• Manuel
    4.3k
    The issue here is not merely terminological but conceptual, what is mental and what is physical? It's not as if there is an intelligible distinction not made between arbitrary stipulations as in: the mental is what-it's-like subjective experience, whereas the physical is something to do with what physics says, or whatever is concrete, and the mind is not concrete.

    Our view of matter now is far removed from the old "dead and stupid" matter idea of the 16th century. It's no longer that, in fact whatever the physical is, has almost nothing to do with our intuitive ideas of "concreteness".

    So, I ask rhetorically for the nth time, why can't the mental be physical? Why can't the physical be mental?

    These terms are thrown around without much clarity, in my opinion.

    But we can ask, is consciousness fundamental? Fundamental to what? To the universe? Does the universe have mind? I don't see evidence for this view. But there is no evidence against it either.

    If by consciousness one means "what-it's-likeness", then I don't recall feeling anything prior to being born. That's the only "subjective" (but re-interpreted) experience I have of the universe, after conceptualization.

    I see no subjectivity here. Is the universe intelligible to us other than through minds? Not that we know of. So, unless these issues are clarified - not stipulated - intuitions aren't going to help, as evidenced by these endless conversations.
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    So, I ask rhetorically for the nth time, why can't the mental be physical? Why can't the physical be mental?Manuel
    The physical is things like photons* hitting retina, being converted into electrical signals that go to the brain, trigger a storage mechanism containing a similar pattern of photons* hitting the retina at some point in the past during which the body sustained damage, triggering ..., on and on, and the body moves a certain way that avoids taking damage again.

    Is that a description of a mental event?


    Is the universe intelligible to us other than through minds? Not that we know of.Manuel
    What would intelligibility without minds mean?



    *My speech to text said futons. Futons hitting retina is contraindicated.
  • Dawnstorm
    330
    For any unit to be conscious as a unit, it must be a unit processing energy. Arrangements of particles must mean something other than the arrangements of particles that they are, and they must be processing that information. So DNA, the beginning of life, is also the beginning of groups of particles that are conscious as a unit.Patterner

    It now seems like you're not actually saying "everything" is conscious. That's perfectly fine, since consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious. It just feels... different from what I read you saying before (partly due to the rock example, no doubt).

    Sorry, I just don't understand your idea.Patterner

    Don't worry. It's a thought experiment I developed for myself to make sense of an intuition I have. And the thought experiment failed to achieve that goal, so far, but I still get back to it from time to time. If you don't have that intuition, it must seem like even more nonsense than it seems to me. But I do think there's some opportunity here to figure out... our disconnect?

    I think the following might be elements of my intuition:

    There is one world, and it is what is.

    Within that world there is consciousness, at least mine. Probably more. How many there are is a fact that is not available to me.

    Things that appear to me as a unit may or may not be conscious.

    There may be "things" that don't appear to me as a unit that are conscious. They would be units in themselves, but not for me.

    If that is the case, then consciousnesses might be an aspect of the world-that-is-what-it-is that internally devides it into differening units. That might be what "a reality" is. Thus: a reality is one way to organise the world-that-is-what-it-is and it differes from other ways the world could be organised. The nodes that organise the world into realities would be consciounesses.

    Some ways to interally organise the world-that-is-what-it-is are compatible with each other, and some are not. That means what units are "real" depends on what consciouness constitutes a reality.

    That leaves us with the putative globe-as-unit in my thought experiment: partly part of a butterfly, partly part of a flower... etc. could be a real thing if we posit a putative way to internally organise the world-that-is-what-it-is such that this globe needs to stay a unit. We need to also posit a consciouness that makes sense of this. (As with your theory, "makes sense" would not be a mental event here; it would just be a mode of organisation. What's a real unit for one consciousness, is not necessarily a real unit for another. Mutual compatibility between consciousnesses and thus realities would depend, possibly among other things, on overlap of "real units".)

    I haven't quite figured out what to do with "the world-that-is-what-it-is". Logic tells me that, since it is the thing to be organised, it is in itself unorganised and thus has no consciouness and isn't real. This is a major area where I short circuit my thinking.

    In the end, it's just something that keeps my mind busy when I'm bored. None of this seems practically relevant to me. And most of it is probably nonsense, but it should be able to serve as a signpost to how my mind works.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    But our consciousness is about far more than just our physical bodies.Patterner

    But without body, our consciousness evaporates into nothing. Our brain falls asleep every night, and when it does, the whole world of ours disappears into nothing too until bodies waking up in the morning. Bodies keep on living without conscious minds, but no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from.Corvus

    Great!

    The Nature of Consciousness
    (Some gleaned from Gsin)

    Within the Brain’s vast Palace, deep and strange,
    Consciousness flows, yet cannot free-range;
    Like Sun or Tree, a Process, not a Thing—
    A river bound within its banks of change.

    (It, as a brain process can’t float around space)

    What fills our Minds arrives not instant-new,
    But late, some half-millisecond past its due;
    The Brain’s swift voting finished ere we know,
    Our conscious thoughts already past and through.

    (A forced delay, subconscious analysis taking time)

    The Map we see becomes our Territory,
    While neural states write out our second story;
    The basement toils unseen beneath our feet,
    As upstairs dwells our conscious inventory.

    (The neurological ‘basement’ is the first storey)

    Thus Consciousness arrives too late to cause,
    Though seeming master of all nature’s laws;
    A broadcast tape-delayed, yet feeling live—
    The director speaks once action draws!

    (Enjoy the play!)
    Reveal
    And when one thought has flickered through the mind,
    More brain-realms answer, leaving none behind;
    Thus contemplation’s thread unwinds its spool,
    Each moment to the next forever twined.

    (The Greatest Stitcher; no seams)

    Behold its nature’s aspects five unfold:
    Compositional structures manifold,
    Intrinsic as our own, Informing clear,
    Integrated, Exclusive in its hold.

    (The whole darn operation)

    United feels this field of conscious thought,
    Though scattered be the brain-realms where it’s wrought;
    The qualia of sense-experience shine,
    While seamless flows the change that time has brought.

    (Perfect Unity!)

    How can this ghost of thought move flesh and bone,
    When neural deed is done and verdict known
    Before awareness breaks upon our shore?
    The answer in time’s sequence lies alone.

    (Nah, it doesn’t; the brain does it)

    Yet Consciousness brings gifts beyond mere scheme
    Of reflex-action’s automatic stream:
    Flexibility to shape reaction’s course,
    And Focus sharp on what we vital deem.

    (Exclusion)

    It grants Evaluation’s weighted scale,
    Where logic, feeling, neither can quite fail;
    For Survival it opens pathways new,
    Where Complex choices might yet prevail.

    (Evaluation)

    Through Learning’s endless combinations bright,
    We weave perception’s threads in fresh delight;
    Discrimination’s finest differences show
    Which fruits bring health, which hold destruction’s bite.

    (The will is dynamic)

    In Evolution’s grand unfolding play,
    It spurred the Cambrian dawn of nature’s way;
    Made predators grow keen in cunning’s art,
    While prey found newer paths from day to day.

    (The explosion)

    See Beauty bloom in flower’s painted face,
    As plants evolved their pollinator’s grace;
    While minds could ponder action’s consequence
    Before commitment to time’s embrace.

    (Actionizing)

    Reality stands firm beyond our sight,
    Our senses taking in its waves of light;
    The Brain paints useful faces on these waves—
    Makes color from mere frequency’s delight.

    (Just three proteins in the eye rotate according to
    the amount of the three primary colors)

    When drugs or sleep or trauma’s sudden blow
    Disturb the brain, consciousness sinks below;
    Change neural paths, and mind must follow suit—
    For only from the brain can awareness flow.

    (Consciousness is a brain process reflected)

    We often miss the sea in which we swim,
    Mistaking thought-stream’s contents, fleeting-dim,
    For consciousness itself that bears them all,
    Like water bearing leaves on ocean’s rim.

    (The Sea in which we See)

    Behold Consciousness in all its parts,
    How structured layers form from scattered starts;
    Each distinction clear as mountain streams,
    Yet flowing to one sea of human arts.

    (Distinction par excellance!)

    First mark how Composition builds its throne
    From many elements, not one alone;
    Like letters forming words, then sentences,
    Till meaning rises from the parts well-shown.

    (A kind of consciousness’ alphabet unto literature)

    As bricks and mortar rise to mansion fair,
    So consciousness builds castles in the air;
    Each phenomenal distinction placed
    With architect’s precision, layer by layer.

    (What a filmmaker!)

    Intrinsic next, as personal as breath,
    As intimate as life, as close as death;
    No borrowing this sense of ‘only mine’,
    This ownership no other self can theft.

    (Yours alone)

    Independent it stands, yet bound within,
    Like sovereignty that needs no foreign kin;
    A kingdom of the self, complete and whole,
    Where every thought knows where it should begin.

    (King of the World)

    Then Information flows, precise and clear,
    Each detail rendered faithfully sincere;
    No vague approximations cloud this lens,
    Each particle of thought crystal-clear.

    (Extreme clarity)

    Particular and specific it stays,
    No general musings cloud its focused gaze;
    Like archer’s arrow seeking only one
    Sweet target through perception’s misty haze.

    (Focused)

    Integration weaves its seamless whole
    From scattered threads of being’s varied scroll;
    Though brain-regions far and wide contribute,
    One unified experience is their goal.

    (All for one)

    No longer can this wholeness be reduced
    To simpler parts, once unity’s produced;
    Like water from its elements combined,
    A new thing altogether is induced.

    (True emergence? Or Fundamental?)

    Exclusivity sets boundaries clean:
    No more, no less than what is truly seen;
    Each conscious moment perfectly defined,
    No fuzzy edges blur what contents mean.

    (Nothing extra)

    See how Mental Unity holds its ground,
    Though neural sources scatter all around;
    Like many instruments in symphony,
    Creating one magnificent sound.

    (The Magnificat!)

    The brain’s divided regions all conspire
    To forge one field of consciousness entire;
    Though specialists in different corners toil,
    One unified experience they inspire.

    (What a symphony!)

    Then Qualia paint their colors rich and strange,
    The felt-sense qualities that ever range
    From red of rose to taste of morning dew,
    As consciousness gives meaning to each change.

    (Physical neurological to experiential qualia)

    These qualities that only minds can know—
    The sunset’s beauty, coffee’s warming glow—
    Are consciousness’s artist’s palette pure,
    From which all lived experience must flow.

    (All one ever encounters is the inside of the head)

    Continuity then stitches time’s swift stream
    Into one flowing, ever-changing dream;
    Though moments pass like birds across the sky,
    Their passage forms one motion, or would seem.

    (A great video editor)

    No gaps appear within this seamless flow,
    Though consciousness must come and sometimes go;
    Like movie frames run swift before our eyes,
    Create illusion of continuous show.

    (Very high sight resolution, at least in the center)

    Each aspect thus contributes to the whole
    Of consciousness’s grand, mysterious role:
    Compositional, Intrinsic, Informed,
    Integrated, Exclusive in its soul.

    (Therein lies it nature)

    Together these create the mirror bright
    In which the world reveals itself to sight;
    Though physics charts the cosmos vast and deep,
    Consciousness alone can hold its light.

    (Ah, light within a dark head)

    The brain translates raw reality’s face
    To sound and color, taste, and touch’s grace;
    Consciousness mirrors brain-activity,
    As neural patterns weave through time and space.

    (It paints a better more useful face)

    From nerve to spine to brain’s encrypted code,
    Consciousness threads throughout its whole abode;
    A way to act within imagination,
    Before committing to action’s road.

    (From the nerve spindles everywhere…)

    While Physics charts external cause and rule,
    Consciousness exists as nature’s jewel:
    Intrinsic, whole, composed of many parts,
    Yet unified beyond reduction’s tool.

    (Seems irreducible, perhaps fundamental)

    It serves distinction’s evolutionary need,
    Though causing naught save in its own thought-deed,
    For being, not for doing, is its realm,
    While intelligence guides action’s seed.

    (It appears to exist only for itself)

    The posterior cortex holds the key,
    For only here must consciousness still be;
    With feedback loops that bind the fragments whole,
    Creating unity that lets us see.

    (Feedback ‘magic’)

    This wholeness forms consciousness direct and clear,
    A process fundamental, nature’s peer;
    Or else it speaks the brain’s symbolic tongue,
    Translating neural code to meaning near.

    (Are qualia the language of the mind?)

    This Whole speaks outward, sharing mind with mind,
    While brain-states learn what consciousness designed;
    So subconscious regions can then know
    The unified awareness thus defined.

    (A global broadcast?)

    The brain’s grand theatre stages its display,
    While consciousness arrives too late to sway
    The plot already written, yet feels real—
    Director of a film from yesterday.

    (Seems to be happening live)

    And thus we end where first our tale began:
    In brain’s deep halls where consciousness first ran,
    A process bound in flesh, yet seeming free,
    Reflecting on itself since we began.

    (Consciousness evolved)

    Consider now Time’s arrow and its flight:
    How consciousness lags reality’s height;
    While neural networks race beneath our view,
    We float upon their wake in conscious light.

    (Skiing like)

    Each moment that we think we’re choosing new
    Has already been settled through and through;
    The brain decided ere we knew to choose,
    Our feeling of free will a time-skewed clue.

    (The fixed will of the instant)

    Like ripples spreading on a neural pond,
    Each thought-wave touches shores that lie beyond;
    The conscious mind may claim to rule alone,
    Yet unconscious depths hold wisdom’s bond.

    (In the repertoire)

    In dreams we glimpse this truth most clear of all,
    When consciousness lets its firm barriers fall;
    The hidden brain spins tales we think we guide,
    While neural pattern-makers weave our thrall.

    (As well was from brain ‘noise’)

    Mark how the senses each their tale relate:
    Sight, sound, and touch combine to integrate;
    Yet consciousness binds all to unity,
    Though scattered brain-realms must collaborate.

    (The orchestra plays as one)

    What seems a single stream of thought sublime
    Is orchestra of brain-realms keeping time;
    Each player adds its note to consciousness,
    Till harmony emerges from their chime.

    (Conducting itself like a band)

    When damage strikes some portion of the brain,
    See how consciousness shifts its domain;
    Like water finding new paths to the sea,
    Neural plasticity rebuilds again.

    (Consciousness directly reflects the brain)

    In meditation’s deep and centered space,
    We sometimes catch consciousness face-to-face;
    The watcher and the watched at last revealed
    As brain-processes moving through their grace.

    (Remove thoughts; meditation is not what you think!)

    Each qualia—each taste of wine or tea,
    Each sunset’s glow, each song’s sweet melody—
    Emerges from the brain’s translation true
    Of raw reality we cannot see.

    (Phenomena from Noumena)

    The hardest problem still remains unsolved:
    How neural fire to conscious thought evolved;
    What bridge connects the objective brain
    With subjective experience resolved?

    (The Hard Problem)

    Perhaps we seek a ghost that never was,
    Questioning consciousness and all its laws;
    When brain-process and awareness merge as one,
    The mystery dissolves without a cause.

    (Basic property?)

    Yet still we feel the weight of being here,
    Of knowing that we know, of thinking clear;
    Though consciousness arrives a moment late,
    Its presence makes our human nature dear.

    (Second level view of first level thought)

    When Memory opens up its golden door,
    Consciousness weaves past moments as before;
    Yet what we think we purely recollect
    Is reconstruction from the neural store.

    (Prions hold memory stable, yet it can fade/change)

    Each reminiscence that we hold so true
    Is fabricated, mixed, and born anew;
    The brain invents to fill each memory’s gaps,
    While consciousness presents the seamless view.

    (Can change from being accessed)

    In Sleep’s dark realm, see consciousness transform,
    As neural patterns shift from waking norm;
    Dreams rise like bubbles from the depths below,
    While reason’s captain sleeps amid the storm.

    (The brain is not fully functioning)

    The Child’s mind shows consciousness unfold,
    As neural networks worth their weight in gold
    Build representations ever more complex,
    Till self-awareness blooms from patterns old.

    (Linear details scanned; overall view done in parallel)

    Mark how Attention’s spotlight roams the stage,
    Selecting what consciousness will engage;
    While countless neural processes compete,
    One winner claims the mind’s illumined page.

    (Many simpleton ‘minds’ competing for attention)

    The Social Brain evolved this conscious art
    To model others’ minds and take their part;
    Through consciousness we simulate their thoughts,
    And navigate the human heart.

    (Empathy)

    Some say the Self is but a useful tale
    That consciousness spins like a ship’s bright sail;
    A story that the brain tells to itself,
    To chart a course through life’s tempestuous gale.

    (Having future is foremost: as survival)

    When altered states through drug or trance descend,
    See how reality and dreamtime blend;
    As neural patterns shift their normal course,
    Consciousness follows where these changes tend.

    (Faithful mirror of the brain)

    The Language centers weave their grammar’s spell,
    Creating inner voices that can tell
    The stories of our consciousness stream,
    Though deeper currents run beneath the well.

    (The currents’ result appears as being current)

    Consider how Decision’s moment flows:
    The brain computes before awareness knows;
    Yet consciousness can help set parameters
    By which subconscious wisdom makes its shows.

    (More, as meaning rumination)

    Like fractals building patterns ever new,
    Each conscious moment holds a nested view;
    The brain creates complexity from simple rules,
    As awareness emerges from the crew.

    (But a very complex process)

    In Evolution’s laboratory vast,
    Consciousness proved its worth in ages past;
    For those who could model future scenes
    Found better paths than those who moved too fast.

    (Good, but reactive people may need to slow down)

    The Mirror test reveals the self-aware,
    As consciousness learns itself to declare;
    Yet even this awareness comes too late,
    The brain already knowing who is there.

    (Only ever the just past is shown; no present)

    Some philosophers would consciousness deny,
    Call it illusion, or a useful lie;
    But process needs no substance to be real—
    Ask any wave that moves beneath the sky.

    (Daniel Dennett)

    The Mystery remains, yet science shows
    How brain-process to conscious knowing flows;
    Each year we map more territories true
    Of how awareness comes and goes.

    (Soon, others can read your mind)

    Perhaps no final answer we shall find
    To bridge the gap ‘tween matter and the mind;
    Yet in the seeking lies our nature’s crown:
    Consciousness studying its own kind.

    (Information is dual as both matter and mind?)

    When Artificial Minds begin to rise,
    Will consciousness emerge before our eyes?
    Or will there only be a zombie’s dance,
    Raw computation wearing thought’s disguise?

    (Artificial Inteligence)

    For how can we be certain what is felt
    By other minds where consciousness has dwelt?
    The hard problem doubles when we seek
    To know if silicon can awareness melt.

    (Functionalism)

    In Meditation’s depths some masters claim
    That consciousness transcends the mortal frame;
    Yet every altered state that they describe
    Still needs a brain to light awareness’ flame.

    (Actually, quietude in ID center and body boundary)

    The Quantum theorists would consciousness bind
    To wave collapse and measurement combined;
    Yet macro-scale coherence can’t survive
    In neural warmth of any human mind.

    (Need a brain freeze from eating ice cream)

    Some see consciousness spread through all that is,
    Pan-psychic dreams of universal bliss;
    But process needs complexity to rise,
    And rocks hold not the patterns consciousness miss.

    (Electron thinks: which way should I go?)

    When Artists shape new visions from the void,
    Is consciousness the master they employed?
    Or does it merely watch the neural dance
    Of creativity otherwise deployed?

    (Are we the dancer or the danced upon?)
    (What should I do? The universe does you!)

    The Moral sense that guides us right from wrong,
    Does consciousness conduct that ancient song?
    Or does it only witness what arose
    From neural circuits judging all along?

    (Nature and nurture)

    Consider too how consciousness must grow
    Through childhood’s dawn, as neural patterns flow;
    Each year brings richer awareness to the mind,
    As brain-complexity continues to show.

    (Teen-age brains may show some temporary ‘insanity’)

    Some species share consciousness with our kind,
    While others leave awareness far behind;
    The octopus thinks thoughts we cannot know,
    While beetles march with simpler states assigned.

    (Got to roll that dung!)

    In Cultures spread across Earth’s fertile face,
    Each finds in consciousness a different grace;
    Some see it as the cosmic force divine,
    While others mark its neural time and place.

    (A soul?)

    When Lovers meet and consciousness combines,
    Do qualia cross over normal lines?
    Or does each brain remain forever sealed,
    While empathy suggests deeper designs?

    (Yes)

    The Future holds more mysteries in store,
    As neuroscience opens door by door;
    Will consciousness reveal its secrets all,
    Or keep some riddles hidden evermore?

    (All will be revealed in time)

    When Brain-Computer Interfaces bloom,
    Will consciousness expand beyond its room?
    Or will it stay confined to brain-process,
    While external aids play progress’s tune?

    (We will become as Large Language models)

    In Aging’s slow descent we sometimes find
    That consciousness grows dim as neurons bind;
    Yet wisdom often deepens with the years,
    As if awareness grows more refined.

    (The wise old man or woman)

    The Social Web that links all human minds
    Creates a meta-consciousness that binds;
    Yet each brain holds its private theater still,
    While sharing what the conscious mind assigns.

    (Memes)

    Perhaps in Time we’ll map the neural code
    That gives rise to consciousness’ episode;
    Yet knowing how may never tell us why
    Awareness lights the brain’s abode.

    (Quantum mental fields?)
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    For my philosophical purposes, I further define Consciousness as human subjective experience. That's the only type of awareness we forum posters have experienced first hand. I am skeptical that "everything", including atoms, consciously experience their existence.Gnomon
    My position is that the phrase "consciously experience" is like "visually see". But my guess is you don't mean it that way. I would guess you mean something like knowingly, intellectually, or mindfully experience. Which, of course, humans do. But because we have mental abilities to be conscious of, not because those abilities are consciousness.

    I've read various accounts of Maxwell's demon. I don't understand why things I see as problems are not. From The Demon in the Machine, by Paul Davies:
    Maxwell assumed that the demon and the shutter are perfectly functioning devices with no friction or need for a power source. This is admittedly an idealization, but there is no known principle preventing an arbitrarily close approach to such mechanical perfection. Remember, friction is a macroscopic property where ordered motion, e.g. a ball rolling along the floor, is converted to disordered motion – heat – in which the ball’s energy is dissipated among trillions of tiny particles. But on a molecular scale, all is tiny. Friction doesn’t exist. — Paul Davies
    How can you open and close the shutter without using energy?

    Aside from that, the molecules are bouncing around the box, being sorted into one side or the other. But they're not going to continue bouncing around at the same speed forever, are they? Demon will be sorting slower and slower molecules?
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    But our consciousness is about far more than just our physical bodies.
    — Patterner

    But without body, our consciousness evaporates into nothing. Our brain falls asleep every night, and when it does, the whole world of ours disappears into nothing too until bodies waking up in the morning. Bodies keep on living without conscious minds, but no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from.
    Corvus
    I agree. The mind turns off at times, like deep sleep or general anesthesia.
  • Pieter R van Wyk
    62
    "... consciousness is the ability of a functional brain, capable of abstract thought, to manage itself. We could agree that the human brain manages the human homeostatic processes, organs and all sensory functions of the human body. This human brain also has the ability to manage all our responses to our environment. These responses include our responses to our physical environment (our understanding and response to the effects of the Laws of Nature) as well as our political environment (our understanding and response to the Rules of Man perceived). Surely, all of this requires some self-management from the brain itself." p195. How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    I agree. The mind turns off at times, like deep sleep or general anesthesia.Patterner

    I am even thinking that mind could be physical in its nature, i.e. mind is not different existence from our bodies. Because mind can only exist when body exists as living agent. Hence body is the precondition of mind, and mind is actually a part of body.

    Just because we cannot see it or touch it, it is not physical or material? That sounds too simple.
    Think of your mobile phone. Your phone rings. Someone is calling you, and the phone rings. Do we see anything coming in through your window in the sky? Nope. Radio waves are invisible, inaudible and untouchable, but it still travels through space connecting folks communications. The radio waves can be measured and captured via the device called frequency counter.

    Could mind be some kind of existence like radio waves? Our senses feed the information received via our sense organs into the brain, and brain perceives the external world, feels pains and pleasures, thinks and reasons. Just like what happens in the computer processors.
    Mind could be some type of electrical processing in the brain, which is totally physical and biological? No?
  • Pieter R van Wyk
    62

    I agree with you:
    "Who am 'I' and what is the relation between mind and body? According to my understanding, there exists a specific, changeable state of some components in my brain. The perception of this specific component is called by some, my mind. This mind provides a perception that I am me. Conversely, my body, as well as its being, is perceived by some component in my brain. So, my body is telling my mind that I am, in fact me. As a result of evolution, I have this wonderful capability of having a perception of the states of some of my components and a few other capabilities as well." p185 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    For any unit to be conscious as a unit, it must be a unit processing energy. Arrangements of particles must mean something other than the arrangements of particles that they are, and they must be processing that information. So DNA, the beginning of life, is also the beginning of groups of particles that are conscious as a unit.
    — Patterner

    It now seems like you're not actually saying "everything" is conscious. That's perfectly fine, since consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious. It just feels... different from what I read you saying before (partly due to the rock example, no doubt).
    Dawnstorm
    That's not what I mean. The key is that I don't think consciousness and thinking/mental activity are related. Human consciousness is the experience of thinking/mental activity. Things that don't have thinking/mental activity, obviously, cannot experience it. But they experienced what they are.

    What do you have in mind by "consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious"? What is the alternative?


    There may be "things" that don't appear to me as a unit that are conscious. They would be units in themselves, but not for me.Dawnstorm
    Yes. My criteria for "unit" is something that process information. I'm sure there is a lot more information processing going on than I recognized.

    going to read the rest of your post a couple more times try to get a better handle on your idea.
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    But without body, our consciousness evaporates into nothing. Our brain falls asleep every night, and when it does, the whole world of ours disappears into nothing too until bodies waking up in the morning. Bodies keep on living without conscious minds, but no conscious mind can exist without the living body which it could be emerged from.Corvus
    I agree. Information processing - thinking - is a physical thing. I just posted this on response to :
    The physical is things like photons* hitting retina, being converted into electrical signals that go to the brain, trigger a storage mechanism containing a similar pattern of photons* hitting the retina at some point in the past during which the body sustained damage, triggering ..., on and on, and the body moves a certain way that avoids taking damage again.

    Is that a description of a mental event?
    Patterner
    I believe that is a description of a mental event. Photons, vibrations in the air, etc., interact with our sensory apparatus. it is converted into another form - my electric signals. These signals represent the original. That's meaning. Information. That information is processed in the brain (for things that have a brain), and action results. That is thinking. Again, from Journey of the Mind: How Thinking Emerged from Chaos, by Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam:
    A mind is a physical system that converts sensations into action. A mind takes in a set of inputs from its environment and transforms them into a set of environment-impacting outputs that, crucially, influence the welfare of its body. This process of changing inputs into outputs—of changing sensation into useful behavior—is thinking, the defining activity of a mind. — Ogas & Gaddam

    But that is not consciousness. Thinking is a physical process. Thinking can be a more complex physical process than most other physical processes (although not necessarily), but that's what it is.

    Consciousness is subjective experience. The subjective experience of this particular kind of physical process is what has usually been considered consciousness. I disagree. I think consciousness is the subjective experience of anything, and this just happens to be what we humans subjectively experience.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    "Who am 'I' and what is the relation between mind and body? According to my understanding, there exists a specific, changeable state of some components in my brain.Pieter R van Wyk

    Could it be the past memory of the individual and reasoning ability in the brain, which tells and confirms the person with the self identity? Past memories and experience of one's life must have been stored in the form of some chemical deposits on the neuron cells in the brain just like computer can store data into its ROM and RAM and Hard drives. When search function is performed, some central processing mechanism in the brain must be able to pick out the relevant memory and place them on the reasoning organ in the brain (central processor in case of computers), from which it will be able to tell and confirm their relevance and accuracy for the given search functions performed under the request for the queries.

    One's past memory can be wiped out or transformed into fantasies and illusions by physical traumas or chemical injections (by taking drugs or medical substances), which proves mind is matter which are subject to be changed or destroyed by the physical causes.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    I agree. Information processing - thinking - is a physical thing. I just posted this on response to ↪Manuel
    :
    Patterner

    :up:
  • Dawnstorm
    330
    What do you have in mind by "consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious"? What is the alternative?Patterner

    Fundamental =/= Omnipresent

    If CON = Present, CON = Fundamental
    If CON =/= Present, N/A

    Also, I think the term "everything" is problematic in the sense that what appears to us as a unit may not be conscious, and what is conscious may not appear to us as a unit. Thus "everything" is necessarily undefined in this thread. The best we can do is permutate whatever units make sense to us and assume that every permutation is potentially conscious even if viewed as a unit it doesn't creat sense for us. (So, for example, not only I am conscious, but every hair on my head is, too. Not only every hair on my head, but every random (to me) pair of hairs on my head; every random (to me) set of three hairs... and so on. All those consciousnesses fan out as a reality each and overlap. (The "potential" here isn't a potential in the sense of a "potential energy"; it's just a measure of our ignorance.)
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    Also, I think the term "everything" is problematic in the sense that what appears to us as a unit may not be consciousDawnstorm
    Yes, it may be a unit only in our eyes. A rock, a stop sign, a cruise ship, a cloud, anything. those are not units in the way I mean, because there is no information processing taking place anywhere. Nevertheless, every particle that makes them up is experiencing. A particle is not experiencing thinking, intelligence, or anything mental. its existence, and therefore what it experiences, is purely physical.
  • Gnomon
    4.2k
    My position is that the phrase "consciously experience" is like "visually see". But my guess is you don't mean it that way. I would guess you mean something like knowingly, intellectually, or mindfully experience. Which, of course, humans do. But because we have mental abilities to be conscious of, not because those abilities are consciousness.Patterner
    Yes. My information-theoretic thesis says that human Consciousness is just one of many forms of Energy-transfer and Information-sharing. Atoms are known to send & receive Energy, which causes changes in their physical systems. For example, an electron absorbs energy from a photon, and then jumps to the next higher orbit. That physical change (transformation) is a Bit of Information.

    On the macro level of reality, the emergence of Consciousness in an animal brain may result from billions of such lower-level information exchanges. But the phenomenon of Sentient & Self Awareness has novel holistic*3 qualities that don't apply on the sub-atomic scale. Emergence theory reveals that complex systems can exhibit properties and behaviors that are not detectable in their individual components. One atom may not be aware of anything, but a zillion atoms in a human brain may exhibit the subjective qualitative experience of Knowing and Knowing that you know*1.

    And one of those mental novelties is the ability to reflect inwardly: to know your own "mental abilities". Some Materialistic scientists seem to be unable to see (metaphorically), by reflection, the observer (Self) in an experimental system. Consciousness is not an elemental thing, but an emergent process : a function of brain activity. Hence, while Consciousness may be emergent, Causation (energy ; EnFormAction) is fundamental*2. :nerd:


    *1. Human consciousness refers to the subjective awareness of our own thoughts, feelings, sensations, and surroundings, essentially the state of being aware of our existence and the world around us. It's a complex and multifaceted phenomenon that encompasses various aspects, from basic wakefulness and sensory perception to more intricate cognitive processes like self-awareness and the ability to reflect on our own mental states. While there isn't a universally agreed-upon definition, consciousness is generally understood as a dynamic process rather than a static entity.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=human+consciousness

    *2. EnFormAction : Literally, the act of enforming --- to fashion, to create, to cause.
    # Metaphorically, the Will of G*D flowing through the world to cause evolutionary change in a teleological direction.
    # Immaterial Information is almost always defined in terms of its physical context or material container. (e.g. mathematical DNA code in chemical form)
    # Raw En-Form-Action has few, if any, definable perceivable qualities. By itself, Information is colorless, odorless, and formless. Unlike colorless, odorless, and formless water though, Information gives physical form to whatever is defined by it.
    # Like DNA, Information shapes things via internal rather than external constraints. Like the Laws of Physics, Information is the motivating & constraining force of physical reality. Like Energy, Information is the universal active agent of the cosmos. Like Spinoza's God, Information appears to be the single substance of the whole World.
    # Information is the divine Promethean power of transformation. Information is Generic in the sense of generating all forms from a formless pool of possibility : the Platonic Forms.

    https://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page29.html
    Note --- "G*D" is a functional concept, not a religious belief.

    *3. Holism ; Holon :
    Philosophically, a whole system is a collection of parts (holons) that possesses properties not found in the parts. That something extra is an Emergent quality that was latent (unmanifest) in the parts. For example, when atoms of hydrogen & oxygen gases combine in a specific ratio, the molecule has properties of water, such as wetness, that are not found in the gases. A Holon is something that is simultaneously a whole and a part — A system of entangled things that has a function in a hierarchy of systems.
    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html
  • Manuel
    4.3k
    The physical is things like photons* hitting retina, being converted into electrical signals that go to the brain, trigger a storage mechanism containing a similar pattern of photons* hitting the retina at some point in the past during which the body sustained damage, triggering ..., on and on, and the body moves a certain way that avoids taking damage again.

    Is that a description of a mental event?
    Patterner

    So, it's physics? That's what the physical is? That seems to constrain things too much, there are too many phenomena that cannot be explained with physics.

    As for photons hitting a retina being a description of a mental event. Absolutely. That's how we discover the photon hitting the eye - what else could we do? There's no alternative that I know of.

    That's a description of mental event under specific, controlled circumstances, an act of abstraction to discover what is relevant to a theory of vision.
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    I am even thinking that mind could be physical in its nature, i.e. mind is not different existence from our bodies. Because mind can only exist when body exists as living agent. Hence body is the precondition of mind, and mind is actually a part of body.Corvus

    Why are brains conscious but hearts and livers aren't? Why are only some brain processes associated with consciousness? If the mind is identical to the brain, and I'm picturing a purple flower in my mind's eye, wouldn't that entail there's a purple flower in my brain? If minds are physical, then by studying someone's brain, I should be able to gain access to the contents of their mind, right?
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    Why are brains conscious but hearts and livers aren't?RogueAI
    Good point, but a daft question. It is like asking why tables and chairs don't work as phones or computers? They are not designed / made to do those jobs.

    Why are only some brain processes associated with consciousness?RogueAI
    This sounds like a question for the biologist and neurologist.


    If the mind is identical to the brain, and I'm picturing a purple flower in my mind's eye, wouldn't that entail there's a purple flower in my brain?RogueAI
    A purple flower and an image or representation of the purple flower is not the same existence.

    If minds are physical, then by studying someone's brain, I should be able to gain access to the contents of their mind, right?RogueAI
    Not all physical objects are replaceable and transparent to our understanding. Many physical objects such as radio waves, atoms, cells and the black holes, space ... etc are not things that we can fully understand what they are. Many of them are also presupposed and imagined objects from the effects or events in the world.

    We can read the radio waves on the frequency counter, we still don't know what they are. We know how to generate, transmit and receive the radio waves, but we don't see or hear them direct. We only know the audio data they carry in them, but the actual existence of the waves are unknown.

    Likewise, we don't know how our brain works as they do, and brain is not replaceable. Only thing we know is that conscious mind cannot exist without working brain. Hence it is very likely physical state in its nature. There is no such thing as conscious mind as mental existence.
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    What do you have in mind by "consciouness being fundamental doesn't imply everything being conscious"? What is the alternative?
    — Patterner

    Fundamental =/= Omnipresent
    Dawnstorm
    I forgot this part when I replied. Here's what I'm thinking...

    1) Consciousness is fundamental, not emergent from the physical.*

    2) Therefore, something non-physical is also at work.

    3) There's no reason to think matter everywhere in the universe that is arranged like us would not have the same subjective experience that we have.

    4) The non-physical aspect of reality that gives us our subjective experience is doing the same everywhere in the universe.

    if that's correct, I think it would have an effect everywhere. As opposed to it being everywhere, but being inactive unless certain conditions are present.


    *I'll add this quote to these. From Donald Hoffman's The Case Against Reality Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes, when he was talking to Francis Crick:
    “Can you explain,” I asked, “how neural activity causes conscious experiences, such as my experience of the color red?” “No,” he said. “If you could make up any biological fact you want,” I persisted, “can you think of one that would let you solve this problem?” “No,” he replied, but added that we must pursue research in neuroscience until some discovery reveals the solution. — Donald Hoffman
    We don't have a clue as to how consciousness could emerge from the physical. It's like asking how we could build a house out of liquid water. Worse, in fact, because at least houses and water are both physical things.
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    Why are brains conscious but hearts and livers aren't?
    — RogueAI
    Good point, but a daft question. It is like asking why tables and chairs don't work as phones or computers? They are not designed / made to do those jobs.
    Corvus

    What is it about the brain then that makes it "work" for consciousness? Both brains and livers have cellular activity. Why is the brain's cellular activity suited for consciousness? Information processing? But then we're at my next question which is,

    Why are only some brain processes associated with consciousness?
    — RogueAI
    This sounds like a question for the biologist and neurologist.
    Corvus

    And what do biologists and neurologists say about that?

    If the mind is identical to the brain, and I'm picturing a purple flower in my mind's eye, wouldn't that entail there's a purple flower in my brain?
    — RogueAI
    A purple flower and an image or representation of the purple flower is not the same existence.
    Corvus


    If the mind is physical, then when I picture a purple flower, that experience must be entirely physical. But the mental image/representation of the flower is still purple—subjectively, vividly purple—so something in the brain must literally be purple in the same way, not just represent it or correlate with it. Saying it's just a "representation" sidesteps the issue: if minds are physical, then representations are physical, and physical things have physical properties. But there's no purple anywhere in the brain—just electrochemical activity. So either consciousness isn't just physical, or you need to point to the literal purple in my head. Or you need to say that I'm not REALLY seeing purple in my mind's eye. I'm mistaken in some way.

    If minds are physical, then by studying someone's brain, I should be able to gain access to the contents of their mind, right?
    — RogueAI
    Not all physical objects are replaceable and transparent to our understanding. Many physical objects such as radio waves, atoms, cells and the black holes, space ... etc are not things that we can fully understand what they are. Many of them are also presupposed and imagined objects from the effects or events in the world.

    We can read the radio waves on the frequency counter, we still don't know what they are. We know how to generate, transmit and receive the radio waves, but we don't see or hear them direct. We only know the audio data they carry in them, but the actual existence of the waves are unknown.

    Likewise, we don't know how our brain works as they do, and brain is not replaceable. Only thing we know is that conscious mind cannot exist without working brain. Hence it is very likely physical state in its nature. There is no such thing as conscious mind as mental existence.
    Corvus


    I'm not asking whether we currently understand the brain, I’m asking what should be possible if the mind is entirely physical. If thoughts, memories, and mental images are nothing more than brain states, then in principle, a complete physical analysis of your brain should reveal exactly what you're thinking, just like analyzing a hard drive tells us what's stored on it. Saying the brain is mysterious or not fully understood today is just an appeal to ignorance. Complete knowledge of a person's brain should equal complete knowledge of their mind, right?
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    Saying the brain is mysterious or not fully understood today is just an appeal to ignorance. Complete knowledge of a person's brain should equal complete knowledge of their mind, right?RogueAI

    When you open your hard drive, and look into all the parts inside the drive, you will see nothing which even remotely resembles the data you stored in it.  You will see some electronic parts, capacitors, motors, transistors, chips and connectors on the magnetic platter.

    Likewise, if you open your brain, and look into it, you will see nothing which even remotely resembles your feelings, images, memories and sensations or consciousness.  You will see a grey matter / organ full of veins and body mass with the neurons inside.

    To see your data from the hard drive, you must run some software which talks to your hd, and transfers the data in bits which are electrical signals into the screen.

    Likewise for your brain to present you with the memories, feelings and thoughts and consciousness, it must be in your body as it has been for many years living and learning, communicating with the full sense organs in your body.  Without that physical setup and symbiotic workings in your whole body, you will have no mind.   

    Mind is just a reflection or expression or perceptual state of your own physical bodily state.  When your physical body is no longer existent, your mind will also evaporate into thin air.  
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    When your physical body is no longer existent, your mind will also evaporate into thin air.Corvus
    Your mind will be gone pretty much the moment you die.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    Your mind will be gone pretty much the moment you die.Patterner

    I would imagine so. My mind dies every night when I fall asleep too. But it resurrects every morning thanks to living body waking up. But when body gets old, and no longer waking up, mind can never resurrect.
  • flannel jesus
    2.9k
    are you the guy who listened to the Annika Harris audio thing with me?
  • flannel jesus
    2.9k
    I think he wants debates within panpsychism. Which is valid. "If we start with the assumption that pansychism is true, where does that lead us?" I think that's fair. I'm not a panpsychist myself but I think that kind of approach is worth having. It's an exploration of an idea.
  • Patterner
    1.6k
    ↪Patterner are you the guy who listened to the Annika Harris audio thing with me?flannel jesus
    Yep.


    ↪SophistiCat I think he wants debates within panpsychism. Which is valid. "If we start with the assumption that pansychism is true, where does that lead us?" I think that's fair. I'm not a panpsychist myself but I think that kind of approach is worth having. It's an exploration of an idea.flannel jesus
    Thank you. It seems some would forbid such discussions.
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    When you open your hard drive, and look into all the parts inside the drive, you will see nothing which even remotely resembles the data you stored in it.  You will see some electronic parts, capacitors, motors, transistors, chips and connectors on the magnetic platter.Corvus

    Your analogy actually undercuts your claim. You’re assuming the data on the hard drive is something different from the hard drive itself, that the 1s and 0s, the meaningful content, are not identical to the spinning platters or silicon circuits. That’s dualism in disguise: form vs. substance, software vs. hardware. But if you believe minds are purely physical, you don’t get that luxury. You can’t say “the data’s just encoded in the structure” and then duck the challenge of showing where, in the brain’s physical matter, the actual mental content exists.

    ETA: If an alien asked "what is pain?" would a purely physical description of pain be sufficient to answer that question?

    ETA2: If physicalism is right, then a book is just ink on paper; patterns of squiggles. So a person with total physical knowledge of a book (ink chemistry, paper fibers, locations of atoms, etc.) should, in theory, know everything about the book.

    But now suppose this person doesn’t speak English. They gain complete physical knowledge of the book, but they don’t know it’s about Sherlock Holmes. Later, they learn English, reread the same book, and realize it’s a detective story.

    Did they gain new knowledge? Yes. But there was no change in the book’s physical structure, and no change in their physical knowledge of it. The change was in their understanding.

    So again, where did this new knowledge of the book come from? Not from the ink. Not from the paper. Not from new physical facts. The “aboutness,” the meaning, seems to exist in a different category not reducible to physical properties alone.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    So again, where did this new knowledge of the book come from? Not from the ink. Not from the paper. Not from new physical facts. The “aboutness,” the meaning, seems to exist in a different category not reducible to physical properties alone.RogueAI

    You seem to be digressing into books from the original topic conscious mind. But think again. If there was nothing in the world, i.e. no paper, no ink, no humans, no physical objects whatsoever (imagine a place like Mars - a field with just rocks and hills), can a story of Sherlock Holmes exist? Whatever idea or story it might be, it needs to be in the form of physical media, DVD or ebook or physical book for it to exist. With no physical objects to contain ideas or books or music, nothing can exist.

    In that sense, they are all some form of physical objects. Ideas, minds and consciousness or whatever abstract objects you might be thinking, talking or imagining, they are in some form of physical existence - they need to be read, spoken or played by the physical beings and instruments. They might be different category of physical objects which are invisible, odourless and silent. But they are all some form of physical existence in nature and origin.

    There is no such a thing called pain. You have your biological body which feels the sensation of pain when hit by some hard object. You call it "pain" when no such thing exists in the whole universe. It is just the state of your body cells with neurons which sent some electrical signals into your brain, and from your education and upbringing and customs, habits and cultural influence, you scream "ouch", and utter the sentence "I have pain." or "It is bloody painful."
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