I would like to ask, therefore, what other philosophies incorporate the concept of human suffering, as originating from desire? — Wallows
I've long subscribed to the notion that the source of human suffering is desire. — Wallows
I tend to think the source of suffering is boredom.
As a species that evolved to solve complex problems, living a life without problems leads to boredom. Having a life with no problems leads to the Hobson's choice of one activity that doesn't involve solving problems, or another activity that also doesn't involve solving problems....there is another choice, and that is to cause problems...and then there will be something to do that engages the minds we have ended up with. — wax
I lack the compassion to care for other people, even myself included. — Wallows
I do think it is possible to attain peace; like an old soldier who has lived a varied life; he has fought in wars, and survived; got back and lived an ordinary life of work etc; he has grown and matured a philosophy of life...but, there has had to be struggle in order to grow as a person, and although he might have found peace, there will be more people who are born who if they are lucky, they can grow as well, which may also mean they have to spend years of struggle. — wax
With this continual process, some people will 'make it' and some won't...and at the root of it, is boredom.
My underlying belief is that God, in all his mysterious eternal existence, always risks being bored himself....it is inescapable if he is an intelligent being. — wax
That's one of the reasons I'm an antinatalist though. Why put someone through the struggle (even for some sort of enlightenment) if they didn't have to go through it in the first place. — schopenhauer1
What makes you think it is not necessary to go through? I mean, fundamentally, the sort of satisfaction and enjoyment you get from enduring through a struggle is made what it is by the suffering. If you were given a nobel prize for completely nothing, you would be missing out on something that Einstein wouldt've - the satisfaction becomes not just enhanced but partly made up of feelings of self-validation [i.e. that you really were able to do it] self-satisfaction and accomplishment. And these feelings don't simply just get forgotten, they're embedded in the entire experience which is impressed in memory and accessible in mind.That's one of the reasons I'm an antinatalist though. Why put someone through the struggle (even for some sort of enlightenment) if they didn't have to go through it in the first place.
but in that argument, is there a 'someone', before they appear to have come into this world? — wax
But people are brought into this world quite often with no sort of planning...ie unplanned pregnancy, so there seems like there will be struggle just as an outcome of the way people behave. — wax
Secondly I really am struggling to understand the antinatalist premise. An unborn baby does not feel anything. It will never will know what it feels like to not have to go through pain. Secondly, not every individual evaluates suffering and non-suffering like you.. it's not some objective hedonic calculus, every individual makes a determination of the worthiness of living on their own. For some [if not all, barring antinatalists, the severely depressed and the oppressed] it is even un-quantifiably valuable to live even in spite of suffering. So the underlying argument for antinatalism seems just based on an impossible speculation. — aporiap
As for suicide, why do some people seem to think that it leads to peace?
It may for some, but I do think there is always the danger that they just end up taking their struggle and suffering into a post life situation. — wax
As to God, I think that he is in a situation where there is no-one higher in terms of the reality of consciousness, and thinking, to refer to.
We can't really know what that is like, but maybe we could suggest the idea that his reality emerges from his own thinking and behaviour.....what he thinks then becomes part of his reality and his own reference frame of reality.
He can't for example think, 'what would it be like to think A,' without automatically thinking of A in some ways...and in this way his reality evolves....so I bring back my argument, that I made in another thread in an OP, that God has his own needs. — wax
I would guess that one of those needs is to try an attain peace, and not having any problems to work on leads away from peace and into boredom....in a state of boredom he is still capable of thoughts and actions, but what is he going to think? So his desire for peace is not being met because he as nothing to think about...some of all that might be a bit circular, but I think most of us have experienced boredom.
One way that boredom can be alleviated might be to read a book, or listen to some music, watch TV, but this is God we are talking about; in a way, he has watched all the movies, read all the books, and is fed up with the same old music....and in that context, he still goes on thinking, and any thoughts he has form the framework of his future reality............ — wax
What makes you think it is not necessary to go through? I mean, fundamentally, the sort of satisfaction and enjoyment you get from enduring through a struggle is made what it is by the suffering. If you were given a nobel prize for completely nothing, you would be missing out on something that Einstein wouldt've - the satisfaction becomes not just enhanced but partly made up of feelings of self-validation [i.e. that you really were able to do it] self-satisfaction and accomplishment. And these feelings don't simply just get forgotten, they're embedded in the entire experience which is impressed in memory and accessible in mind. — aporiap
Secondly I really am struggling to understand the antinatalist premise. An unborn baby does not feel anything. It will never will know what it feels like to not have to go through pain. — aporiap
Secondly, not every individual evaluates suffering and non-suffering like you.. it's not some objective hedonic calculus, every individual makes a determination of the worthiness of living on their own. For some [if not all, barring antinatalists, the severely depressed and the oppressed] it is even un-quantifiably valuable to live even in spite of suffering. So the underlying argument for antinatalism seems just based on an impossible speculation. — aporiap
And I think you are also completely discounting the fact that pleasure and value are separable concepts. Something doesn't need to be pleasurable to be a valuable or meaningful experience. I mean I find my entire college experience to have been incredibly formative and meaningful.. sure I would change certain things but I would never not go through the school because it sucked [and I did suffer] to study.. I actually, really, would chose the opportunity to go through it again because it made me. — aporiap
That kind of rebuttal doesn't phase the argument, and I usually cringe a little when someone uses it. — schopenhauer1
Why are we anthropomorphosizing some creator/sustainer/destroyer god-entity anyways? Why is this entity even in the equation. But again, your idea there is very much Mainlander.. If that's what you think, then his conclusion is the best answer you got.. He is so bored, he is waiting or the universe to kill itself in a final heat death. — schopenhauer1
Well I think you mean uselessly or needlessly suffer here. I do not think people would agree with the bold if that suffering resulted in a net positive. If you restrict it to needless suffering then you would not get to an antinatalist position, unless you're in a situation where you can guarantee your child will uselessly suffer [you're pregnant in a concentration camp with no foreseeable chance to escape].The main point is that in the procreational decision, there is an asymmetry as to the absence of an actual person in regards to an absence of suffering and pleasure. It is always good that someone did not suffer, even if there is no actual person to be around to know this or enjoy the not suffering. It is not bad (or good) if someone does not experience pleasure, unless there was an actual person who was around to be deprived.
The way you're framing it makes it sound wrong. Nobody gives birth to force someone to experience adversity, this is different from the [inevitable] fact that they will face adversity. And, having the knowledge that your child will face adversity should be placed on equal value-ground as having the knowledge that your child, in existing, will experience pleasure. Else there's a double-standard.Also, just in general, forcing someone else into existence to experience some form of adversity to get stronger is still wrong. It's like forcing someone into an obstacle course they did not ask for, and can never leave without killing themselves. Well, I guess it's okay to stay and try and do the best, but it was not necessarily good to give that obstacle course in the first place. No one needs to do anything prior to birth, being that, as you pointed out, there is no actual person before birth who needed to go through life in the first place, good, bad, or ugly. By not having the person, it is no harm, no foul.
Well I think you mean uselessly or needlessly suffer here. I do not think people would agree with the bold if that suffering resulted in a net positive. If you restrict it to needless suffering then you would not get to an antinatalist position, unless you're in a situation where you can guarantee your child will uselessly suffer [you're pregnant in a concentration camp with no foreseeable chance to escape]. — aporiap
The way you're framing it makes it sound wrong. Nobody gives birth to force someone to experience adversity, this is different from the [inevitable] fact that they will face adversity. And, having the knowledge that your child will face adversity should be placed on equal value-ground as having the knowledge that your child, in existing, will experience pleasure. Else there's a double-standard. — aporiap
We don't usually feel pangs of compassionate sadness for the aliens not born to experience pleasure in a far away barren planet. — schopenhauer1
I don't know; it is often an argument in meat-eating vs. veggism debates as in..'those sheep wouldn't have existed if they weren't brought into the world to be turned into meat.' — wax
Do you think those people are literally saying that they existed prior to being "brought into the world to be turned into meat"? I don't think that would make sense if they're saying "They wouldn't have existed if not for . . ." — Terrapin Station
no I think existing before conception isn't part of their argument. — wax
God created human beings to praise, reverence, and serve God, — Rank Amateur
This is going way off-topic, but why would something create something else to praise, revere and serve it?
Well, I can see the "serve" part if we're talking about something like machines or robots and a creator who could use/would like some help getting things done, but that's the only angle from which I'd say that doesn't sound wonky. — Terrapin Station
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