As I mentioned, or hinted at, in my first post in this thread, I don't understand why we wouldn't focus on pain when we talk about suffering rather than focusing on desire. I can't really make sense out of saying that not having a desire met is sufficient for suffering when we also use the term "suffering" for, say, someone who has just been in a serious car accident and who now has a sharp piece of metal going through their trapped leg--especially where it's supposedly not a different sense of the term. — Terrapin Station
I would propose that the disordered desires above are causing great suffering - to the women, to the people entrapping/enslaving the women and to all the Robert Krafts that pay the woman. — Rank Amateur
Because most people think it's ridiculous to even talk about "persons who don't exist" as if they do. — Terrapin Station
But none of this makes desires sufficient for suffering. — Terrapin Station
Well, that's the point in regards to the absence of pleasure for a possible future person. — schopenhauer1
Am I correct that what you are saying here is there is no link between the desire to pay the coerced and trapped woman and the desire of money to enslave them - and the suffering of the people involved ?? — Rank Amateur
I'd say the desires do not cause that specific suffering. What would cause it is someone falsely imprisoning someone else or criminally threatening them. Whatever reason they decide to do those things if they do is another issue. They could make a different decision. — Terrapin Station
Re that decision, by the way, the issue would be easily dissolved if we would simply legalize prostitution. — Terrapin Station
But if you take the general case of a desire being based on something which isn't disorders, it still might lead to a disordered attempt to try and fulfil it... — wax
It seems you are saying the hammer drives the nail and ignoring the carpenter swinging the hammer. — Rank Amateur
not sure there is very good evidence to support this. Legalized gambling hasn't prevented folks gambling away the mortgage, legalized alcohol hasn't prevented alcoholism, etc etc — Rank Amateur
The carpenter has to apply physical force to the hammer, though. — Terrapin Station
I don't want to get rid of prostitution. I want to get rid of the absurdity of it being illegal. — Terrapin Station
I don't think anyone is lamenting the absence of pleasure for non-existent people. — Terrapin Station
ome people are rather upset at not having kids, not being able to have kids, etc. If they'd not be allowed to have kids they'd be upset at that, too. (And people are also upset at being penalized by laws that put them at a disadvantage if they have more kids.) — Terrapin Station
That's the point he was trying to make. — schopenhauer1
Ok, a lot of people are unhappy about things that they may want to do to other people that they maybe shouldn't do. — schopenhauer1
Re defining suffering with respect to ordered/disordered desires and then making the part of the ordered/disordered desire distinction a reference to suffering, that's pretty shallowly circular. — Terrapin Station
From that point, you can make a decision to drive the nail or not. — Terrapin Station
think this point from above addresses this point.
" As far as " they could make a different decision" that again, for me comes down to if the desire is ordered or not, there is no good option, just less bad ones, to fulfill a disordered desire, except to eliminate or control the desire itself. " — Rank Amateur
So we need to understand that distinction to understand what suffering is. — Terrapin Station
Okay, so how do we determine whether a desire "increases love" or not? — Terrapin Station
In making the point he was making, at least according to you, he talked about people not feeling sad for nonexistent people, as if that was significant. It's not. Because people don't think anything about nonexistent people. — Terrapin Station
That is significant if people argue that we are "depriving" something of pleasure. — schopenhauer1
However, that harm is absent IS a good thing, even if there is no actual person to enjoy the not being harmed. — schopenhauer1
I don't think we can. Do you think you can lie to yourself and not know it? — Rank Amateur
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