• hypericin
    1.9k


    This is no paradox. What is wrong for a deontologist is to choose to kill someone. In the 1 vs. 1 case, the agent isn't choosing to kill. He is forced to kill. He is only choosing to kill one person or another. This choice may carry no particular moral weight to the deontologist.

    What about simply being compelled to kill someone? As in, someone overpowers you, and physically forces you to press a button that results in a death. Is this a "paradox" to the deontologist?

    You seem to be arguing against a mentally crippled version of deontology.
  • Copernicus
    136
    He is forced to kill.hypericin

    The key point here is not the action itself, but the preference (even "choice" isn't the right word).

    What about simply being compelled to kill someone?hypericin

    That is a completely different scenario because we're trying to contrast again consequentialism here.
  • 83nt0n
    43
    1. If all available options violate rights, can morality demand a choice at all?
    2. Does the reframed problem prove that utilitarianism is the only viable framework when non-interference is impossible?
    3. Can an individualist ethic survive scenarios where all choices involve direct harm?
    4. Is the moral guilt of killing one equal to the moral guilt of killing three, or are outcomes morally significant regardless of principles?
    5. Does the reframed trolley problem show that philosophy must move beyond rigid doctrines and toward pluralistic ethics?
    Copernicus

    1. Why not? It seems plausible that some rights are more important than others.
    2. Prove is a very strong word to use in debates like this. But it does not even necessarily support utilitarianism in my opinion. Not all deontological moral theories are absolute in the sense that it is always wrong to violate a right. Sometimes, the consequences are just more important than rights (but not always). W.D. Ross' prima facie duties theory is an example of a more moderate deontology, which I happen to prefer.
    3. Yes, why not?
    4. If you mean guilt the emotion, I would probably feel more guilty killing three people than one. Except in cases like the organ harvesting case.
    5. I don't think the reframed trolley problem shows that philosophy MUST move beyond rigid doctrines (since utilitarianism is one of them, and this does not refute utilitarianism). However, I am in favor of moving toward pluralistic ethics.
  • Copernicus
    136
    Why not? It seems plausible that some rights are more important than others.83nt0n

    How so? If you bring it down to numbers then you're a utilitarianist.

    Sometimes, the consequences are just more important than rights83nt0n

    That's literally the core of utilitarianism.

    Yes, why not?83nt0n

    Then what is the solution?

    I would probably feel more guilty killing three people than one.83nt0n

    There you go. Numbers.

    I am in favor of moving toward pluralistic ethics.83nt0n

    I see. I also think situational (contextual) morality is the way to go, except it has the most basic philosophical/legal flaw (who concludes and judges the affairs as rightful of wrongful?), the same reason why we have codified laws above court's scope for contextual judgement.
  • 83nt0n
    43
    How so? If you bring it down to numbers then you're a utilitarianist.Copernicus

    It seems to me that the right to life is more important than the right to not be offended. This does not 'bring it down to numbers'.

    That's literally the core of utilitarianism.Copernicus

    I disagree. Utilitarianism involves the claim that consequences are the only morally relevant consideration. I am saying that consequences are important, sometimes the most important, but not the only important moral consideration.

    Then what is the solution?Copernicus

    If all choices involve direct harm and violate rights in the same way, then minimize the harm.

    There you go. Numbers.Copernicus

    Right. In this case, it is just numbers. But not all moral cases come down to numbers.

    I see. I also think situational (contextual) morality is the way to go, except it has the most basic philosophical/legal flaw (who concludes and judges the affairs as rightful of wrongful?), the same reason why we have codified laws above court's scope for contextual judgement.Copernicus

    Yeah unfortunately I don't really see a way around that. We can have laws that apply to most cases, but there's always gonna be some situation that the law has not considered yet, so it may have to be left to the discretion of a court.
  • Copernicus
    136
    It seems to me that the right to life is more important83nt0n

    Yes. Both party's.

    I am saying that consequences are important83nt0n

    Not to deontological individualists.
  • 83nt0n
    43
    Not to deontological individualists.Copernicus

    The kind of deontology I endorse is Ross' intuitionism, which acknowledges the importance of consequences. SEP page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/william-david-ross/
  • Copernicus
    136
    As an individualist, I'm stuck.
  • Copernicus
    136
    Just out of curiosity, what would you do in this situation:

    At 14:59:53 o'clock, a man, charged with serious crime and sentenced to immediate death-by-sniper-bullet by 15:00:00 o'clock, is on the rooftop holding a child's hand who is about to fall if not pulled up (the whole thing could take at least 20 seconds).

    Would you execute justice (legal, not your conscientious) or wait to save the falling child?
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