blame.
Canada is one of those countries loved my many nationalities. And family sagas from a female point of view...hits the spot...with an heirloom passed down the generations. Not a bone China tea set or dish by any chance?

The core message can be important - or frivolous - and I do enjoy the process, including research, organizing the material, constructing the plot, and I love stage-setting. I really enjoyed working on sets in amateur theater, as well. I suppose because it crosses media; I like construction, painting and drama. — Vera Mont

'The core message'. 'I think I read that a writer should have the conclusion or destination in mind before they start. What they want to achieve. I guess that's more important for a novel than a short story. Is your novel a series of linked short stories? Your enjoyment is clear and quite contagious. It touches me.

Now, though, writing this is giving me a pain in the neck. New laptop required.

What 'Blue Willow' story ? The only story I can recall about a woman is 'Dawn'.
— Amity
It's in the same collection with Dawn — Vera Mont

For those who didn't read 'Dawn' by Vera. It's from 'Short Stories 2023'.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/50/short-stories-dec-2023

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14882/dawn-by-vera-mont

And now I'm wondering if TPF is in the process of moving, will the Competitions
be packed up and archived so that the stories/poems are not lost?

Should we be downloading stuff that we'd like to keep?
@Jamal @fdrake

Any response to previous question re future of the Literary Activity/Challenge would also be appreciated. It seems from @Baden that it is up to an admin.

Moving on to Persian Poetry and Philosophy.

Ethics, aesthetics and philosophy are all intertwined in the poetry of Hafez and his words help us to rediscover long-lost truths

Within the pantheon of Persian poets...Reading the poetry of Hafez induces fragmented moments where one oscillates between body and soul; indeed, Wheeler Thackston writes that Hafez “sang a rare blend of human and mystic love so balanced, proportioned, and contrived with artful ease that it is impossible to separate the one from the other”. Within his poetic lines are levels and layers, each unfolding simultaneously upon the page and within the reader. Ethics, aesthetics and philosophy are all intertwined, and all possible meanings simmer simultaneously beneath the surface.

I present an analysis of a verse to demonstrate the multi-layered and rich understanding of Hafez, with the hope that it will also inspire introspection, wherever stage you may be at in life, as it has for Persian readers for generations upon generations.

In Shiraz I am famous for my love’s lively ways

My eyes have not been polluted with an evil gaze

— Guardian - Making sense of it - Philosophy

Should we be downloading stuff that we'd like to keep? — Amity

It never hurts.

It never hurts. — fdrake

:smile: Thanks. I know that it is a good idea to keep a back-up. However, I rarely do this. And it would 'hurt' in terms of time, energy and space. Especially if it's not necessary. Will TPF keep the stories safe? Apparently, in another lifetime and transition, the archive got lost.

Any response to previous question re future of the Literary Activity/Challenge would also be appreciated. It seems from @Baden that it is up to an admin. — Amity

So, @fdrake Will you, Jamal or a new someone be taking over from Baden and be the admin for Literary Activity 2024?

'As things stand' speaks to the uncertainty I feel as to the forum's future. Best wishes. :sparkle: — Amity

I don't think we're under any immediate threat... are we?

So, fdrake Will you, Jamal or a new someone be taking over from Baden and be the admin for Literary Activity 2024? — Amity

The admin doesn't have to do much, just a few permissions and so on. It is a little tricky because we decided to keep story comments off the front page, but the discussion should be pinned there.

I don't think we're under any immediate threat... are we? — Baden

No idea.

So, fdrake Will you, Jamal or a new someone be taking over from Baden and be the admin for Literary Activity 2024?
— Amity

The admin doesn't have to do much, just a few permissions and so on. It is a little tricky because we decided to keep story comments off the front page, but the discussion should be pinned there. — Baden

OK. Interesting. Still doesn't answer my question. Some things never change.
You lot either haven't worked it out yet or can't be arsed telling it like it is.
Slippery buggers, the lot of ya'. :roll:

I'm with you on this, but Jamal and fdrake are too busy fighting Macbethian wars of power to be interested in little people like us. :sad:

Jamal and fdrake are too busy fighting Macbethian wars of power — Baden

Therein lies madness and death. A tragic state of affairs.
Hubble, bubble...

Song of the Witches: “Double, double toil and trouble”

BY WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE
(from Macbeth)

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

Notes:
Macbeth: IV.i 10-19; 35-38 — Poetry Foundation - Song of the Witches

You better watch out.Vera, Amity and Javi are on the case!
You got power, we got magic. :naughty: :halo: :rage:
You do you. We do VOODOO. The pins are out :fire: :monkey: :party:

It seems you never surprised yourself with new revelations or ideas impacting you or changing ways of thinking? — Amity

I don't know if I could use the word surprise: for me, change in direction and opinion have been gradual processes, rather than revelations, though I have had the odd little eureka moment when disparate strands of information came together and something made sense.
I was, as mentioned, very lucky in my female relatives - mother, aunts and grandmothers who never made me feel insignificant or deficient. I was lucky to come to Canada when I was young enough to assimilate (that's down to a father who otherwise was not much of an asset), lucky in a good, fair public school system and some wonderful teachers, lucky in the second half of the 20th century. My cohort experience one of the best moments in western history - perhaps the best.

I didn't know you had a Blue Willow Collection. — Amity

I don't. I have a white elephant of a Herendi set. The story begins in England in 1819, soon after Turner and Minton introduced that pattern, with the hanging of the Cato Street Conspirators. One of his daughters inherits the tea service. It travels with her to the New World, and is passed down from mother do daughter.

Is your novel a series of linked short stories? — Amity

No, they're all single continuous narratives, but the last two are told from three different characters' point of view, set in three different locations. That was a new challenge.

I know that it is a good idea to keep a back-up. However, I rarely do this. And it would 'hurt' in terms of time, energy and space. — Amity

I copy everything - now, after I had a couple of good scoldings - including works in progress on a memory stick, so it doesn't clutter up my regular files (which I have enough trouble finding my around.) Techno-klutz, me, but lucky again in my choice of life-mate.

The pins are out — Amity

A call to arms from a comerade usually so mild-mannered and generous cannot but be heeded!

Moving on to Persian Poetry and Philosophy. — Amity

The analysis of that poem reminded of something by another middleasterner whose poetry I've turned to a lot.

And one of the elders of the city said, Speak to us of Good and Evil.
And he answered:
Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil.
For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?
Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts it drinks even of dead waters.

You are good when you are one with yourself.
Yet when you are not one with yourself you are not evil.
For a divided house is not a den of thieves; it is only a divided house.
And a ship without rudder may wander aimlessly among perilous isles yet sink not to the bottom.

You are good when you strive to give of yourself.
Yet you are not evil when you seek gain for yourself.
For when you strive for gain you are but a root that clings to the earth and sucks at her breast.
Surely the fruit cannot say to the root, "Be like me, ripe and full and ever giving of your abundance."
For the fruit giving is a need, as receiving is a need to the root.

You are good when you are fully awake in your speech,
Yet you are not evil when you sleep while your tongue staggers without purpose.
And even stumbling speech may strengthen a weak tongue.

You are good when you walk to your goal firmly and with bold steps.
Yet you are not evil when you go thither limping.
Even those who limp go not backward.
But you who are strong and swift, see that you do not limp before the lame, deeming it kindness.

You are good in countless ways, and you are not evil when you are not good,
You are only loitering and sluggard.
Pity that the stags cannot teach swiftness to the turtles.

In your longing for your giant self lies your goodness: and that longing is in all of you.
But in some of you that longing is a torrent rushing with might to the sea, carrying the secrets of the hillsides and the songs of the forest.
And in others it is a flat stream that loses itself in angles and bends and lingers before it reaches the shore.

But let not him who longs much say to him who longs little, "Wherefore are you slow and halting?"
For the truly good ask not the naked, "Where is your garment?" nor the houseless, "What has befallen your house?"

From The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran

The analysis of that poem reminded of something by another middleasterner whose poetry I've turned to a lot. — wonderer1

Thank you. What a special choice, requiring more than one read to fully appreciate. A beautiful and balanced way to look at Good and Evil.

I'd heard of The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran but didn't wander off in that direction. Also others like Rumi and Omar Khayyam, really only names to me.

The article's author, Ali Hammoud, says his aim isn't to convince anyone that his is a correct interpretation of Hafez:

In Shiraz I am famous for my love’s lively ways
My eyes have not been polluted with an evil gaze

... but to inspire people to delve into Persian literature.

Words possess a quasi-mystical power and, in the hands of the master Persian poets, can engender serious transformation: long-buried emotions are stirred, long-forgotten memories are retrieved and long-lost truths are found again. All that is left for us is to read them. — Guardian - Making sense of it - Philosophy

So, I read more about Gibran and The Prophet in a useful study guide.
https://www.coursehero.com/lit/The-Prophet/

It helped me a great deal to place it in context:
https://www.coursehero.com/lit/The-Prophet/context/

***
It seems everywhere I go, I trip over my beloved Goethe. I watched a TV series on Jung and Alchemy https://filmfreeway.com/jung1
and that as a result of the excellent Freudian 'Vienna Blood' (crime drama).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000bhqj/vienna-blood
Not to mention other posters talking of myths, surreal ideas and dreams @Jack Cummins for one. Winding paths, huh?!

Persian Literature

Described as one of the great literatures of humanity, including Goethe's assessment of it as one of the four main bodies of world literature. — Wiki - Persian literature

How could I forget the stories of Scheherazade!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights

@wonderer1 -
You've turned to Gibran a lot? I see there are more themes on e.g. Love,
Marriage and Pain. He speaks to the everyday but in a spiritual way. I have to slide over God aspects. And talk of prophets...

However, I now better appreciate poetry's place in religion, psychology, politics and, of course, philosophy. Oh, and music...and...

Poetry and Psychology

Words help poets “say the unsayable”:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/between-cultures/202303/saying-the-unsayable-the-psychology-of-poetry

Seven writers share, reveal and teach us about mental health through their poetry:
https://happiful.com/7-poems-that-teach-us-about-mental-health

***

The brain is wider than the sky.
From: https://interestingliterature.com/2019/05/10-of-the-best-poems-about-the-mind-and-thought/

5. Emily Dickinson, ‘The Brain is wider than the Sky’. (excerpt)

The Brain — is wider than the Sky —
For — put them side by side —
The one the other will contain
With ease — and You — beside —

The Brain is deeper than the sea —
For — hold them — Blue to Blue —
The one the other will absorb —
As Sponges — Buckets — do …

https://interestingliterature.com/2017/11/a-short-analysis-of-emily-dickinsons-the-brain-is-wider-than-the-sky/


8. Wilfred Owen, ‘Mental Cases’. (excerpt)

Who are these? Why sit they here in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls’ tongues wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, — but what slow panic,
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?

https://interestingliterature.com/2018/12/a-short-analysis-of-wilfred-owens-mental-cases/

Hope in Poetry

The words of others can help to lift us up.

How can we find hope amid uncertainty, conflict, or loss? When we feel we have lost hope, we may find inspiration in the words and deeds of others. In this selection of poems, hope takes many forms: an open road, an unturned page, a map to another world, an ark, an infant, a long-lost glove that returns to its owner. Using metaphors for hope seems appropriate, as the concept of hope is difficult to describe. It is deeper than simple optimism, and more mysterious, delicate, and elusive...

From:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/collections/142028/poems-of-hope-and-resilience

The first poem I remember and took to heart was Emily Dickinson's light and beautiful 'Hope is the thing with feathers'. Uplifting.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42889/hope-is-the-thing-with-feathers-314

This contrasts with the 'hope' in Stephen Mitchell's translation of Verse 13 of the Tao Te Ching.

13
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things — Tao Te Ching - Terebess

There are many translations. Most I found did not use the word 'hope'.
For example: Derek Lin's with commentary.

13

Favor and disgrace make one fearful
The greatest misfortune is the self
What does "favor and disgrace make one fearful" mean?
Favor is high, disgrace is low
Having it makes one fearful
Losing it makes one fearful
This is "favor and disgrace make one fearful"
What does "the greatest misfortune is the self" mean?
The reason I have great misfortune
Is that I have the self
If I have no self
What misfortune do I have?
So one who values the self as the world
Can be given the world
One who loves the self as the world
Can be entrusted with the world

Both favor and disgrace make us fearful and apprehensive.
The greatest source of adversity and trouble is the ego - the sense of self-importance.
What do we mean when we say that both favor and disgrace make us fearful? Favor is exalted, while disgrace is lowly and despised. We are afraid of getting humiliation. At the same time, we are also afraid of losing recognition. This is why we say both favor and disgrace make us fearful.
What do we mean when we say that the greatest source of trouble is our ego? The reason I've got problems is that my ego gets in the way. If I didn't have this sense of self-importance, what trouble could I possibly have?
Therefore, the humble sage who values the world as much as the self, is the one that can do the world justice. The selfless sage who loves the world as much as the self, is the one that we can trust with great responsibilities.
— Terebess - Tao Te Ching - Derek Lin

Part of A CHILD'S GARDEN OF POETRY where children discuss the meaning and mystery of poetry and recite some of their favorites by heart:

A video of Poem by Emily Dickinson. Read by Claire Danes and signed by Rachel, age 9.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/video/77372/hope-is-the-thing-with-feathers

I copy everything - now, after I had a couple of good scoldings - including works in progress on a memory stick, so it doesn't clutter up my regular files (which I have enough trouble finding my around.) Techno-klutz, me, but lucky again in my choice of life-mate. — Vera Mont

You have been extremely fortunate in life and open to learning! It seems I never do. My laptop is now hospitalized. Awaiting assessment and prognosis...

I have a white elephant of a Herendi set. The story begins in England in 1819, soon after Turner and Minton introduced that pattern, with the hanging of the Cato Street Conspirators. One of his daughters inherits the tea service. It travels with her to the New World, and is passed down from mother do daughter.
Is your novel a series of linked short stories?
— Amity
No, they're all single continuous narratives, but the last two are told from three different characters' point of view, set in three different locations. That was a new challenge. — Vera Mont

How fascinating. I'd love to hear more of how you achieved this. Perhaps better to read it first?

The pins are out
— Amity
A call to arms from a comerade usually so mild-mannered and generous cannot but be heeded! — Vera Mont

:smile:
I have not always been so gentle and mild. And my generosity only extends so far. Have you read the Tao Te Ching? There's a rather lengthy 34 page discussion of it. I'm in there somewhere...battling my corner!
I learned from that when to 'let it be'...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10427/my-favorite-verses-in-the-tao-te-ching/p1

I think I left about a third of the way through. Probably at Verse 13 ?
I just checked out the last few posts. Way to go @javi2541997 :flower:

The Tao Te Ching thread gives me a lot of nostalgia! More than two years have already passed!? Wow, time flies by, Amity.

I am ready to go there, and share thoughts and ideas with you. It will be a pleasure.  :up:

I am ready to go there, and share thoughts and ideas with you. It will be a pleasure.  :up: — javi2541997

Hah, yeah! Not gonna happen. Not in that particular thread, anyway. I'm as nostalgic for that as my cookery class exam in high school. :fear: :monkey:

Time flies indeed. Soon be deid! :death: :flower:

Re: nostalgia. Actually, I have to admit, it did give me a pang when I saw your interaction with @Agent Smith. Now gone...
And when I read some of the beginning pages, yeah, there were some good moments of sharing.
Unfortunately, I left with an overall distaste for the Tao Te Ching...

I am ready to go there, and share thoughts and ideas with you. It will be a pleasure.  :up: — javi2541997

Sorry to have been so dismissive. It's a pleasure to share thoughts with you :up:

Words help poets “say the unsayable”:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/between-cultures/202303/saying-the-unsayable-the-psychology-of-poetry — Amity

Nice find!

The sentence, "Poetry can stir the memory of words that reside in our bodies in different ways." took me back to this, which I have been thinking about off and on:

It is so interesting and mysterious, the effect that poetic elements seem to have on us.
— wonderer1

I guess some might ask the question: "what are 'poetic elements?'' How do they show in expression? — Amity

By poetic elements, I had in mind things like rhyme, rhythm, alliteration, assonance, etc. My speculation is that whether we consciously recognize such poetic elements, our subconscious is excited by patterns in detecting such elements, and that can literally result in an altered state of mind in which we can see things from a different perspective.

By poetic elements, I had in mind things like rhyme, rhythm, alliteration, assonance, etc — wonderer1

Yes. There is also the use of symbolism. Symbols can help or hinder readers understanding. If there is a sensory impression or shared association, it can take the mind to deeper places. Perhaps to enrich or trouble. Or question...world views or values. If open and curious, the reader's imagination can be stimulated.

However, delving through the layers is not always desired. And a simple reading will suffice. But then what is missing? Appreciation of the artistic; intriguing words can unearth deeper meanings and a hidden world beauty.

From: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/education/glossary/symbol

Poets such as William Blake and W.B. Yeats often use symbols when they believe in—or seek—a transcendental (religious or spiritual) reality.

Of course, Jung is known for his symbolism; Goethe and other poets have been inspired by him. And we could say there is a kind of alchemy afoot. Floating into a different awareness. Or perhaps I'm being too fanciful.

There are many grounded, funny poems which resonate without any such thing going on. It's a simple case of using ordinary language to engage with contemporary concerns. No great need for interpretation.

I only just realised that that this poem was a 2-parter:

Differences of Opinion by Wendy Cope

Two-part poem first published Poetry Magazine in 2006.

1.

HE TELLS HER

He tells her that the earth is flat —
He knows the facts, and that is that.
In altercations fierce and long
She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.
She cannot win. He stands his ground.

The planet goes on being round.

2.

YOUR MOTHER KNOWS

Your mother knows the earth’s a plane
And, challenged, sheds a martyr’s tear.
God give her strength to bear this pain –
A child who says the world’s a sphere!

Challenged, she sheds a martyr’s tear.
It’s bad to make your mother cry
By telling her the world’s a sphere.
It’s very bad to tell a lie.

It’s bad to make your mother cry.
It’s bad to think your mother odd.
It’s very bad to tell a lie.
All this has been ordained by God.

It’s bad to think your mother odd.
The world is round.  That’s also true.
All this has been ordained by God.
It’s hard to see what you can do.

The world is round.  That must be true.
She’s praying, hoping you will change.
It’s hard to see what you can do.
Already people find you strange.

She’s praying, hoping you will change.
You’re difficult.  You don’t fit in.
Already people find you strange.
You know your anger is a sin.

You’re difficult.  You don’t fit in.
God give her strength to bear this pain.
You know your anger is a sin.
Your mother knows the earth’s a plane.

My speculation is that whether we consciously recognize such poetic elements, our subconscious is excited by patterns in detecting such elements, and that can literally result in an altered state of mind in which we can see things from a different perspective. — wonderer1

Yes. Perhaps so. We can view the natural world as a poetic element. An aesthetic experience stimulating the senses, consciously and subconsciously.
Taking a walk on the wild side...the world as poetry. Poetry in the world and beyond. :chin:

Your mother knows the earth’s a plane.

:lol:

I can relate to that one. A couple of days ago my mom told me she would be praying for me. If she knew about this guy wonderer on the internet, she would probably consider him the antichrist. :wink:

Differences of Opinion

I find it interesting that more attention is given to the first part. Indeed, some only receive this as a short poem. The second part disregarded. Why?
1. He tells her
2. Your mother knows

The change in perspective and effect on/of the writer can be seen in the time, length and weight given to each. The different form, style and tone.

The conclusion in 1. The planet goes on being round.

For me, seems to be a resignation. You can't argue with someone who has a dogmatic, delusional belief. Tired of trying, you 'let it be'.
'She cannot win' - he stands on his fact, flat ground. Enough said. Cut short.
So is she then silenced? What happens next? This non-negotiation or lack of regard is bound to have consequences. Her world turns...

2. Longer and more challenging reflecting a greater degree of angst, I think.
This is not a gender difference of opinion but generational. And with the closest of blood relatives. The mother/daughter bond usually strong is being severely tested.

The religious mother prays, 'hoping' for the daughter to change. But it seems the daughter has lost her faith and can't return to being Mummy's good little girl.
Both are experiencing loss and grief.

The personal and social challenges of changing belief. This is an instance where the fight is for your life. You can't 'let it be' and yet you must, if you still love and want to be close to your Mum. The conflict and tension evident. The words go round your head:

You’re difficult.  You don’t fit in.
You know your anger is a sin.

It is this fight that continues in philosophy and politics.
We see this daily. The consequences of powerful, religious males who dominate the world. War. The cowards who would hide behind or use a God. Who now no longer care about anyone but themselves. Hospitals, homes, women and children killed, wounded or displaced. The environment destroyed.
You will be exterminated. Some people pray...

A couple of days ago my mom told me she would be praying for me. If she knew about this guy wonderer on the internet, she would probably consider him the antichrist. :wink: — wonderer1

Yes. It is relatable. We often show different sides of our self to keep peace and love. There can be a need to 'let it be'. Not to challenge if it will cause deep pain and a family breakdown. It won't change anyone's deeply held faith.

It is a different kettle of fish when the person without faith is spurned and cast out. That must be traumatic...

The wars of world-wide, hate-filled preachers of 'Us v Them' is tragic.
There will always be 'Differences of Opinion'.
It is how we negotiate them that matters. How does philosophy help?

That's an interesting poem. It presents two ways in which people who seek and apprehend a truth are browbeaten and silenced 1. through authority and 2. through social/emotional pressure.

When I was about six, I greatly admired an uncle who could whistle any tune he liked. It was difficult to figure out, but I eventually taught myself the rudiments - got much better, once my permanent teeth came in. My father told me to stop that noise! My grandmother told me that when she hears a girl whistle, the Virgin Mary cries. I'd seen pictures of that soppy woman with her eyeballs rolled up and heart stuck out in front of her tunic, and I thought, "Let 'her cry!" But I sure didn't dare whistle when my father was home.

If Part 2 is disregarded, it's partly because the emotional one is a less compelling reason to desist: the one who has a truth reflect back on the aggrieved person responsibility for their own grievance. Against authority, you have no such recourse.
And partly on aesthetic grounds. The second poem is a little too long and repetitious to make the same impact. It reflect the way that social/emotional pressure may be brought to bear, over time, on a child, but how easily it may be resisted by an independent adult.

Here's one I recall tearing me up in Gr 10 - and each I've come across it since:

There is sorrow enough in the natural way
From men and women to fill our day;
And when we are certain of sorrow in store,
Why do we always arrange for more?
Brothers and Sisters, I bid you beware
Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.

Buy a pup and your money will buy
Love unflinching that cannot lie--
Perfect passion and worship fed
By a kick in the ribs or a pat on the head.
Nevertheless it is hardly fair
To risk your heart for a dog to tear.

When the fourteen years which Nature permits
Are closing in asthma, or tumour, or fits,
And the vet's unspoken prescription runs
To lethal chambers or loaded guns,
Then you will find--it's your own affair--
But...you've given your heart for a dog to tear.

When the body that lived at your single will,
With its whimper of welcome, is stilled (how still!);
When the spirit that answered your every mood
Is gone--wherever it goes--for good,
You will discover how much you care,
And will give your heart for the dog to tear.

We've sorrow enough in the natural way,
When it comes to burying Christian clay.
Our loves are not given, but only lent,
At compound interest of cent per cent.
Though it is not always the case, I believe,
That the longer we've kept 'em, the more do we grieve:
For, when debts are payable, right or wrong,
A short-time loan is as bad as a long--
So why in Heaven (before we are there)
Should we give our hearts to a dog to tear?

Rudyard Kipling - The Power of the Dog

Thanks. You make good points as to why Part 2 is disregarded by some who find it too long and less sharp.

However, I find it troubling that it is not even included in the Poetry Foundation website. Only the part concerning the Man.

This not only shows disrespect to the female writer but denies people potential access to the internal subjective experience of being inside someone's head. Almost like a stream of consciousness. The repetitions necessary for effect. The troubling voices going round and round.

Part 1 seems more objective. Showing a distant, rational aspect. This is how it is between them. Females can relate to that. The apparent superiority of males.
The paradoxical call on logic to support his (emotional) faith.
The religious aspect is contemporary, political and hits home.

She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.

Can't you just see/hear it ? The male narcissistic bully pushing it to the limits and then dismissing her opinion/arguments as emotional!
The cold rationality of 'fact' v the heat of passion, supported by knowledge.
The right and the wrong. Sometimes, it's about more than opinion.