• frank
    17.3k

    The resolution of conflict. It's not a static thing.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k

    OK, but objects are not static things either. So how do you draw the conclusion of reification?
  • frank
    17.3k

    The average object is a reification isn't it?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k

    Yes, but that "it's not a static thing" does not imply that it's not an object. Objects are not necessarily static things, so how is reification implicated?.
  • frank
    17.3k

    Dialectics seems to leave everything in a shadowy state. Every property seems to contain it's opposite. We could interpret Hegel as suggesting that we reach the truth by way of synthesis. A higher truth, anyway. So we imagine a pending resolution is a gate to something substantial. But if we take synthesis that way, we've forgotten the point of dialectics, haven't we? Our synthesis is really just another thesis, containing its own negation.

    It's in that state of associating satisfaction with synthesis that the act of reification dwells.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k

    I don't see it. Wikipedia tells me reification is a form of alienation. So that would be the opposite of this negation of the negation, which leads to the positive synthesis. Are you saying that Adorno's negative dialectics, which disputes this interpretation, is itself a reification?
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    LND, Lecture 2 (continued)

    covered some of this nicely but here are my own thoughts.

    He looks at what I'll call "pop positivity":

    The situation today is one that secretly everyone finds deeply dubious, but it is also one that is so overpowering that people feel they can do nothing about it, and perhaps they can in fact do nothing about it. Nowadays – in contrast to what Hegel criticized as abstract subjectivity or abstract negativity – what predominates in the general public is an ideal of abstract positivity ... — p.17

    His antipathy to this is a big part of the reason he chose to call his dialectics negative:

    Now, when I speak of ‘negative dialectics’ not the least important reason for doing so is my desire to dissociate myself from this fetishization of the positive ... — p.18

    He is talking about the idea that positivity is something good in itself, expressed in everyday life with the familiar imperative to "keep on smiling," which characterizes the "positive attitude". Adorno makes the simple point that before we say yes, we might want to stop and ask what we're saying yes to.

    Since the examples he gives from everyday life seem fairly harmless, I wondered how this kind of positivity could have helped to motivate him to label his philosophy "negative". I think it becomes clearer as the lecture progresses.

    The fetishization he's talking about has a pernicious manifestation, today known as toxic positivity, which involves the repression and minimization of suffering. We see this in the "Law of Attraction," a quasi-religious self-help movement whose core message implies a kind of victim-blaming: if something bad happens to you, it's because you've failed to send enough positivity out into the universe.

    He returns to Hegel to criticize his dialectic as a whole for its positive culmination:

    The fact is that what we might call the secret or the point of his philosophy is that the quintessence of all the negations it contains – not just the sum of negations but the process that they constitute – is supposed to culminate in a positive sense, namely in the famous dialectical proposition with which you are all familiar that ‘what is actual is rational’. It is precisely this point, the positive nature of the dialectic as a whole, the fact that we can recognize the totality as rational rightdown into the irrationality of its individual components, the fact that we can declare the totality to be meaningful – that is what seems tome to have become untenable. — p.19

    He rams the point home by referring to the line he is most famous for: "To write poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric" (which is from a 1951 essay called "Cultural Criticism and Society").

    I do not know whether the principle that no poem can be written after Auschwitz can be sustained. But the idea that we can say of the world as a whole in all seriousness that it has a meaning now that we have experienced Auschwitz, and witnessed a world in which that was possible and that threatens to repeat itself in another guise or a similar one – I remind you of Vietnam – to assert such an idea would seem to me to be a piece of cynical frivolity that is simply indefensible to what we might call the pre-philosophical mind. A philosophy that blinds itself to this fact and that in its overweening arrogance fails to absorb this reality and continues to insist that there is a meaning despite everything – this seems to me more than we can reasonably expect anyone who has not been made stupid by philosophy to tolerate (since as a matter of fact, alongside its other functions, philosophy is capable of making people stupid).

    This is about Hegelian philosophy, and I think you can make the same point in reference to pop-positivity and the ideology of optimism as seen not only in the Law of Attraction but also in such works as Steven Pinker's Enlightenment Now and Matt Ridley's The Rational Optimist, in which suffering and horror are (arguably) reduced either to primitive stages or else to set-backs on the march of Progress.

    This brings everything back to the nonidentical. There is a passage in Minima Moralia in which he connects this concept with genocide:

    ... neither Timur nor Genghis Khan nor the British colonial administration of India deliberately burst the lungs of millions of human beings with poison gas ...

    One cannot bring Auschwitz into analogy with the destruction of the Greek city-states in terms of a mere gradual increase of horror, regarding which one preserves one’s peace of mind. Certainly, the martyrdom and degradation suffered by those in the cattle-cars, completely without precedent, casts a harsh, deathly light on the most distant past, in whose obtuse and unplanned violence the scientifically organized kind was already teleologically at work. The identity lies in the non-identity, in what has not yet been, which denounces what has been. The statement that it’s always been the same, is untrue in its immediacy, true only through the dynamic of the totality. Whoever allows the cognition of the increase of horror to escape them, does not merely fall prey to cold-hearted contemplation, but fails to recognize, along with the specific difference of what is newest from what has gone before, simultaneously the true identity of the whole, of horror without end.
    — Minima Moralia, 149

    For Adorno then, it seems that being positive, whether you're doing history, Hegelian philosophy, or just the everyday fetishization, is a kind of identity thinking, which obscures the particulars. To put events on a historical continuum or in a ready category is, like Hegel's final synthesis or the Law of Attraction, an affirmation of meaning, and you can't get more positive than that. But in doing this one refuses to hear actual suffering voices.

    The other way he expresses this is with the term abstract. The idea here seems to be that in both cases the abstraction is a removal from the stuff of life, from the particulars. Just as, in Hegel's philosophy, the abstract freedom of the critical subject represents the individual's self-conception as independent of society, which is thus a forgetting of or abstraction away from the individual's sociality, so abstract positivity represents both a forgetting of what it is we're being positive about, and a reduction of the bad stuff to inconveniences, or worse, self-inflicted wounds.

    He says that negative dialectics, since it's essentially critical of all this positivity—the idea that everything is okay or will be for the best in the end—could be just another term for critical theory as such. But...

    Perhaps, to be more precise, with the sole difference that critical theory really signifies only the subjective side of thought, that is to say, theory, while negative dialectics signifi es not only that aspect of thought but also the reality that is affected by it. In other words, it encapsulates not just a process of thought but also, and this is good Hegel, a process affecting things. This critical character of dialectics has to be dissected into a series of elements. The first of these is the one I attempted to explain last time – as you will perhaps recollect – namely the relation of concept to thing. — p.20

    What I think this amounts to is that Adorno is going to have to provide some kind of philosophical justification for the project, that is, something resembling epistemology and metaphysics in which he sets out his picture of the concept-object relation and experience in general. This is interesting because he usually positions himself against epistemology and metaphysics.

    But, after reminding us that what he's doing has nothing to do with Soviet dialectical materialism or Lenin's incompetent criticism of Hegel, he ends by emphasizing the need for the critical and the negative, alluding to a possible paradox, namely that philosophy is essentially false:

    Do not forget that the very fact that thinking takes place in concepts ensures that the faculty that produces concepts, namely mind, is manoeuvred into a kind of position of priority from the very outset; and that if you concede even an inch to this priority of spirit – whether in the shape of the ‘givens’ that present themselves to the mind in the form of sense data or in the shape of categories – if you concede even an inch to this principle, then there is in fact no escape from it. — p.21
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    The lecture is concluded by assertions that he adheres firmly to Hegelian principlesMetaphysician Undercover

    This is a minor quibble. He says that all of his ideas are contained in Hegel's philosophy at least in tendency. That is, interpreted a certain way, everything he's saying can be spun out of Hegel. I don't think that's the same as saying he adheres firmly to Hegelian principles.

    Incidentally, I forgot to mention this bit, also from near the end:

    I believe furthermore that at present a true philosophical critique of the hypostasis of mind is fully justified because this hypostasis is proving irresistible to philosophy, which after all operates in the medium of the intellect, which thrives exclusively and at all times in the mind.

    This is something like my example of consciousness, which I suggested might be a "frozen concept" that could do with some dialectical thought to loosen it up. Of course, what I was talking about without realizing it was reification or hypostasization (I'm not clear on the difference).
  • frank
    17.3k

    I think we're fond of doing that with individuality, noting in various ways how the very idea of an individual arises against the backdrop of society.

    With consciousness it seems like we're bumping against the limits of language. I don't have a vantage point on consciousness.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k
    This is a minor quibble. He says that all of his ideas are contained in Hegel's philosophy, or are contained at least in tendency. That is, interpreted a certain way, everything he's saying can be spun out of Hegel. I don't think that's the same as saying he adheres firmly to Hegelian principles.Jamal

    Ok, what I said was completely an exaggeration, not an interpretation which remains true to Adorno's intention. It seems I have an odd subconscious habit of seizing on quirky lines and directing attention to them by interpreting them in a strange way. So what exactly is Adorno's intention in mentioning this?
    The quirky lines often betray secrets which the author has no intention of revealing.

    This what he actually said:

    The enormous power of Hegel – that is the power which
    impresses us so hugely today and, God knows,
    it is a power that impresses me today to the point where I
    am fully aware that, of the ideas that I am presenting to you, there
    is not a single one that is not contained, in tendency at least, in
    Hegel’s philosophy.

    So, to pay respect for the difference you point out, what I see is a trick of rhetoric. He apprehends Hegel as hugely powerful in influencing the minds of men, and he has a desire to tap into that power, perhaps having political objectives. To support this end, he has mentioned some work of the younger Hegel, which is somewhat inconsistent with the older Hegel, and with reference to this, he claims everything he says is "contained" (in a qualified sense) in Hegel.

    The trickery is this. He implies that he and the thoughts he presents, originate from, or have been greatly influenced by ("contained") by Hegel, suggesting that he is Hegelian. In reality, he is not, but he knows that Hegel is understood as a powerful authority, and he desires to gain support for his project by appearing to be consistent with Hegel.
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    So, to pay respect for the difference you point out, what I see is a trick of rhetoric. He apprehends Hegel as hugely powerful in influencing the minds of men, and he has a desire to tap into that power, perhaps having political objectives. To support this end, he has mentioned some work of the younger Hegel, which is somewhat inconsistent with the older Hegel, and with reference to this, he claims everything he says is "contained" (in a qualified sense) in Hegel.

    The trickery is this. He implies that he and the thoughts he presents, originate from, or have been greatly influenced by ("contained") by Hegel, suggesting that he is Hegelian. In reality, he is not, but he knows that Hegel is understood as a powerful authority, and he desires to gain support for his project by appearing to be consistent with Hegel
    Metaphysician Undercover

    Interesting take, by which I mean you're dead wrong.

    Adorno wants to do what all good philosophers want to do, which is to overturn philosophy with a critique of what has come before. He is doing this with Hegel, but at the same time distinguishing himself from the shallow critics of Hegel. That is what's happening when he praises Hegel, as in, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, because Hegel is still fundamental --- and this is an honest response to what he sees as misunderstandings. I see no reason not to think his assessment of Hegel is honest.

    I've read two of Adorno's lecture courses and also Dialectic of Enlightenment and Minima Moralia --- and on that basis I can judge the idea that he has an ulterior motive for praising Hegel, that his engagement with him is opportunistic rather than dialectical, as hasty, baseless, and scurrilous (that reminds me that you've put forward one of these uncharitable accusations before --- I remember calling you "scurrilous" --- but I can't recall what it was about EDIT: it was about German philosophers). The idea that he is appealing to authority to gain recognition for his own philosophy can only be excused by a lack of familiarity with Adorno and his milieu. But even then, I can't see why you would jump to that conclusion.

    He was already at the time of these lectures (1965/66) very influential and highly respected (this was late in his career). Left-wing activist students in Germany already looked to him for support and guidance, he was fairly high-profile in the culture, and philosophically he was seen as the guiding light of critical theory. I don't see how he had anything to prove, in terms of personal reputation. Also, he had no political objectives and was generally against activism in this period (the time for praxis had gone and there was no prospect of its returning (he wasn't a big fan of what the rebellious students were doing, as it turned out)).

    Also, appeals to authority are totally not Adorno's style. He's giving credit where it's due, and positioning himself against other critics of Hegel. So I think he is pretty much the opposite of what you're accusing him of being: he is Hegelian, and against Hegel.
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    LND, Lecture 3

    This lecture starts by deepening the account of negativity he began in lecture 2, and then goes on to look at the question, "is negative dialectics possible?"

    In this post I'll look at the first part, on negativity. One of the things he does here is answer the objection I voiced about lecture 2:

    It almost looks like he's chosen the evaluative descriptor, "negative," as a nay-saying gesture, which an uncharitable person might think is hardly better than the yay-saying he criticizes (or thinks is stupid).Jamal

    He is aware of this danger, and stresses that abstract negativity is no better than abstract positivity. Both are examples of reification.

    In reification, concepts ...

    ... are no longer measured against their contents, but instead are taken in isolation, so that people take up attitudes to them without bothering to inquire further into the truth content of what they refer to. For example, if we take the concept ‘positive’, which is essentially a concept expressing a relation, we see that it has no validity on its own but only in relation to something that is to be affirmed or negated. Then we find that simply because of the emotional values that it has acquired, that have accumulated around the word, the term is wrenched out of the context in which it has validity and is turned into an independent and absolute thing, the measure of all things. — p.23

    And since the same goes for negativity, and the two are nothing without each other, it follows that nay-saying is little better than yea-saying. But before he makes that point he says something interesting about the origin of reification:

    Its principal cause is undoubtedly the irrevocable loss of absolutely binding uniform categories. This means that the less the mind possesses predetermined so-called substantial, unquestioned meanings, the more it tends to compensate for this by literally fetishizing concepts of its own devising which possess nothing that transcends consciousness. In short it makes absolutes of things it has created. And it achieves this by tearing them from their context and then ceasing to think of them further. — p.24

    I take "the irrevocable loss of absolutely binding uniform categories" to be referring to the loss of certainty in God and the fragmentation of meaning, or disenchantment, of the post-Enlightenment world. So the idea is that with the disappearance of unquestionable spiritual and intellectual authorities and the lack of a metaphysical foundation that everyone can agree on, thinkers have invented concept after concept in a search for meaning, and have—as compensation for the lack of shared certainty—reified those concepts, treating them as absolutes, self-evident, fixed things.

    Reification would have been a familiar concept to the attendees of the lectures, but for me it's always had something mysterious about it, and it's not used much outside modern continental philosophy and Marxism, so I think it's worth defining it roughly. It literally means thingification and it refers to the way in which concepts, processes and relations are treated as fixed and self-contained, i.e., as separate things. I spoke earlier of "frozen concepts," giving the example of consciousness—or mind might be the better example here—which is treated as a thing in the head.

    But in the context of Adorno, who picked up the concept of reification from Lukacs, the thingification of consciousness or mind might be better termed hypostasization, which is the fundamental philosophical error of which reification is an instance or type specifically in the context of society (or the theory thereof, i.e., sociology, political science, etc).

    An important consequence, for social philosophy, of the solidification that results from reification is that concepts, processes, and relations come to be seen as fixed, natural, and unquestionable. For example, the market is now an unquestionable thing standing above society, increasingly outside of the reach of politics—or so it seems. One of the tasks of critical theory, then, is to uncover such reifications, as Marx had done with the commodity (see commodity fetishism).

    Reification is obviously connected with identity thinking. I'm thinking it's like this:

    Identity thinking (epistemology)
        
    Hypostasization (ontology)
        
    Reification (sociology, politics, etc)

    Next, he admits that the way he has already introduced the meaning of his negativity—presumably he means the way he described it in lecture 2—is misleading, in that he has given the impression that he was urging the adoption of an abstract negativity against the dominant abstract positivity. This was precisely the impression I got (and which I still can't quite shake).

    He contrasts abstract negativity, or negativity in itself, with what he is really getting at with his negative dialectics, which is something to do with determinate negation:

    But I believe that, if you wish to grasp what I am aiming at but am forced to explain to you in stages, you should be clear in your minds from the outset that we are not speaking here about negativity as a universal, abstract principle of the kind that I was initially forced to develop – or not to develop, but that I placed at the start of my argument because I had to start somewhere, even if I do not believe in an absolute beginning. Instead, the negativity I am speaking about contains a pointer to what Hegel calls determinate negation. In other words, negativity of this kind is made concrete and goes beyond mere standpoint philosophy by confronting concepts with their objects and, conversely, objects with their concepts. — p.25

    In answering the charge that he doesn't apply his much-vaunted negativity to his own ideas, he is brought to some interesting reflections on the meaning of negativity.

    He imagines one such criticism:

    ‘Well, if he has got a negative principle or if he thinks negativity is such an important matter then he ought really to say nothing at all’ — p.26

    After all, to say anything at all in philosophy is a positive act, an affirmation, and Adorno agrees that ...

    ... there is perhaps a so-called positive motive force of thought ... — p.26

    There follows a dense and interesting passage which I think is pretty important. I'll separate it into paragraphs for easier reading.

    But I believe that precisely this aspect of positivity, which acts as a corollary to negativity, is conjoined with the principle of negativity because it resists being fixed once and for all in an abstract, static manner.

    If it is true that every philosophy that can have any claims at all to the truth lives from the ancient fires, i.e. it secularizes not just philosophy, but also theology, then we have identified here, or so I believe, an outstanding point in the secularization process. It is the fact that the prohibition on graven images that occupies a position of central importance in the religions that believe in salvation, that this prohibition extends into the ideas and the most sublime ramifications of thought.

    Hence, to make this quite clear, the issue is not to deny the existence of a certain fixed point, it is not even to deny the existence of some fixed element in thought; we shall in due course, I hope, come to discuss the meaning of such a fixed element in dialectical logic in very concrete terms. But the fixed, positive point, just like negation, is an aspect – and not something that can be anticipated, placed at the beginning of everything.
    — p.26

    The upshot is that positivity and negativity are mutually dependent aspects of each other. I think the bit about secularization and graven images is suggesting that just as religions needed this prohibition (against graven images), philosophy in the secularized world needs a prohibition against reification—referring back to his account of the origin of reification.

    This leads him to anticipate an important question:

    You may well ask me about what I said earlier on: if you admit that the positive, like the negative, is no more than an aspect, and that neither may be regarded as an absolute – why then do I privilege the concept of negativity so emphatically?

    The philosophical answer, he says, will have to wait, and we just have to be patient. But the practical answer is there is just too much positivity in the world, and that since this positivity "turns out to be negative," as in bad (nationalism, racism, etc)—and here he makes use of the different senses of the positive-negative dimension that he discussed in the last lecture—it "behoves us to assume" the negative attitude.

    So if we suspected that his choice of the "negative" descriptor was somewhat rhetorical and emotionally charged, then maybe we were right. But then, he would not have accepted dichotomies with evaluative/emotive/rhetorical on one side, and detached/objective/rational on the other.
  • frank
    17.3k
    concepts ...

    ... are no longer measured against their contents,
    Jamal

    I think when he says "contents" he's talking about real events that stand as examples of concepts. Like with music, the score is the concept (or form), and a performance is the content. He said it's a mistake to fail to see the way the performance is its own entity, each moment arising out of the history of the performance, and propelled onward from there. The score is literally nothing in the absence of the performance (and vice versa).

    That would relate to the mind as when people think of mind as a domain or vault of some kind. They're separating mind from the living flow of events that are the content of the concept of mind.
  • Paine
    2.8k

    I guess that one example of negativity being 'reified' points to Adorno objecting to the "material" as a reliable pole star in Marx and Lenin (and Lukács).

    In Negative Dialectics, Adorno observes:

    The corporeal moment registers the cognition, that suffering ought not to be, that things should be different. “Woe speaks: go.” That is why what is specifically materialistic converges with what is critical, with socially transforming praxis. The abolition of suffering, or its mitigation to a degree which is not to be theoretically assumed in advance, to which no limit can be set, is not up to the individual who endures suffering, but solely to the species that it belongs to, even where it has subjectively renounced the latter and is objectively forced into the absolute loneliness of the helpless object. All activities of the species make reference to its physical continued existence, even if they fail to recognize this, becoming organizationally autonomous and seeing to their business only as an afterthought. Even the institutions which society creates in order to exterminate itself are, as unleashed, absurd self-preservation, simultaneously their own unconscious actions against suffering. Narrowly restricted indeed by what is their own, their total particularity also turns against this. Confronted with them, the purpose which alone makes society into a society demands that it be so arranged, as what the relations of production here and there relentlessly prevent, and as what would be immediately possible to the productive forces right here and now. Such an arrangement would have its telos in the negation of physical suffering of even the least of its members, and of the innervated reflection-forms of that suffering. It is in the interest of all, at this point to be realized solely through a solidarity transparent to itself and to every living being.

    MATERIALISM IMAGELESS
    To those who wish that it not be realized, materialism has in the meantime done the favor of its self-degradation. The immaturity which caused this is not, as Kant thought, the fault of humanity itself. In the meantime at least it is reproduced according to plan by the powers that be. The objective Spirit, which they direct, because they require its chaining, adjusts itself to that consciousness, which was enchained for millennia. The materialism which achieved political power has devoted itself to such praxis no less than the world, which it once wanted to change; it continues to chain the consciousness, instead of comprehending it and for its part changing it. Terroristic state-machineries entrench themselves under the threadbare pretext of a soon to be fifty-year-old dictatorship of the long since administrated proletariat as permanent institutions, the mockery of the theory which they pay lip service to. They chain their underlings to their immediate interests and keep them narrow-minded. The depravation of theory meanwhile would not have been possible without the dregs of the apocryphal in it. By leaping summarily outside of culture, the functionaries who monopolize it would like to crudely feign that they would be beyond culture, and thus give sustenance to universal regression. What philosophy wished to liquidate, in the expectation of the immediately impending revolution, was, impatient with its claim, already at that moment lagging behind it. What is apocryphal in materialism reveals that of high philosophy, that which is untrue in the sovereignty of the Spirit, which the prevailing materialism disdains as cynically as bourgeois society had done in secret before. The idealistic sublime is the cognate of the apocryphal; the texts of Kafka and Beckett harshly illuminate this relationship.

    Solely indefatigably reified consciousness imagines, or tries to persuade others into imagining, that it would possess photographs of objectivity. Its illusion crosses over into dogmatic immediacy. When Lenin, instead of entering into epistemology, compulsively and repeatedly asserted against this the being-in-itself of cognitive objects, he wanted to demonstrate the complicity of subjective positivism with the “powers that be” [in English]. His political need turned thereby against the theoretical cognitive goal. Transcendent argumentation finishes things off by means of the power-claim, and for ill: by being left unpenetrated, what is criticized remains undisturbed as it is, and is capable, as what has not been properly examined, of being resurrected in transformed power-constellations any which way.

    Materialistic theory became not merely aesthetically defective in contrast to the hollowed-out sublime of bourgeois consciousness, but untrue. This is theoretically determinable. The dialectic is in the things, but it would not be without the consciousness which reflects it; no more than it could be dissolved into the latter. In the One pure and simple, undifferentiated, total matter, there would be no dialectic. The official materialistic one skipped over epistemology by decree. The latter’s revenge is epistemological: in the reflection-doctrine [Abbildlehre]. The thought is no reflection of the thing – it is made into this solely by
    materialistic mythology in Epicurean style, which discovered that matter sends out little images – but aims at the thing itself. The enlightening intention of thought, demythologization, nullifies the image-character of consciousness. What clings to the image remains mythically ensnared, idolatry. The summation of images forms a wall before reality. Reflection-theory denies the spontaneity of the subject, a movens [Latin: what moves] of the objective dialectic of productive forces and relations of production. If the subject is bound to the stubborn mirror-image of the object, which necessarily lacks the object,
    which discloses itself only to the subjective surplus in thought, then the result is the restless intellectual silence of integral administration.
    Adorno, Negative Dialectics, page 224 ff, translated by Dennis Redmond

    The way Adorno bounces what is imagined or not in particular schemes is interesting.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k

    There is no reason for him to mention "The enormous power of Hegel", and speak as if he's awed by this mysterious force of ideology. How is that consistent with his project of negative dialectics? And he did this right after claiming we need to critique the hypostasis of mind. Instead, he's sucking up to it when he says that all his ideas are contained in Hegel.

    Anyway, you can call me scurrilous, and I'll say that you turn a blind eye, willfully ignore and deny, a significant aspect of German philosophy. Now we can happily continue on, with these negative opinions about each other.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k
    He contrasts abstract negativity, or negativity in itself, with what he is really getting at with his negative dialectics, which is something to do with determinate negation:Jamal

    When he talks about "confronting concepts with their objects and, conversely, objects with their concepts", isn't this exactly the type of identity philosophy which he claims to be rejecting?

    And, the meaning of "determinate negation" seems very unclear. It appears strangely like a reification. When "negativity of this kind is made concrete", doesn't this imply making it a fixed object? He may attempt to explain this when he talks about the "fixed element" as an aspect rather than an absolute, but it's very unclear what he is trying to do here.

    Maybe it will become clearer when he addresses the question of whether a negative dialectics is even possible. Maybe it will end up being self-defeating, and we'll just be negating the negative dialectic.

    See I'm practising my negative (critical) thinking, to see how it goes.
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    See I'm practising my negative (critical) thinking, to see how it goes.Metaphysician Undercover

    I suggest you sublate yourself by directing your negativity inwards. Like I said, I'd like to postpone criticism of Adorno till after we understand the material, and in the meantime practice hermeneutic charitability.

    But it's fair to point out that determinate negation is unclear. I actually meant to go into that in my last post but forgot. Adorno's audience, like all German humanities students at the time, would have been quite familiar with Hegel, so they would have known what he was talking about.

    When he talks about "confronting concepts with their objects and, conversely, objects with their concepts", isn't this exactly the type of identity philosophy which he claims to be rejecting?Metaphysician Undercover

    There's no getting away from the concept-object confrontation; the question is how much of the object is lost in the confrontation, or how much the nonidentical is otherwise part of the experience in which the concept-object confrontation is central (which is so far unexplained).

    As for your scurrilous defamations, I think they're so ridiculous that they must be motivated by strong prejudice, and I guess I won't be able to argue you out of that. I look forward to your continued participation in the reading group and your eventual contrition.
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    I think when he says "contents" he's talking about real events that stand as examples of concepts. Like with music, the score is the concept (or form), and a performance is the content. He said it's a mistake to fail to see the way the performance is its own entity, each moment arising out of the history of the performance, and propelled onward from there. The score is literally nothing in the absence of the performance (and vice versa).

    That would relate to the mind as when people think of mind as a domain or vault of some kind. They're separating mind from the living flow of events that are the content of the concept of mind.
    frank

    Well put.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k
    There's no getting away from the concept-object confrontation; the question is how much of the object is lost in the confrontation, or how much the nonidentical is otherwise part of the experience in which the concept-object confrontation is central (which is so far unexplained).Jamal

    I don't like this concept-object confrontation, and I do not see the need for it. It appears like it will reduce the activity of mind to mere representation, and this would be an ignorance of what I believe to be the primary activity of mind, creativity. I believe that a proper understanding of concepts reveals that there is no necessity of a corresponding object, and this lack of object is not a fault of the concept, but a feature of its utility, versatility, and infinite applicability. This is what we see in mathematics for example, conceptions produced without corresponding objects.

    The issue though is that since there is no object which corresponds with these concepts, a loss of objectivity becomes apparent. There is nothing to ground "truth". Then the pure mathematicians who dream up these concepts with their imaginations tend toward Platonism to fill this gap, producing a vacuous form of "objectivity". The concept and object are one and the same.

    I think they're so ridiculous that they must be motivated by strong prejudice, and I guess I won't be able to argue you out of that.Jamal

    There is prejudice here, no doubt. I don't believe it is strong though. Since the matter is the intentions which authors conceal from us in the secrecy of their own minds, it is something which can only be speculated about, therefore confidence cannot be obtained. If one allowed oneself confidence (strong prejudice), in this sort of matter, that person would be subsumed by paranoia. But also the highly speculative nature makes it very difficult to argue one out of it, as well.

    Anyway, I'll try to hold off the criticism until the designated time slot, and enjoy the reading. I find the material well written and very interesting. And I don't mean this in the sense of "dead wrong", I'll withhold judgement on that.
  • Jamal
    10.6k
    Anyway, I'll try to hold off the criticism until the designated time slot, and enjoy the reading. I find the material well written and very interesting.Metaphysician Undercover

    Cool. Yeah the lectures are fun to read. But be warned: you will find a big difference in style when we get to Negative Dialectics itself, which is dense and severe.
  • frank
    17.3k
    . I believe that a proper understanding of concepts reveals that there is no necessity of a corresponding object, and this lack of object is not a fault of the concept, but a feature of its utility, versatility, and infinite applicability. This is what we see in mathematics for example, conceptions produced without corresponding objects.Metaphysician Undercover

    Adorno agreed with Lukacs that the perspective you're describing is embedded in human consciousness, and its origin is in the concept of exchange value (basically the abstraction we call money). So he would totally understand what you're saying, but would warn that it leads to the conundrum of indirect realism.

    By the way, this alienation of subject to object (or concept to content) is what Adorno is calling idealism.
  • Banno
    27.4k
    A reaction: I'm struck by how this rejection of positivity parallels the criticism of faith I have been outlining in that thread.

    There are also some interesting relations to logical pluralism in the rejection of a single totalising framework and sensitivity context.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k
    By the way, this alienation of subject to object (or concept to content) is what Adorno is calling idealism.frank

    The problem is that this supposed alienation, concept without object, is a very true aspect of reality, what is at the base of creativity, like I explained. So Adorno needs to provide good reasons if he moves to reject it. Because it is idealism isn't a good reason. Idealism itself only becomes problematic when ideas are objectified, reified, as I explained is the case with common Platonism.
  • frank
    17.3k
    Idealism itself only becomes problematic when ideas are objectified, reified, as I explained is the case with common Platonism.Metaphysician Undercover

    But we know Plato grooved on the dialectics, so would he have really gotten mired in what Adorno calls idealism?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k
    Jamal touched on this above, but at page 26, he appears to approach a negative part of positivity. Notice how saying 'if you have nothing positive to say, don't say anything' is really, itself, saying something negative. This is a negative aspect of positivity. So positivity's approach to negativity, can be, and often is negative.

    But I believe that precisely
    this aspect of positivity, which acts as a corollary to negativity, is
    conjoined with the principle of negativity because it resists being fixed
    once and for all in an abstract, static manner.
    — p27

    He then describes this as a "prohibition", and the prohibition is called a "fixed element", which is said to be an "aspect". Notice it is the fixed positive point which becomes an aspect of the negative. This appears to me to be the intended grounding of the "determinate negative", it sort of reciprocates to the positive, or the positive submits to the negative, through prohibition. This must be where we find will power, and the moral capacity to say "no".

    He then proceeds to express how the world is overflowing with positivity, but much of it turns out to actually be negative, like the example above. So negative dialectics is called for, and this constitutes an important difference between him and Hegel who taught positive dialectics. And he describes Hegelian dialectics as a sort of vicious circle, where the analytic becomes the synthetic and vise versa.

    It is here that critical thinking and Hegel have to part company. — 28

    Now he proceeds to the question " is a negative dialectics at all possible?" And, we see how the object can be the subject, or the object be a concept:

    Can we speak of a dialectical
    process if movement is not brought into play by the fact that the
    object that is to be understood as distinct from spirit turns out itself
    to be spirit.
    — p28

    Further, the source of determinate negativity is said to be in "bad positivity". This bad positivity is characterized by the claim that the negation of the negation is positive. And he refers to Spinoza for an example. It's a little confusing, but it appears to be, that when the claim that something else is false, is taken to be true, but this claim is really false itself, then this falsity obtains a sort of immediacy.

    He then proceeds to criticize the Hegelian concept of synthesis. He does this with reference to Hegel's famous triad of Being, Nothing, and Becoming. He explains how being and nothing must actually be the same, identical. But to make them identical, in the sense of ideally opposed, requires that we "do violence" to the concept. The violence then requires rectification, and the rectification is what is called "synthesis".

    His criticism appears to be, that this doing violence to the concept which is required to create two opposites, as ideal, is a sort of mutilation of the concept. Therefore what is rectified, as the synthesis isn't necessarily derived from a true representation of the original concept, it's the mutilated concept. This allows that the synthesis might just as well be a step backward as a step forward. So this seems to be what validates "non-identity". Identity is a creation of that violence, and this need to do violence is a negative aspect of that positive dialectic. Then he describes this as a minimal difference between him and Hegel, but with " large-scale implications".

    The final question of this lecture is " the question of whether dialectics is possible without system". He describes a common negative attitude toward systems in philosophy, and states the following:

    What I am attempting
    here and would like to show you is the possibility of philosophy
    in an authoritative sense without either system or ontology – that is
    what I am aiming at.
    — p32

    He claims that he will show, through these lectures, "that a philosophical system is not possible".

    But we know Plato grooved on the dialectics, so would he have really gotten muted in what Adorno calls idealism?frank

    What we commonly know as Platonism is better named as "Pythagorean idealism". I read Plato as being very critical of Pythagorean idealism, through the use of dialectics. This criticism laid the ground work for Aristotle's more formal refutation of Pythagorean idealism. Because of this, I view "Platonism" as a misnomer, because Plato was actually not Platonist.
  • frank
    17.3k
    What we commonly know as Platonism is better named as "Pythagorean idealism".Metaphysician Undercover

    I didn't realize that. Thanks.

    Because of this, I view "Platonism" as a misnomer, because Plato was actually not Platonist.Metaphysician Undercover

    I agree. :up:
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k
    I didn't realize that.frank

    It's dependent on interpretation of a thorough reading. Plato's writing is commonly divided into three stages, early, middle, late. Here is a brief example of how one may interpret.

    The early provides a good demonstration of an attempt to understand Pythagorean idealism, and the associated theory of participation, through application of the dialectical method. The middle work reveals problems with this form of idealism, such as what we know as "the interaction problem", so he introduces "the good" as an active principle which bridges this gap. The later work, such as Parmenides and Sophist, reveal all sorts of problems of idealism, especially with sophistry not maintaining clear categories, and arguments produced from a predetermined end, designed for specific purposes. (Compare Adorno's doing violence to the concept.) The Timeaeus uses "matter" as a fundamental principle to sort out categories, and this becomes the base of Aristotle's "primary substance".

    Throughout, Plato's belief in idealism is strengthened, but the prevailing idealism is rejected by what we can call his "negative dialectics". This is his critical analysis of the conventional idealism. It does not refute idealism, but exposes problems, and produces the need to revamp outdated principles.
  • frank
    17.3k
    The middle work reveals problems with this form of idealism, such as what we know as "the interaction problemMetaphysician Undercover

    Adorno was preoccupied with the 'thing-in-itself' problem via Kant. I think that's similar to the interaction problem?

    He thought the problem originated in various abstractions taking root in the human psyche.

    Throughout, Plato's belief in idealism is strengthened, but the prevailing idealism is rejected by what we can call his "negative dialectics". This is his critical analysis of the conventional idealism. It does not refute idealism, but exposes problems, and produces the need to revamp outdated principles.Metaphysician Undercover

    So what was Plato's ontology then? Could you explain?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.8k

    I don't believe we can really say that Plato had an ontology. Think that's strange? Look at the quote from Adorno, p32, in my post.
123456713
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.

×
We use cookies and similar methods to recognize visitors and remember their preferences.