From an external point of view, cognition is private and indirect. From an internal point of view, cognition is public and direct. So Husserl and Descartes can be both semantically correct, provided that we don't mix their postulates and apply them in different contexts. — sime
That bothers me since it contradicts physicalism since there can be physical things that cannot be known, even in principle. Science cannot render to a non-bat, even in principle, what it's like to be a bat. So I would prefer a different definition. — noAxioms
Materialism typically carries a premise that material is fundamental, hence my reluctance to use the term. — noAxioms
People have also questioned about how eyes came into being, as perhaps an argument for ID. ID, like dualism, posits magic for the gaps, but different magic, where 'magic is anything outside of naturalism. Problem is, anytime some new magic is accepted, it becomes by definition part of naturalism. Hypnosis is about as good an example as I can come up with. Meteorites is another. Science for a long time rejected the possibility of rocks falling from the sky. They're part of naturalism now. — noAxioms
Agree. — noAxioms
There is no indication that in principle we cannot someday model all our own behaviors and reports through computer models. I think even just looking at AI now indicates that there isn't really a conceivable limit on what they can do given enough power and the right inputs, which is what you might expect from something which is Turing complete: i.e. they can compute anything in principle. — Apustimelogist
Sure we do. Q3 is easy. The ball-catching robot was one. A fly evading a swat is another. If one is searching for a model, you start simple and work your way up to something as complex as how our experience works. — noAxioms
↪Joshs
I mean, none of this has any relevance to any points I am making. Obviously, to artificially recreate a human brain to acceptable approximation, you need to construct this computational system with the kinds of inputs, kinds of architectures, capabilities, whatever, that a human does. I am not making any arguments based on specific assumptions about specific computing systems, just on what is in principle possible. — Apustimelogist
LLMs do not perform any tasks of their own, they perform our tasks. It would be better to say that they do not really do anything at all. Thus, we should not treat LLMs as agents. And since LLMs are not agents, let alone epistemic ones, they are in no position to do or know anything.
The map does not know the way home, and the abacus is not clever at arithmetic. It takes knowledge to devise and use such models, but the models themselves have no knowledge. Not because they are ignorant, but because they are models: that is to say, tools. They do not navi-gate or calculate, and neither do they have destinations to reach or debts to pay. Humans use them for these epistemic pur-poses. LLMs have more in common with the map or abacus than with the people who design and use them as instruments. It is the tool creator and user, not the tool, who has knowledge.
I will say bluntly that no machine we invent will do what we do, which is to think. — Joshs
and they operate according to algorithms (programmed by us) just like mechanical calculators. — boundless
All their activities can be explained by saying that they just do what they are programmed for. — boundless
I can accept that.'The hard problem is Q2 and it is legitimate for science to want to know how a neural net can have experiences. — Mijin
It means that all energy and particles and whatnot obey physical law, which yes, pretty much describes relations. That's circular, and thus poor. It asserts that this description is closed, not interfered with by entities not considered physical. That's also a weak statement since if it was ever shown that matter had mental properties, those properties would become natural properties, and thus part of physicalism.OK. So what is 'physical' in your view? IIRC you also agree that physical properties are relational, i.e. they describe how a given physical object relate to/interact with other physical objects. — boundless
That's a philosophical stance, I agree.'Scientistic physicalism' is also inconsistent IMO because, after all, that there is a physical world is not something we discover by doing science.
OK. Not being a realist, I would query what you might mean by that. I suspect (proof would be nice) that mathematical truths are objectively true, and the structure that includes our universe supervenes on those truths. It being true implying that it's real depends on one's definition of 'real', and I find it easier not to worry about that arbitrary designation.Other than 'consciousness' I also believe in the existence of other things that are 'real' but not 'physical'. I am thinking, for instance, of mathematical truths.
Is space and time not physical then? Neither meets your criteria of 'object', but I think I would include them under 'physicalism'. Not all universes have them, and those might have very different definitions of what is physical or material.But it does sometimes clarify at least a meaning that 'physical' can have. For instance, if by matter one means "whatever object exists in a given location of space in a given time", would you agree that this is also what you mean by 'physical'?
Me considering that to be a process of material that has a location, it seems reasonably contained thus, yes. Not a point mind you, but similarly a rock occupies a region of space and time.Has consciousness a 'definite location' in space, for instance? — boundless
Right.' Science cannot make progress with an attitude like that. Most magic is replaced by natural explanations, but occasionally 'magic' explanations are adopted as part of naturalism. I gave a couple examples of that.IMHO you're thinking in rigid categories. Either one is a 'physicalist/naturalist' or one accepts 'magic'.
That seems to be like saying atoms are not real because they're not made of rocks.Maybe there is something that is not 'natural'. Again, mathematical truths seem to me exactly an example of something that is not natural and yet real.
I agree, since those truths hold hopefully in any universe, but our natural laws only work in this one (and similar ones).One would stretch too much the meaning of 'natural/physical' to also include mathematical truths in it. — boundless
I've seen no evidence from anybody that physical interactions cannot account for it. Sure, it's complex and we don't know how it works. But that it cannot work? That's never been demonstrated.why you think that consciousness is 'physical'?
I can argue that people also are this, programmed by ancestors and the natural selection that chose them. The best thinking machines use similar mechanisms to find their own best algorithms, not any algorithm the programmer put there. LLM is indeed not an example of this.At the end of the day all LLMs are very complex computers and they operate according to algorithms (programmed by us) just like mechanical calculators. — boundless
You understand the former because those are quite trivial interactions. Then you jump to something with complexity beyond the current state of science. But not understanding how something works is not any sort of evidence that it isn't still a physical process.I can see how electrons moving from atom to atom is electricity.
I can see how the movement of air molecules is heat and pressure.
I can see how the movement of an object is force: F=ma.
I can see how a fluid, whether liquid or gas, flowing around an object creates lift, which is a factor in flight.
All of those examples are physical activities
I don't see how self-awareness is a physical activity — Patterner
Not only am I not certain about what Descartes knows with certainty, but I actually find the conclusion unlikely. Of course I have access to science that he doesn't.Descartes asks "What can I know with certainty?" while Husserl asks "How does anything come to be given to consciousness at all?" — Joshs
Something Turing complete can compute anything a Turing machine can, which is a lot, but not anything. Technically nothing is Turing complete since a Turing machine has infinite data on which to operate.from something which is Turing complete: i.e. they can compute anything in principle. — Apustimelogist
I like that quote.As Stephen Wolfram notes: “The most powerful AI might not be programmed; it might be cultivated, like a garden of interacting dynamical systems.” — Joshs
Were I to simulate a human, I'd probably not give it inputs at all. Almost all simulations I've run do it stand-alone with no input at all. Logged output for later analysis, but that doesn't affect the simulation. Of course this means your simulated person needs to be in a small environment, also simulated.Obviously, to artificially recreate a human brain to acceptable approximation, you need to construct this computational system with the kinds of inputs, kinds of architectures, capabilities, whatever, that a human does. — Apustimelogist
Noted. How very well justified. Your quote is about LLMs which are mildly pimped out search engines. Compare that do devices which actually appear to think and to innovate. What do you call it if you refuse to apply the term 'think' to what it's doing?I will say bluntly that no machine we invent will do what we do, which is to think. — Joshs
Nice analogy. It explains Chalmers' motivation for creating a problem where there really isn't one.Postmodern philosophy has become like Big Pharma, in that the latter creates ailments to sustain medicinal inventions while the former creates scenarios bordering on superfluous overreach — Mww
And you don't think we do? Our brains are bundles of neurons which all work in very similar ways. You could easily make an argument that we operate in accordance with some very basic kind or family of algorithms recapitulated in many different ways across the brain. — Apustimelogist
As can a human brain. — Apustimelogist
t means that all energy and particles and whatnot obey physical law, which yes, pretty much describes relations. That's circular, and thus poor. It asserts that this description is closed, not interfered with by entities not considered physical. That's also a weak statement since if it was ever shown that matter had mental properties, those properties would become natural properties, and thus part of physicalism.So I guess 'things interact according to the standard model' is about as close as I can get. This whole first/third person thing seems a classical problem, not requiring anything fancy like quantum or relativity theory, even if say chemistry would never work without the underlying mechanisms. A classical simulation of a neural network (with chemistry) would be enough. No need to simulate down to the molecular or even quantum precision. — noAxioms
OK. Not being a realist, I would query what you might mean by that. I suspect (proof would be nice) that mathematical truths are objectively true, and the structure that includes our universe supervenes on those truths. It being true implying that it's real depends on one's definition of 'real', and I find it easier not to worry about that arbitrary designation. — noAxioms
Me considering that to be a process of material that has a location, it seems reasonably contained thus, yes. Not a point mind you, but similarly a rock occupies a region of space and time. — noAxioms
By magic, I mean an explanation that just says something unknown accounts for the observation, never an actual theory about how this alternate explanation might work. To my knowledge, there is no theory anywhere of matter having mental properties, and how it interacts with physical matter in any way. The lack of that is what puts it in the magic category. — noAxioms
I can argue that people also are this, programmed by ancestors and the natural selection that chose them. The best thinking machines use similar mechanisms to find their own best algorithms, not any algorithm the programmer put there. LLM is indeed not an example of this. — noAxioms
No, I don't and you don't here provided sufficient evidence to convince me of your view. Rather, it seems to me that, given the impressive results we have obtained with computers you are concluding that our congition is also algorithmic. — boundless
All living beings seem to have a 'sense' of unity, that there is a distinction between 'self' and 'not self' and so on. They do not just 'do' things. — boundless
The primary disconnect seems to be that no third-person description can convey knowledge of a first-person experience — noAxioms
Maybe so. But not understanding how it works is certainly not any sort of evidence that it is a physical process.But not understanding how something works is not any sort of evidence that it isn't still a physical process. — noAxioms
1. Arrival of Action Potential:
The action potential travels down the axon of the presynaptic neuron and reaches the axon terminal.
2. Calcium Influx:
The arrival of the action potential opens voltage-gated calcium channels at the axon terminal.
Calcium ions (Ca2+) flow into the neuron.
3. Fusion of Synaptic Vesicles:
Ca2+ binds to proteins on the synaptic vesicles, which are small membrane-bound structures containing neurotransmitters.
This binding triggers the fusion of the synaptic vesicles with the presynaptic membrane.
4. Neurotransmitter Release:
As the vesicles fuse, the neurotransmitters are released into the synaptic cleft, the space between the presynaptic and postsynaptic neurons.
5. Diffusion and Binding:
The released neurotransmitters diffuse across the synaptic cleft and bind to receptors on the postsynaptic neuron.
6. Termination of Neurotransmitter Action:
Neurotransmitters are eventually removed from the synaptic cleft by reuptake into the presynaptic neuron, enzymatic breakdown, or diffusion away from the receptors.
Resting Membrane Potential: In a resting neuron, the inside of the cell is more negative than the outside, establishing a resting membrane potential (around -70 mV).
Threshold: A stimulus, often in the form of chemical signals from other neurons (neurotransmitters), causes the membrane to depolarize (become less negative). If this depolarization reaches a critical "threshold" level (e.g., -55 mV), it triggers an action potential.
Depolarization: At threshold, voltage-gated sodium channels open rapidly, allowing a large influx of positively charged sodium ions into the cell. This makes the inside of the neuron rapidly more positive.
Repolarization: Sodium channels then inactivate, and voltage-gated potassium channels open, allowing positively charged potassium ions to flow out of the cell. This efflux of potassium ions causes the membrane potential to become more negative again, moving it back towards the resting potential.
Hyperpolarization: The potassium channels may remain open a bit longer than needed, causing the membrane potential to dip below the resting potential before they close.
Return to Rest: Finally, ion pumps (like the sodium-potassium pump) restore the resting membrane potential, preparing the neuron for another action potential.
You say all of this, along with whatever other processes are taking place, is a description of not only things like receiving sensory input and distinguishing wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum, and receptors on my tongue distinguishing molecules that have made contact, but also seeing the color red, and tasting the sweetness of sugar. More than that, it's a description of my thoughts. — Patterner
I will say bluntly that no machine we invent will do what we do, which is to think.
— Joshs
Noted. How very well justified. Your quote is about LLMs which are mildly pimped out search engines. Compare that do devices which actually appear to think and to innovate. What do you call it if you refuse to apply the term 'think' to what it's doing?
The quote goes on to label the devices as tools. True now, but not true for long. I am arguably a tool since I spent years as a tool to make money for my employer. Am I just a model then? — noAxioms
I guess I didn't see much difference between a description and an explanation. My point was that no anything will arrive at the 'experience' part of it.The problem is, no third person explanation can arrive at first person experience. — hypericin
Not sure what you mean by that, but I can perhaps say that every natural process can in principle be simulated via an algorithmic device that has sufficient time and memory. (Speed/power is not one of the requirements). This assumes a form of physicalism, yes, and the statement would likely be false if that was not assumed.The confidence you have in the power of algorithms seems to arise from anunderlying assumption that every natural process is 'algorithmic'. — boundless
I don't think a classical simulation can be done of something not classical, such as a quantum computer. Heck, even grass has been shown to be utilizing quantum computation, so what does that do to my claim that grass can be simulated?I am not sure that they can ever be able to give us a completely accurate model/simulation of all processes.
You must have an incredibly different notion of 'choice' when there's some many trivial devices that make them every second. It's not hard at all.But for me my ... ability to choose ... [does] not seem to be easily explainable in terms of algorithms — boundless
Yes, that would qualify as magic. It's a guess, and a lucky one. Elements as distinct from compounds was still hundreds of years away, so 'atom' meant just 'tiny indivisible bit' and there were no known examples of one, even if some substances known at the time happened to be pure elements. BTW, 'atom' no longer implies 'tiny indivisible bit'. The word unfortunately stuck to a quanta of a specific element and not to whatever is currently considered to be an indivisible component of matter.For instance, if we were talking in the 14th century and you claimed that 'atoms' exist and 'somehow' interact with forces that we do not know to form the visible objects, would be this 'magic' (of course, you have to imagine yourself as having the scientific knowledge of the time)?
Probably not so. The algorithms developed by say alphaZero have defied explanation. Nobody knows how they work. That isn't an assertion that the operations are not the result of deterministic processes. All the same things can be said of humans.Am I wrong to say that, however, that the operations of these 'thinking machines' are completely explainable in terms of algorithms? — boundless
From observation, the answer to that question is yes or no depending on if it supports my personal conclusions on the matter. Hence assertions of there perhaps being something it is like to be the fly, but not something it is like to be an autonymous drone doing somewhat the same things and more.Is there something it's like to be a fly evading a swat? How do we know? How could we ever find out? Isn't the inability to answer those questions a "hard problem"? — RogueAI
Cool level of detail. I notice no influence from say chemicals in the blood stream. It sounds all very like logic gates. A similar breakdown of transistor operation could be made, which are sometimes more binary and less analog, but still either could be implemented via the components of the other. The chemical influences would be harder to mimic with transistors and would likely play a role only at higher levels.This is what Google AI says about the release of neurotransmitters: — Patterner
No, I cannot describe thoughts in terms of neurons any more than I can describe a network file server in terms of electrons tunneling through the base potential of transistors. It's about 12 levels of detail removed from where it should be. Your incredulity is showing.You say all of this, along with whatever other processes are taking place, is a description of not only things like receiving sensory input and distinguishing wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum, and receptors on my tongue distinguishing molecules that have made contact, but also seeing the color red, and tasting the sweetness of sugar. More than that, it's a description of my thoughts.
No so for devices that find their own models of thinking.No matter how apparently flexible its behavior , that flexibility will always be framed and and limited to the model of thinking that dates to the time that the product is released to the market. — Joshs
So similar to almost every creature. Name a multicelled creature they have a fossil of that exists today. I can't think of one. They're all obsolete. A rare fossil might have some living descendants today (I can think of no examples), but the descendant is a newer model, not the same species.As soon as it is released, it already is on the way to obsolescence
Ok, wrong word. You agreed they are the same thing. But they can't be described as the same thing.No, I cannot describe thoughts in terms of neurons any more than I can describe a network file server in terms of electrons tunneling through the base potential of transistors. It's about 12 levels of detail removed from where it should be. — noAxioms
I am trying to understand your position. Can you give me any detail, or direction? My incredulity is a given. But if you're right, I'd like to understand.Your incredulity is showing. — noAxioms
No matter how apparently flexible its behavior , that flexibility will always be framed and and limited to the model of thinking that dates to the time that the product is released to the market.
— Joshs
No so for devices that find their own models of thinking.
As soon as it is released, it already is on the way to obsolescence
So similar to almost every creature. Name a multicelled creature they have a fossil of that exists today. I can't think of one. They're all obsolete. A rare fossil might have some living descendants today (I can think of no examples), but the descendant is a newer model, not the same species. — noAxioms
In principal, you can build a brain that does all the things brains do from scratch if you had the technological capabilities. — Apustimelogist
The title of this topic is about the first/third person divide, which Chalmers asserts to be fundamental to said 'hard problem', but it isn't. The qualia is what's hard. — noAxioms
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