Yes, I can see how this poem could bring tears to the eyes of a pet lover.
They are precious companions who bring joy, love and comfort in so many ways.

When my elderly Aunt tried to describe how depressed she felt after the loss of her dog ( there were other major factors ) - the young, male doctor couldn't understand or empathize. "But it's only a dog!"
How the heart can be broken...but the pain is part of the pleasure.
We know it will come. And dogs are replaced. Each having their own character, personality and love.

Coping with the loss of a mother and then a wife:
Anthony Hopkins as Jack, - C.S. Lewis, from Shadowlands:

Why love, if losing hurts so much? I have no answers anymore: only the life I have lived. Twice in that life I've been given the choice: as a boy and as a man. The boy chose safety, the man chooses suffering. The pain now is part of the happiness then. That's the deal. — Shadowlands 1993

However, I find it troubling that it is not even included in the Poetry Foundation website. Only the part concerning the Man. — Amity

That's just wrong! If you're going to print a poem, print the whole thing - else, desist.

And often asks her not to yell

That's the gist of it for me, the power trip. If he 'raises his voice from time to time', it's because she's being obtuse and exasperating; if she does, she's strident or hysterical. I know this story well enough.
I do know the other one, too: the drip, drip, drip of guilt, of shaming, of turning your best impulses on you as weapons.
Yes, it is excellent as two halves of a whole.

the young, male doctor couldn't understand or empathize. "But it's only a dog!" — Amity

A Dog for Jesus
(Where dogs go when they die)

I wish someone had given Jesus a dog.
As loyal and loving as mine.
To sleep by His manger and gaze in His eyes
And adore Him for being divine.

As our Lord grew to manhood His faithful dog,
Would have followed Him all through the day.
While He preached to the crowds and made the sick well
And knelt in the garden to pray.
It is sad to remember that Christ went away.
To face death alone and apart.

With no tender dog following close behind,
To comfort its Master’s Heart.
And when Jesus rose on that Easter morn,
How happy He would have been,
As His dog kissed His hand and barked it’s delight,
For The One who died for all men.

Well, the Lord has a dog now, I just sent Him mine,
The old pal so dear to me.
And I smile through my tears on this first day alone,
Knowing they’re in eternity.
Day after day, the whole day through,
Wherever my road inclined,
Four feet said, “Wait, I’m coming with you!”
And trotted along behind.

by: Rudyard Kipling

The same wish goes to that doctor.

Can't you just see/hear it ? The male narcissistic bully pushing it to the limits and then dismissing her opinion/arguments as emotional! — Amity

I've been leaning towards interpreting both parts as conversations between a narcissistic parent and a child. The first part a grandiose narcissist father and his daughter. The second part a covert/vulnerable narcissist mother and her son.

Of course I might be projecting a sort of 'symmetry' that doesn't belong.

Yes, it is excellent as two halves of a whole. — Vera Mont

Glad to see that you see it that way as well.

That's just wrong! If you're going to print a poem, print the whole thing - else, desist. — Vera Mont

Exactly.

"And often asks her not to yell"
That's the gist of it for me, the power trip. If he 'raises his voice from time to time', it's because she's being obtuse and exasperating; if she does, she's strident or hysterical. I know this story well enough. — Vera Mont

Yes. It's all about power and control. You are not alone in knowing this story.

I do know the other one, too: the drip, drip, drip of guilt, of shaming, of turning your best impulses on you as weapons. — Vera Mont

Sorry to hear that. I know guilt as being inbuilt. Stemming from religion.
Also, a necessary part of a moral, legal system. But it's not healthy when it adversely affects our mental health.
Or worse, being found guilty, sent to prison as an innocent. Awaiting death for decades and then being killed unjustly. Dear God!

Yes, it is excellent as two halves of a whole. — Vera Mont

Yes. The more I look, the more I see...

The first part a grandiose narcissist father and his daughter. The second part a covert/vulnerable narcissist mother and her son. — wonderer1

Hmm. Interesting point of view.
For me, Part 1 concerned a domineering husband confronted by his wife finding a new way, after a loss of faith. A better way to live.
The second, a loving mother showing religious concern for her daughter's soul. And losing control of the situation.

Both have conflict and tension. The wife/daughter being torn every which way.

I do know the other one, too: the drip, drip, drip of guilt, of shaming, of turning your best impulses on you as weapons. — Vera Mont

Sorry to hear that. — Amity

Oh, not directly. My father was a bully, nothing we could do about that. But my mother equipped me with some resistance to the guilt and shame thing. She made fun of it, so my brother and I learned to make fun of it. But I did subsequently witness how it happens to others. Usually through religion, which encases the very young child in a waterproof shell: he's helpless for fifteen years or more. The even more insidious form is smothering 'love' - sustained and unrelenting emotional blackmail.

Oh, not directly. My father was a bully, nothing we could do about that. — Vera Mont

Still, very unfortunate. Your mother did well in the circumstances.

She made fun of it, so my brother and I learned to make fun of it. — Vera Mont

That seems to be the way to manage bullies. See current American politics. Not taking Trump seriously and making fun of him. The downside is that it can infuriate and make matters worse. The situation is serious.

But I did subsequently witness how it happens to others — Vera Mont

A few stories to be told there. Most are never shared. The voices unheard.

The even more insidious form is smothering 'love' - sustained and unrelenting emotional blackmail. — Vera Mont

'Love' in its most hateful, abusive form.

The second, a loving mother showing religious concern for her daughter's soul. And losing control of the situation. — Amity

Ah, I see now that I read the second part as being between a mother and son, simply because it was easy for me to relate to it that way even though, on rereading' I couldn't find anything that makes clear the sex of the child.

I read the second part as being between a mother and son, simply because it was easy for me to relate to it that way even though, on rereading' I couldn't find anything that makes clear the sex of the child. — wonderer1

I think that the reader always brings their self to an interpretation. How else could it be? And I thought too that the poem could be autobiographical. The writer being female. But I don't know...probably not.

It's an all too easy assumption to make! Maybe just biographical. Imagination creating parts of a whole.

Another lovely poem. It reminded me of Greyfriars Bobby.
https://edinburgh.org/blog/the-tale-of-greyfriars-bobby/

I couldn't find anything that makes clear the sex of the child. — wonderer1

Strangely enough, the confusion reminded me of @Tobias captivating story. The hairpin.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13745/the-hairpin-by-tobias/p1

And it made me wonder as to the Mum. She might have been like her daughter but unlike her she was totally brainwashed and not in a position to leave her husband...or father?
They may well have been the 'He' in Part 1...
Overthinking? :chin:

I thought it was the same young woman in both - possibly with father and mother. In a religious community, obviously. If the father had been a bully, she would not have argued with him while she was dependent - you do not talk back! But she might try to assert herself, once she was out of the house. That would also give us a better perspective on why she'd give in to the mother - who had shared in her oppression over the years, and is still under the yoke, to which she has capitulated, while the daughter escaped and carried a burden of guilt for her desertion.

Yes, i think we're probably reading too much into it, bringing too much of our own experience to it. But, what the hay, isn't that what poetry is for?

Strangely enough, the confusion reminded me of Tobias captivating story.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13745/the-hairpin-by-tobias/p1 — Amity

I loved that.

And it made me wonder as to the Mum. She might have been like her daughter but she was brainwashed and wasn't in a position to leave her husband.
Who may well have been the man in Part 1...
Overthinking :chin: — Amity

Overthinking maybe, but interesting to consider.

In the case of my mom, there was fear related to bipolar disorder in her family, and she has told me that she is afraid she would go crazy without her religious beliefs. That's only one among many factors, but I understand it really is a deep seated fear for her, and knowing that in particular, I'm not much inclined to challenge her views.

Yes, i think we're probably reading too much into it, bringing too much of our own experience to it. But, what the hay, isn't that what poetry is for? — Vera Mont

Yes. That's part of the fun of poetry. The writer and readers care and share. In all kinds of ways. Amazing to see where a single 2-part poem can lead... Really enjoyed your interpretation. It reminds me of our times in TPFs Literary Challenge. The Short Story Stimulating the brain cells...

I loved that. — wonderer1

Yes! There are some real gems hidden away...still more to come. Hopefully...

I understand it really is a deep seated fear for her, and knowing that in particular, I'm not much inclined to challenge her views. — wonderer1

It takes a certain kind of courage to share personal stories. And to show ways of coping and dealing with 'differences of opinion' in family and other situations.
Both you and @Vera Mont have been inspirational. Thank you :sparkle: :flower:

That's only one among many factors, but I understand it really is a deep seated fear for her, and knowing that in particular, I'm not much inclined to challenge her views. — wonderer1

We were the same with my sister-in-law. She had MS and clung to her faith till the very end. We could see that it was a comfort to her and were careful never to challenge it. Even took her to church a couple of times when she was visiting, even though... Well, we took her shopping and brought her KFC buckets, too: whatever made her life a little brighter.

Well, we took her shopping and brought her KFC buckets, too: whatever made her life a little brighter. — Vera Mont

That is Love. :heart:
Making 'life a little brighter' is one of the best things anyone can do for themselves or others.
And I agree it is important to know when to hold one's tongue. First, do no harm.

Not sure whether this will brighten, enlighten or even be read but here goes nothing:

Turning my attention to: Iris Murdoch and Plato and 'Good for Nothing'.

First of all, my laptop has recovered. All hail Technology and wonderful experts who repair and restore.
It means that I'm now scouring its contents with the aim of saving the worthy to a memory stick. Or at least, knowing where to find 'stuff'.

Looking through old emails, I found a link to an article. It's a fascinating review of Iris Murdoch's 'Work for the Spirit' by Elizabeth Dipple.[ emphasis added]

With 3339 words, it starts:

Philosophy, religion, science,’ wrote D.H. Lawrence, ‘they are all of them busy nailing things down ... But the novel, no ... If you try to nail anything down, in the novel, it either kills the novel, or the novel gets up and walks away with the nail!’

Hence Lawrence’s conclusion that only the novel can now do for us what philosophy once aspired to do:
Plato’s Dialogues were queer little novels. It seems to me that it was the greatest pity in the world when philosophy and fiction got split. They used to be one, right from the days of myth. Then they parted, like a nagging married couple, with Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas and that beastly Kant. So the novel went sloppy and philosophy went abstract-dry. The two should come together again – in the novel.

Why in the novel? ‘You may know a truth but if it’s at all complicated you have to be an artist not to utter it as a lie,’ says one of Iris Murdoch’s characters in An Accidental Man who is explaining why he has abandoned philosophy. It is always dangerous to impute a character’s views to an author: but in Iris Murdoch’s case there is a special hazard. — LRB - Alasdair MacIntyre - Good for nothing

I've had some TPF interactions re Murdoch and Plato with e.g. @180 Proof and @Fooloso4.
I've still to tackle a Murdoch recommendation by 180 - 'Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals'. It's real heavy! Any advice as to a 'way in' gratefully received. The highlights?

With Fooloso4, what sticks in my mind is my initial condemnation of Plato - blaming him for the negativity towards poets and creativity in 'The Republic'. And how this has trickled down through the ages. We can question how we separate 'Philosophy' and its categories from the creative life. Stories to the left of us...

[...] Yet Plato himself would have expelled the dramatic poets from the republic and understood the mimesis of art as a tempting source of illusion. A Neoplatonic novelist seems to be an embodied contradiction.

Iris Murdoch has confronted this problem in The Fire and the Sun: Why Plato Banished the Artists, where she draws our attention to Plato’s ambivalence about the arts. ‘He kept emphasising the imageless remoteness of the Good, yet kept returning in his exposition to the more elaborate uses of art.’ And she might well have drawn our attention to the fact that in the Republic, where Plato’s attack on all sensible representation is most vehement, the exposition of the diagram of the line, in terms of which the theory of forms is explained, includes the remark that any type of apprehension which has to be mediated by a diagram cannot be true knowledge of the forms. But if we and Glaucon and Adeimantus have had to learn about the forms by means of the diagram of the line, then sensible representation has had to play its part in the mind’s ascent towards the Form of the Good, and perhaps a part that cannot ever quite be left behind. And where then does the condemnation of the artist stand, deriving as it does in Book X precisely from the fact that mimesis is a form of sensible representation? It is very much to the point that Plato’s attack on the dramatic poets is voiced in a work which is itself an outstanding piece of dramatic art. — LRB - Alasdair MacIntyre review

I'm not sure if MacIntyre gives us a correct interpretation. Any thoughts?

[...] Iris Murdoch seems to be at one with Plato, although she extends his suspicion of art into a suspicion of philosophy. It too can screen us from the Form of the Good, it too can be a form of self-indulgence. And just as Plato attacked dramatic art in a play, so Iris Murdoch has voiced her indictments of philosophy in philosophical essays as well as in novels. [...]

[Her] storytelling voice is what gives the novels their pace and their comic energy, and with these, the enjoyment that comes from the reader’s, and the characters’, being carried along so swiftly. But where are the characters being carried to? At what does the directedness of those who aim at the good point? Where does the distractedness of those who fail to aim at the good prevent them from moving to? Aristotle long ago criticised the Platonic conception of the Form of the Good for being practically empty, for affording us no guidance. Lacking any specific content, it is in fact a nothing, the ghost of a something.

It is characteristic of Iris Murdoch’s later novels that all goodness being referred to the Form of the Good seems to entail that there is no such thing as a good way of life or a good form of human community. Good is an object only of individual aspiration. Social circumstances are not themselves, except accidentally, part of the matter of morality, which is a purely individual enterprise and one that, just because what is good is good ‘for nothing’, leads nowhere. This is why her novels have no genuine endings.

I don't intend this to become an in-depth discussion concerning Murdoch, Plato and the Good but would appreciate thoughts/opinions as to the above.

We can read a novel and its characters and sometimes assume the author's views are one and the same. Sometimes, it is obviously autobiographical as in e.g. Philip Roth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Roth

How true is it that: 'the novel can now do for us what philosophy once aspired to'. :chin:

Poetry in Music?

Yes I'm stuck in the middle with you,
And I'm wondering what it is I should do,
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face,
Losing control, yeah, I'm all over the place,
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you

Stealers Wheel ~ Stuck In The Middle With You [LYRICS]

Poetry and Music

It's easy to see the connection between poetry and song lyrics. But can that be translated to sound, notes and chords? I suggested earlier that poetry is in the world of nature. Where else do we find the magical melodies; the murmuration and susurration...?

Inspired by @unenlightened's posting of the instrumental version of La Mer:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/935055

La Mer. The poetry of its lyrics, in French and English. Embedded video of Trenet singing his song. And how it inspired other creative works:

Bergère d’azur infinie
Artist and commenter on this song Sophie Howard (@sophiemmh) was inspired by Trenet’s la Mer to create the sculpture pictured here, which she has called “The Infinite Shepherdess.” About it she says: “The body of the shepherdess is made from old buildings. The horse’s hooves touch the waves which rock boats on the shore. A bird’s head forms the eye of the horse. The clouds are like curls from the back of a sheep. Everything is wind-whipped.” It will be exhibited in London at the Mall Galleries in June 2024. — La Mer by Charles Trenet - French song translations

Poetry in Music? — Amity

Roxy Music - More Than This. :sparkle:

How true is it that: 'the novel can now do for us what philosophy once aspired to'. — Amity

While I fancied that that understood where some philosophers were coming from, and what they were having a go at, I never figured out whether Philosophy as a whole intended or aspired. As a 'discipline', I think it's purely academic, because it takes a pedagogue's orderly mind to make a system of it; in the wild, it's quite undisciplined. Does it serve a social function? Some branches do; some practitioners do so deliberately and self-consciously, while some, I'm a little afraid to say aloud in this environment, seem to me no more than cloud-gazing and verbal calisthenics.

Novels, on the other hand... I'd rather say fiction, because it ought to include drama, has many origins and purposes and social functions. Some of it, obviously, is also cloud-gazing and verbal calisthenics, some is philosophical, A fair amount is mythologizing of a people's self image; a good deal of it is social commentary (which may have been Plato's objection to the dramatic poets of his time; they were successful rivals for what he regarded as his territory... or maybe not; I didn't know him well enough to judge) and even more is just crowd-fodder, created to entertain or frighten or titillate briefly and then fade away. The best fiction combines philosophy and social commentary, edification and intellectual stimulation in an entertaining form. (At least, that's what some of us aspire to.)

It's easy to see the connection between poetry and song lyrics. But can that be translated to sound, notes and chords? — Amity

Beethoven took a pretty good stab at it. Vivaldi didn't suck, either.

Stealers Wheel ~ Stuck In The Middle With You — Amity

I can't see or hear that in any context except with the image of Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin (Are they not the most amazing women??) in that comedy series - not always in the best taste.
I like many song lyrics - perhaps my favourites are by Simon and Garfunkel, because they supplied the score for my youthful yearnings and heartbreaks. The first record I ever owned was a single Sounds of Silence, a gift from a friend who also felt very much on the fringes of high-school culture. A bright, sad Welsh boy, a poet.

While I fancied that that understood where some philosophers were coming from, and what they were having a go at, I never figured out whether Philosophy as a whole intended or aspired. As a 'discipline', I think it's purely academic, because it takes a pedagogue's orderly mind to make a system of it; in the wild, it's quite undisciplined. Does it serve a social function? Some branches do; some practitioners do so deliberately and self-consciously, while some, I'm a little afraid to say aloud in this environment, seem to me no more than cloud-gazing and verbal calisthenics — Vera Mont

Well. Where to start. I don't think it unusual for people to wonder as to the benefits of Philosophy as an academic discipline. Been discussed many times. The aspirations and aims of any course are usually well-defined. It can be seen an objective, civilised system in comparison to the 'wildness' of internet forums. They are both systems within which can be found imagination and thought-provoking claims.
As always, in Education, so much can depend on individual profs, tutors and the participating students. They have various demands placed on them but nevertheless keep the spirit of questioning and exploration alive.

As to Philosophy serving a 'social function'...what is that exactly? Whose philosophy?

I've had enough of talk. I should stop there. I am sick to my stomach at the inability to stop or even lessen the effects of male criminals and bullies of the world. Crimes against humanity going unpunished.
Wars started by male egos in a never-ending, crazy downward spiral. Who wins?

The Republican supporters of MAGA can go to the Hell they believe in. Within a system that is rotten to the core.

Only one example. The so-called Justice system - Capital punishment.
Don't read this, if you want to stay calm.
From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/29/america-executions-death-penalty

Six days of horror: America’s thirst for executions returns with a vengeance
Five executions, five states: a glut of judicial killing not seen in 20 years took place last week – and there was nothing random about it.

“I don’t think anything represents our long history of racial injustice more dramatically than the tolerance of racial bias in the administration of the death penalty,” Stevenson said. “For a Black defendant to be tried by a nearly all-white jury in a county with a substantial Black population, and have the courts look the other way, that’s the shadow, the pollution, that the history of lynching and segregation and punitive enslavement has created.” [...]

On Thursday, Miller, 59, was put to death by Alabama for the 1999 shootings of three of his co-workers. The state used nitrogen gas effectively to suffocate him – an experimental killing technique that has only been deployed once before in US history, with the execution in January of Kenneth Smith, also by Alabama.

An eyewitness for the Associated Press described Miller’s death by nitrogen in hauntingly similar terms to Smith’s: “He shook and trembled on the gurney for about two minutes with his body at times pulling against the restraints. That was followed by about six minutes of periodic gulping.”...

The article continues with more disturbing details of the previous attempt to kill Miller in September 2022. Alabama.

Politics. Big Boy Bullies and their MAGA philosophy or ideology. America gets worse with Trump.

The federal courts, which Trump transformed by appointing more than 200 judges during his presidency, have also changed their tune. Where they once acted as a failsafe against unreliable convictions, they now largely step aside.

That is especially true of the US supreme court, with its new ultra-right supermajority secured by Trump’s three appointed justices, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett.

“There’s been a radical shift in the legal culture as it relates to the death penalty in the past six years,” said Bryan Stevenson, founder of the Equal Justice Initiative...

Who is Stevenson? Did he read Plato? Look up wiki. His memoir 'Just Mercy'.

I've had some TPF interactions re Murdoch and Plato with e.g. 180 Proof and @Fooloso4.
I've still to tackle a Murdoch recommendation by 180 - 'Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals'. It's real heavy! Any advice as to a 'way in' gratefully received. The highlights?

With Fooloso4, what sticks in my mind is my initial condemnation of Plato - blaming him for the negativity towards poets and creativity in 'The Republic'. And how this has trickled down through the ages. We can question how we separate 'Philosophy' and its categories from the creative life. Stories to the left of us... — Amity

@180 Proof and @Fooloso4 - Never mind. It all seems quite pitiful, now.

Thanks to all who have participated. Stay well :sparkle:

The best fiction combines philosophy and social commentary, edification and intellectual stimulation in an entertaining form. (At least, that's what some of us aspire to.) — Vera Mont

Thank you. Take care :flower:

I don't think it unusual for people to wonder as to the benefits of Philosophy as an academic discipline. — Amity

I don't question the value or benefits of the academic application. In fact, that's what I was trying to say: in the educational setting, philosophy becomes systematic and disciplined and that the orderly academic mindset renders it useful.
I don't think Philosophy is a discipline in any other context. Or that it was ever unified in its aspirations or significance until academics packaged it. In any other setting, it's just a lot of disparate thinkers, thinking out loud.

As to Philosophy serving a 'social function'...what is that exactly? Whose philosophy? — Amity

Each disparate opinion is published in a given time and place. It may sway public opinion in that society, or make a deep impression on someone who then becomes a leader. It may and even influence legal and legislative decisions in the near future, and in related cultures. It may influence contemporary thinkers and future ones. That's hit-and-miss; some philosophies sink without a trace; some valid observations are denied or vilified.
As an academic discipline, philosophy is far more powerful. It familiarizes intelligent young people with different ways of thinking, of regarding the world and their fellow humans. Each student is likely to be more heavily influenced by one or another of the philosophers they study, according their own leanings, but whichever it is will have articulated a world view - and thus illustrated for the student how it's done.
Of course there is no guarantee that every student will emulate the thought process of their role model, rather than rely on quotes from him to carry their arguments, but at least every student who takes a philosophy course is given the opportunity to think more deeply and widely. Whatever they do in the world afterward is bound to have an effect on their society.

BTW - I believe women who have either pets or children or both should rule the world for a while. Nobody else eligible to run for any administrative or head of government department position for the next 20 years.
Then we can review.
I love and respect many men, but it's time for them to stand down and stand back.

Thanks for clarification and providing more food for thought. Who best to rule the world?
Why Vera, of course :wink:

I love and respect many men, but it's time for them to stand down and stand back. — Vera Mont

Oh dear. An unfortunate reminder of Trump's Proud Boy order of 'stand back and stand by'. Apparently to allow law enforcement do their work. Yeah, right! He is a vicious piece of work who knows fine well how to stir the shit to his advantage. Proud Boys don't stand back. They are primed for more.

I am becoming increasingly concerned with American politics. It sickens me.

Time, for me, to give it a rest. My BP is soaring.

Looking for light listening...books, music...or to watch non-violent films.
But not too slushy...Christmas Romance :vomit:

Oh dear. An unfortunate reminder of Trump's Proud Boy order of 'stand back and stand by' — Amity

It was meant as a positive echo to a negative order. Down tools and get out of the way for a while.

I am becoming increasingly concerned with American politics. It sickens me. — Amity

Not theirs alone, either! Don't look east or southward!
Yes. We keep watching You Tube, as one would a million-car collision in slow motion, hardly able to believe what's become of the nation that gave us All in the Family. This election is close? As Alan Shore used to say in his closing arguments: How can this be? How can this be!?
My current theory is solar flares. They're driving the world's population mad. It's incremental, because organisms have different levels of susceptibility. There will still be a few (unfortunate) relatively sane humans when the cats begin to succumb. By then, all the apes, elephants and dolphins and dogs will be at one another's throats.