The physical is things like photons* hitting retina, being converted into electrical signals that go to the brain, trigger a storage mechanism containing a similar pattern of photons* hitting the retina at some point in the past during which the body sustained damage, triggering ..., on and on, and the body moves a certain way that avoids taking damage again.So, I ask rhetorically for the nth time, why can't the mental be physical? Why can't the physical be mental? — Manuel
What would intelligibility without minds mean?Is the universe intelligible to us other than through minds? Not that we know of. — Manuel
For any unit to be conscious as a unit, it must be a unit processing energy. Arrangements of particles must mean something other than the arrangements of particles that they are, and they must be processing that information. So DNA, the beginning of life, is also the beginning of groups of particles that are conscious as a unit. — Patterner
Sorry, I just don't understand your idea. — Patterner
But our consciousness is about far more than just our physical bodies. — Patterner
no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from. — Corvus
My position is that the phrase "consciously experience" is like "visually see". But my guess is you don't mean it that way. I would guess you mean something like knowingly, intellectually, or mindfully experience. Which, of course, humans do. But because we have mental abilities to be conscious of, not because those abilities are consciousness.For my philosophical purposes, I further define Consciousness as human subjective experience. That's the only type of awareness we forum posters have experienced first hand. I am skeptical that "everything", including atoms, consciously experience their existence. — Gnomon
How can you open and close the shutter without using energy?Maxwell assumed that the demon and the shutter are perfectly functioning devices with no friction or need for a power source. This is admittedly an idealization, but there is no known principle preventing an arbitrarily close approach to such mechanical perfection. Remember, friction is a macroscopic property where ordered motion, e.g. a ball rolling along the floor, is converted to disordered motion – heat – in which the ball’s energy is dissipated among trillions of tiny particles. But on a molecular scale, all is tiny. Friction doesn’t exist. — Paul Davies
I agree. The mind turns off at times, like deep sleep or general anesthesia.But our consciousness is about far more than just our physical bodies.
— Patterner
But without body, our consciousness evaporates into nothing. Our brain falls asleep every night, and when it does, the whole world of ours disappears into nothing too until bodies waking up in the morning. Bodies keep on living without conscious minds, but no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from. — Corvus
I agree. The mind turns off at times, like deep sleep or general anesthesia. — Patterner
That's not what I mean. The key is that I don't think consciousness and thinking/mental activity are related. Human consciousness is the experience of thinking/mental activity. Things that don't have thinking/mental activity, obviously, cannot experience it. But they experienced what they are.For any unit to be conscious as a unit, it must be a unit processing energy. Arrangements of particles must mean something other than the arrangements of particles that they are, and they must be processing that information. So DNA, the beginning of life, is also the beginning of groups of particles that are conscious as a unit.
— Patterner
It now seems like you're not actually saying "everything" is conscious. That's perfectly fine, since consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious. It just feels... different from what I read you saying before (partly due to the rock example, no doubt). — Dawnstorm
Yes. My criteria for "unit" is something that process information. I'm sure there is a lot more information processing going on than I recognized.There may be "things" that don't appear to me as a unit that are conscious. They would be units in themselves, but not for me. — Dawnstorm
I agree. Information processing - thinking - is a physical thing. I just posted this on response to :But without body, our consciousness evaporates into nothing. Our brain falls asleep every night, and when it does, the whole world of ours disappears into nothing too until bodies waking up in the morning. Bodies keep on living without conscious minds, but no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from. — Corvus
I believe that is a description of a mental event. Photons, vibrations in the air, etc., interact with our sensory apparatus. it is converted into another form - my electric signals. These signals represent the original. That's meaning. Information. That information is processed in the brain (for things that have a brain), and action results. That is thinking. Again, from Journey of the Mind: How Thinking Emerged from Chaos, by Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam:The physical is things like photons* hitting retina, being converted into electrical signals that go to the brain, trigger a storage mechanism containing a similar pattern of photons* hitting the retina at some point in the past during which the body sustained damage, triggering ..., on and on, and the body moves a certain way that avoids taking damage again.
Is that a description of a mental event? — Patterner
A mind is a physical system that converts sensations into action. A mind takes in a set of inputs from its environment and transforms them into a set of environment-impacting outputs that, crucially, influence the welfare of its body. This process of changing inputs into outputs—of changing sensation into useful behavior—is thinking, the defining activity of a mind. — Ogas & Gaddam
"Who am 'I' and what is the relation between mind and body? According to my understanding, there exists a specific, changeable state of some components in my brain. — Pieter R van Wyk
What do you have in mind by "consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious"? What is the alternative? — Patterner
Yes, it may be a unit only in our eyes. A rock, a stop sign, a cruise ship, a cloud, anything. those are not units in the way I mean, because there is no information processing taking place anywhere. Nevertheless, every particle that makes them up is experiencing. A particle is not experiencing thinking, intelligence, or anything mental. its existence, and therefore what it experiences, is purely physical.Also, I think the term "everything" is problematic in the sense that what appears to us as a unit may not be conscious — Dawnstorm
Yes. My information-theoretic thesis says that human Consciousness is just one of many forms of Energy-transfer and Information-sharing. Atoms are known to send & receive Energy, which causes changes in their physical systems. For example, an electron absorbs energy from a photon, and then jumps to the next higher orbit. That physical change (transformation) is a Bit of Information.My position is that the phrase "consciously experience" is like "visually see". But my guess is you don't mean it that way. I would guess you mean something like knowingly, intellectually, or mindfully experience. Which, of course, humans do. But because we have mental abilities to be conscious of, not because those abilities are consciousness. — Patterner
The physical is things like photons* hitting retina, being converted into electrical signals that go to the brain, trigger a storage mechanism containing a similar pattern of photons* hitting the retina at some point in the past during which the body sustained damage, triggering ..., on and on, and the body moves a certain way that avoids taking damage again.
Is that a description of a mental event? — Patterner
I am even thinking that mind could be physical in its nature, i.e. mind is not different existence from our bodies. Because mind can only exist when body exists as living agent. Hence body is the precondition of mind, and mind is actually a part of body. — Corvus
Good point, but a daft question. It is like asking why tables and chairs don't work as phones or computers? They are not designed / made to do those jobs.Why are brains conscious but hearts and livers aren't? — RogueAI
This sounds like a question for the biologist and neurologist.Why are only some brain processes associated with consciousness? — RogueAI
A purple flower and an image or representation of the purple flower is not the same existence.If the mind is identical to the brain, and I'm picturing a purple flower in my mind's eye, wouldn't that entail there's a purple flower in my brain? — RogueAI
Not all physical objects are replaceable and transparent to our understanding. Many physical objects such as radio waves, atoms, cells and the black holes, space ... etc are not things that we can fully understand what they are. Many of them are also presupposed and imagined objects from the effects or events in the world.If minds are physical, then by studying someone's brain, I should be able to gain access to the contents of their mind, right? — RogueAI
I forgot this part when I replied. Here's what I'm thinking...What do you have in mind by "consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious"? What is the alternative?
— Patterner
Fundamental =/= Omnipresent — Dawnstorm
We don't have a clue as to how consciousness could emerge from the physical. It's like asking how we could build a house out of liquid water. Worse, in fact, because at least houses and water are both physical things.“Can you explain,” I asked, “how neural activity causes conscious experiences, such as my experience of the color red?” “No,” he said. “If you could make up any biological fact you want,” I persisted, “can you think of one that would let you solve this problem?” “No,” he replied, but added that we must pursue research in neuroscience until some discovery reveals the solution. — Donald Hoffman
Why are brains conscious but hearts and livers aren't?
— RogueAI
Good point, but a daft question. It is like asking why tables and chairs don't work as phones or computers? They are not designed / made to do those jobs. — Corvus
Why are only some brain processes associated with consciousness?
— RogueAI
This sounds like a question for the biologist and neurologist. — Corvus
If the mind is identical to the brain, and I'm picturing a purple flower in my mind's eye, wouldn't that entail there's a purple flower in my brain?
— RogueAI
A purple flower and an image or representation of the purple flower is not the same existence. — Corvus
If minds are physical, then by studying someone's brain, I should be able to gain access to the contents of their mind, right?
— RogueAI
Not all physical objects are replaceable and transparent to our understanding. Many physical objects such as radio waves, atoms, cells and the black holes, space ... etc are not things that we can fully understand what they are. Many of them are also presupposed and imagined objects from the effects or events in the world.
We can read the radio waves on the frequency counter, we still don't know what they are. We know how to generate, transmit and receive the radio waves, but we don't see or hear them direct. We only know the audio data they carry in them, but the actual existence of the waves are unknown.
Likewise, we don't know how our brain works as they do, and brain is not replaceable. Only thing we know is that conscious mind cannot exist without working brain. Hence it is very likely physical state in its nature. There is no such thing as conscious mind as mental existence. — Corvus
Saying the brain is mysterious or not fully understood today is just an appeal to ignorance. Complete knowledge of a person's brain should equal complete knowledge of their mind, right? — RogueAI
Yep.↪Patterner are you the guy who listened to the Annika Harris audio thing with me? — flannel jesus
Thank you. It seems some would forbid such discussions.↪SophistiCat I think he wants debates within panpsychism. Which is valid. "If we start with the assumption that pansychism is true, where does that lead us?" I think that's fair. I'm not a panpsychist myself but I think that kind of approach is worth having. It's an exploration of an idea. — flannel jesus
When you open your hard drive, and look into all the parts inside the drive, you will see nothing which even remotely resembles the data you stored in it. You will see some electronic parts, capacitors, motors, transistors, chips and connectors on the magnetic platter. — Corvus
So again, where did this new knowledge of the book come from? Not from the ink. Not from the paper. Not from new physical facts. The “aboutness,” the meaning, seems to exist in a different category not reducible to physical properties alone. — RogueAI
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