A correct context would be any context in which it does make sense, that is, any context in which it is actually used. Which is to say, the special or particular circumstances in which it is actually used. — Fooloso4
So that would be in the context of a language-game then? — Metaphysician Undercover
If, actual usage is what determines correctness, then any and all usage is correct — Metaphysician Undercover
I am assuming that when he says "this here" while pointing to the object in front of him he means the object in front of him is here. — Fooloso4
I am not assuming a specific meaning. — Fooloso4
That is not a criticism, it is a statement of fact. You were not making a claim about the object, that is, the map. You were not saying that the map is here. If you were pointing to the map in front of you and saying "this is here" then your example would be the same as Wittgenstein's, and would be just as senseless. — Fooloso4
I have no assumed meaning of the sentence. — Fooloso4
Again, following Wittgenstein, in the circumstances described it makes not sense to say "this is here". That is not because I assume the sentence has a particular meaning, but because in this situation it makes no sense. — Fooloso4
It is the same in that you are both pointing, but you are pointing to a location on a map and he is pointing to an object, say, the map. In your example 'this' means the location, in Wittgenstein's this means the object in from of him. — Fooloso4
I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, but consider this: if I were to ask in what circumstances he said "this is here" the answer would be, while pointing to an object in front of him. — Fooloso4
What distinction are you making between doesn't make sense and lacks sense? — Fooloso4
I don't think that you should make that assumption, but thanks for finally admitting that you are making it. You formerly said: "I don't know why you would assume that I have assumed any such thing." — Luke
I am not assuming a specific meaning.
— Fooloso4
But you just said that you were. Again. — Luke
Then why did you say that my example "replaces the one Wittgenstein rejects"? — Luke
... he should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence is actually used. There it does make sense.)
It is the same sentence and pointing, only with added context (i.e. special circumstances). — Luke
Why does it make no sense in Wittgenstein's example? — Luke
You formerly said: "It is not a matter of adding context to the example in order to make sense of it." — Luke
Right, the meaning of "this" (or "this is here") is different in each example, but the pointing is not different. — Luke
But thanks for once again including the pointing. You formerly said: "He is not asking us to consider circumstances in which one points while saying it." — Luke
It is frustrating when you act as though your position has remained unchanged all along. — Luke
In Wittgenstein's example, "This is here" does not yet have a sense. It's not that it doesn't make sense, but that its sense has yet to be determined. It is not meaningless; it could mean a number of things, but there is currently insufficient information to decide its meaning. — Luke
The thing I make no assumptions about is what he means when he says "this is here". — Fooloso4
andI am assuming that when he says "this here" while pointing to the object in front of him he means the object in front of him is here. — Fooloso4
If someone points to an object and says "this is here" I assume he means the object he is pointing to is here — Fooloso4
The specific meaning refers to what he means when he says "this is here". — Fooloso4
I don't think Wittgenstein intends for us to question what he is pointing to or that what he is saying refers to what he is pointing to. Isn't that the way pointing works? — Fooloso4
You are not pointing to the object, the map, but to something on the map. — Fooloso4
Your example is one in which you point. Not all examples of where it makes sense to say "this is here" involve pointing. Here are a few: — Fooloso4
I take the example as given. There is no reason to think that there is information that is being withheld. — Fooloso4
I do not think there is any value in continuing this. Perhaps as we move forward things will become clearer. — Fooloso4
The context in which it is actually used, as opposed to some metaphysical claim. — Fooloso4
Just because someone says something that does not mean that is how the word or statement is actually used. — Fooloso4
But making a metaphysical claim is a context of actual use, just like any other special circumstance of use. You can't say that making a metaphysical claim is not an instance of actual use, that would be untrue. — Metaphysician Undercover
... one must always ask oneself: is the word ever actually used in this way in the language in which it is at home?
What we do is to bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use. (116)
... he should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence is actually used. There it does make sense.)
Yes it is. When someone says something, that is exactly how the statement is used. An instance of someone saying something is a particular instance of actual use, in particular circumstances. What else could special circumstances of actual use ever mean? — Metaphysician Undercover
Each instance of use is particular to the special circumstances of that instance of use. — Metaphysician Undercover
So that instance of someone saying something is exactly how the word or statement is actually used. — Metaphysician Undercover
... is the word ever actually used in this way in the language in which it is at home?
?What we do is to bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.
... he should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence is actually used. There it does make sense.)
He contrasts metaphysical use and everyday use. When he says in 117: — Fooloso4
he is not referring to any use but everyday use. It is everyday use that he means by actual use. It is only the philosopher who would point to something in front of him and say "This is here". That is not actual use, that is, everyday use. In everyday use it makes sense, its metaphysical use does not. — Fooloso4
The special circumstances are particular circumstances. Particular circumstances are not just any circumstances. — Fooloso4
If the answer to the question at 116:
... is the word ever actually used in this way in the language in which it is at home?
is yes, then what does he mean when he goes on to say:
What we do is to bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.
?
And what does he mean when at 117 he says:
... he should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence is actually used. There it does make sense.)
if the metaphysical use is actual use? If the use in the example is actual use then why would he say that this person should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence is actually used? — Fooloso4
To anticipate a bit, this is why Witty will say, a little later down, the these investigations thus "leaves everything as it is" (§124); - in terms I used earlier, the Investigations are subtractive, not additive. — StreetlightX
You can't subtract and leave everything the way it is, — Metaphysician Undercover
This is a great paper that deals with Cavell's reading of Wittgenstein — StreetlightX
In fact, when interpreting the PI, as is done in this thread, and in my thread on OC, we are making the same mistake. We are looking for that precise exegesis, which leads to a discovery of Wittgenstein's meaning. — Sam26
What your words say depends upon what they are doing—how they are at work—in a context of use". — StreetlightX
... if Cavell is right about who Wittgenstein is—Wittgenstein’s point.
People say: it’s not the word that counts, but its meaning, thinking of the meaning as a thing of the same kind as the word, even though different from the word. Here the word, there the meaning. The money, and the cow one can buy with it. (On the other hand, however: money, and what can be done with it.) — PI, 120
Yes, that is a sentence. An English sentence. And what is it supposed to be doing? — On Certainty 352
As if the meaning were an aura the word brings along with it and retains in every kind of use.
Why would you assume this, that we are looking for a precise meaning? Have you not attended philosophy seminars? The goal is to discuss the variety of interpretations, in an attempt to understand the various perspectives of understanding, brought to the table by the different backgrounds of the different participants. Sometimes we may be influenced to alter our understanding based on the perspective of another. — Metaphysician Undercover
Sometimes it's about the right balance between what he's saying here or there and the overarching picture of his method of linguistic analysis. — Sam26
There is really no such thing as "what Wittgenstein is saying". But if we were to look for "what he is saying", wouldn't that just be the theory he puts forward, "his method of linguistic analysis"? — Metaphysician Undercover
Finally, someone else said it. It's really a great saying IMO. Somewhere up there with a rising tide lifts all boats, and there's no free lunch. And maybe even topping, you can't have a cake and eat it too. — Wallows
I just ate my cake. — Sam26
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