[Richard] Taylor's claim [in "Fatalism," following Aristotle] was never really that fatalism was actually "true," only that it was forced upon us by a proof from certain basic logical and semantic principles. — Fate, Time and Language, 212
Yes, just so. Again, Aristotelian logic takes on metaphysical presumptions not found in PWS - essentialism, that misunderstanding of "a thing is the same as itself", for example. Such ideas are instead dealt with in the discussion of transworld identity and counterpart theory. PWS gives clear truth conditions, is logically consistent and is extensible, unlike Aristotle's simple syllogisms.PWS avoids fatalism because it doesn't allow semantics to determine what will be ontologically true. — J
PWS avoids fatalism because it doesn't allow semantics to determine what will be ontologically true. — J
That's just a misunderstanding of what it is to be an individual. — Banno
In rigid designation (Kripke), names refer to the same individual in every world where that individual exists. Identity is preserved; variation in properties does not threaten self-identity, so long as essential properties remain fixed. — Banno
identity is world-bound; talk of “Socrates in another world” means “someone like Socrates.” — Banno
We still have the same conclusion, the fundamental laws are violated by this conception of "individual". — Metaphysician Undercover
OK, so identity is preserved, even though the same thing, according to that identity, may have contrary properties in different worlds at the same time. — Metaphysician Undercover
You keep repeating this absurdity. PWS logic is consistent with a=a. End of story. The rest is in your imaginings .
Further discourse is only encouraging your confabulations. Cheers. — Banno
Are you familiar with Taylor's work on this, and DF Wallace's response? — J
Could you say what you have in mind by something being in a different world "at the same time"? The same time as what? It's a different world, isn't it? — J
Now you are misrepresenting what I have said. — Banno
So you've just moved from the Aristotelian definition of "possible" where excluded middle is violated because "possible" means neither has nor has not the property,
Could you say what you have in mind by something being in a different world "at the same time"? The same time as what? It's a different world, isn't it?
— J — Metaphysician Undercover
This was in relation to Banno's explanation: "Possible Worlds Semantics (PWS) avoids fatalism by allowing multiple possible futures, each with fixed truths...". The different possible futures, each with its fixed truth, would all refer to the same future time. So the same item would have contradictory properties, at the same time, because that same item would have existence in a multitude of different worlds, with different properties, at the same time. — Metaphysician Undercover
the same object maintains its identity as itself throughout the multitude of possible worlds (Kripke) . . . The first case (Kripke) violates the law of noncontradiction. — Metaphysician Undercover
Do you conceive of possible worlds as sharing an actual, existential timeline? Such that event A in world W literally happens at the same time as event B in world Y? — J
The two events, being distinct, can't share the same space, so why would we imagine they could share the same time? — J
Not as Kripke understands "same object" -- and I would argue that this is the common-sense understanding as well. You've read Naming and Necessity, I suppose? In his example, "Richard Nixon" is a rigid designator; thus, Nixon remains Nixon -- the "same object" -- regardless of whether he wins or loses the 1968 election. For this to violate some law of non-contradiction, you'd have to maintain that every single property, action, and attribute of a given object is essential to its being what it is. Do you really want to do that? — J
You seem to be hung up on the idea that every property of an object is essential to that object's identity. If not, then two distinct objects could have the same identity. Why is this difficult for you to accept? — Metaphysician Undercover
It leads to implausible claims. Joe has the property of being awake at T1, and the property of being asleep at T2. These are certainly not trivial properties, yet does anyone claim that Joe is not the same person? — J
At the risk of being a nag, could I suggest again that you actually read one of Kripke's lectures? — J
This is modal collapse. There are no possible worlds. It imposes metaphysical essentialism on the system. Meta’s view amounts to a denial of genuine modality.□(P(x)) for any property P that x has in the actual world.
we can't ask why something happened instead of something else — because nothing else could have happened. — Banno
The upshot is that while in Meta's system we might be able to say "Meta might have read Kripke", this cannot be more than a string of words. We cannot make any deductions therefrom, like "If Meta had read Kripke then we might not be having this conversation". — Banno
Then, by p(x)⊃☐p(x), I would be you in the actual world, which is false. So I don't see that Meta can get even to this."if I were you... — Hanover
Well for Meta, it must be, since it supposes the possibility that he is correct, and it must follow from p(x)⊃☐p(x) that he is necessarily correct...isn't your analysis of Meta's argument a contradiction of your argument. — Hanover
Odd, that it's apparently OK to index a proposition in time: "Joe was asleep at 4 am but awake at 4 PM"; but to refuse to index a proposition in reference to possible worlds: "Joe was asleep in w₀ but awake in w₁" — Banno
This is modal collapse. There are no possible worlds. It imposes metaphysical essentialism on the system. Meta’s view amounts to a denial of genuine modality. — Banno
So how are we to understand modal sentences? That "the table could have been red instead of blue" is an impossibility, since then it would not have been that table. Even taking it that "the table could have been red instead of blue" amounts to "there might have been some other table that was blue" fails, because that other table would not be this table. Any variation in property means we are talking about a different object. — Banno
Not that I agree with Meta's other thoughts on hyper-strictnesss of identity, but I don't know a consequence of it is the inability to assess hypotheticals entirely. — Hanover
Can you see another way to save Meta from modal collapse? Is p(x)⊃☐p(x) too strong a rendering of his account? — Banno
is a possible object, and this means that it cannot have a true identity. — Metaphysician Undercover
You seem to be hung up on the idea that every property of an object is essential to that object's identity. If not, then two distinct objects could have the same identity. Why is this difficult for you to accept?
It leads to implausible claims. Joe has the property of being awake at T1, and the property of being asleep at T2.
What I have been complaining about is the way that modal logic is interpreted and applied. To avoid determinism, (fatalism), we must allow that any spoken about object has no existence, or true identity, in the future, and therefore the fundamental laws are inapplicable. It is a possible object, and this means that it cannot have a true identity. But in the past, the object had existence, therefore identity, and the laws are applicable. If we do not respect this difference, that modal logic can be applied consistently with the three laws toward the past, but it cannot be applied consistently with the three laws toward the future, equivocation of different senses of "possible" is implied, along with significant misunderstanding
It leads to implausible claims. Joe has the property of being awake at T1, and the property of being asleep at T2.
Indeed. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Of course. And it is also, after Kripke, clearly qualified with "in the same possible world". To ask what might have happened if Caesar had not crossed the Rubicon is not to ask what might have happened if Caesar had both crossed and not crossed the Rubicon.There is no problem with time. The law of noncontradiction is clearly qualified with "at the same time". — Metaphysician Undercover
I hope it is clear, and as the Roman example given above exemplifies, possible worlds can be about the past as well as the future. If we accept rigid designation, the possible Caesar who did not cross the Rubicon is the very same as the actual Caesar who did. That that is, "what might have happened if Caesar had not crossed the Rubicon" is a question about Caesar, and not about some other person in some other possible world who happens to have the same name.As you and I discussed the "possible world" is how we relate to the future. — Metaphysician Undercover
As previously explained, this is addressed in a Kripke-style answer to the sea battle problem. Will there be a sea battle tomorrow? Two possible worlds are accessible, one in which the sea battle occurs, the other in which it does not. As things stand, today we do not know which is the actual world, tomorrow night we will. But the accessibility response is not limited to temporality, in the way your response is....we need to be clear to distinguish between the "ontological possibility" of the future... and the "epistemic possibility" of the past... — Metaphysician Undercover
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