I do have some of my own issues with the test though. surely being raped by a parent and suffering through a divorce 17 should not equally be a 'one'. Admittedly tangential to the op's point tho. — csalisbury

They could just ask one question, 'how happy was your childhood 0 - 10.' These questions turn out to be more predictive. But they are only trying to measure one thing, andthewse are the questions that succeed in dividing people the best statistically. Whether they are consistent or even meaningful is secondary. They might have found it statistically significant to ask if you liked squishing worms as a child. It's like when the doctor asks where it hurts, it is meaningful to him whether you point with a finger, a fist or a flat hand in terms of how localised. Litmus paper, not a ph meter.

In a bit, I want to have a look at possible therapies in the light of the general importance of childhood experience, that seems incontrovertible in all these varied problems, both mental and physical. I think it's more interesting than worrying about the questionnaire.

I think the data and inference don't amount to much. Possibly the fallacy of oversimplified cause. I can think of one of the worst ''adverse childhood experience'': wars and what about the holocaust?

How many holocaust members turned out as predicted by the study?

I think the difference between the people in the gutter and the ones who become successful is interesting. Surely chance has something to do with it, but what else? The severity of the abuse might. For instance, maybe a 7 on the scale has a better chance at success than a 9. — TogetherTurtle

Alice Miller was particularly interested in celebrities, and she suggested that they are driven by the need for attention, and can never get enough to reassure themselves that they are loved. Gabor Mate talks about addiction, not only to drugs, but to money, status, power, and incidentally, they are interested in much more subtle forms of abuse than are caught by the questionnaire. But let me put it this way, being abused by Jimmy Savile s not 'sweet'.

I can think of one of the worst ''adverse childhood experience'': wars and what about the holocaust?

How many holocaust members turned out as predicted by the study? — TheMadFool

Whether we like it or not, the effect of trauma simply doesn't work like that. The increase in cortisol resulting from early abandonment is greater in most mammals than that released even under fear of death, or food/water stress. Psychology does not adhere to what we think people have a 'right' to be disturbed by. That's exactly what studies like these are about, tracking down factors which actually do cause significant health and welfare risk later in life, not ones we just think ought to.

I gave a lot of references: this from one on the trauma model.

Arieti stated in Interpretation of Schizophrenia that a trauma is more significant when committed by people to whom young human beings are emotionally bonded, and abuse is often interwoven with other forms of neglect and confusing behaviours from care-givers:

“ First of all we have to repeat here what we already mentioned..., that conditions of obvious external danger, as in the case of wars, disasters, or other adversities that affect the collectivity, do not produce the type of anxiety that hurts the inner self and do not themselves favor schizophrenia. Even extreme poverty, physical illness, or personal tragedies do not necessarily lead to schizophrenia unless they have psychological ramifications that hurt the sense of self. Even homes broken by death, divorce or desertion may be less destructive than homes where both parents are alive, live together, and always undermine the child's conception of himself.[18] ”

The Trauma model is inference from the data. If you want to question the data, you're going to have to do the work yourself, but if you want to question the model, you need another explanation of the data. And to dismiss the data without due cause is something I am happy to dismiss myself.

I was just pointing out a counterexample to what was being inferred.

Another thing is I remember @unenlightened contradicting such inferences in Psychiatry's Incurable Hubris

All I'm saying is there are other factors to consider e.g. reason/rationality/knowledge/wisdom. It's not just adverse childhood experiences but also the concomitant lack of intellectual development for example.

We know that war experiences can be psychologically traumatic to adults. It used to be called 'shell-shock', and these days 'PTSD'. Not everyone, but significant numbers suffer. And it is undoubtedly true for children when the war comes to them - let alone when they go to war as child soldiers. We know, for example, that one who has been deployed where there are snipers, can find themselves years afterwards, leaping involuntarily for cover when a curtain across the road twitches. We know there are cases of hysterical blindness or paralysis.

The childhood Trauma model suggests that there are two particular circumstances that further influence the significance for children of adverse circumstances. The first is that the relatively unformed state and thus extra plasticity of the child brain allows a deeper and stronger effect. The second is that the necessary dependence of the child and the requirement to form bonds of affection with carers makes adverse experiences of or from those carers set up a contradiction in the psyche. Again, it is known in adults as Stockholm syndrome, but is assumed to be more strong in children and is sometimes exploited by abusers through 'grooming.'

"The problem faced by many patients is that they did not grow up in a reasonably healthy, normal family. They grew up in an inconsistent, abusive and traumatic family. The very people to whom the child had to attach for survival were also abuse perpetrators and hurt him or her badly.... The basic conflict, the deepest pain, and the deepest source of symptoms, is the fact that mom and dad's behavior hurts, did not fit together, and did not make sense." — Colin Ross

I'd like if possible to move on to a consideration of possible therapies, and I am just exploring myself at this point, but reference to Judith Herman on wiki led me to this:
http://trauma-recovery.ca/recovery/phases-of-trauma-recovery/

And when I've had a look, I might post something about this 3 stage conception of recovery, and how well it meshes with other ideas that are around.

Edit. It's decidedly gooey, if not flakey, and some of you will have to hold your noses a bit at the 'spiritual' talk. It's bit too alternative even for my jaded palate. Nevertheless, there is something of an overview of some more scientific thinking, and plenty of well meant and probably harmless at worst advice. Take what you need and leave the rest. I'm looking for something a bit more ... rigorous.

https://whatnow727.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/herman_trauma-and-recovery.pdf

Here's her actual book instead.

The first principle of recovery is the empowerment of the survivor. She must be the author and arbiter of her own recovery. Others may offer advice, support, assistance, affection, and care, but not cure. Many benevolent and well-intentioned attempts to
assist the survivor founder because this fundamental principle of empowerment is not
observed. No intervention that takes power away from the survivor can possibly foster
her recovery, no matter how much it appears to be in her immediate best interest. In the
words of an incest survivor, “Good therapists were those who really validated my
experience and helped me to control my behavior rather than trying to control me.” — Judeth Herman

I really commend this book, although I have only skimmed it as yet. There are resonances with other discussions here on political correctness as well as psychobabble threads you may wot of.

To study psychological trauma is to come face to face both with human vulnerability in the natural world and with the capacity for evil in human nature. To study psychological trauma means bearing witness to horrible events. When the events are natural disasters or “acts of God,” those who bear witness sympathize readily with the victim. But when the traumatic events are of human design, those who bear witness are caught in the conflict between victim and perpetrator. It is morally impossible to remain neutral in this conflict. The bystander is forced to take sides.
It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil.

Theme tune for this thread is a nice uplifting one - 'Let me your enemy, but overall let me be your friend...'

Alice Miller was particularly interested in celebrities, and she suggested that they are driven by the need for attention, and can never get enough to reassure themselves that they are loved. Gabor Mate talks about addiction, not only to drugs, but to money, status, power, and incidentally, they are interested in much more subtle forms of abuse than are caught by the questionnaire. But let me put it this way, being abused by Jimmy Savile s not 'sweet'. — unenlightened

I honestly question if anyone ever thinks they are loved. I can speak for myself and tell you that I'm not entirely sure, but my interactions with most people imply that they are insecure in some way. It's almost as if part of our psyche is being incomplete, and if we feel content, our minds will automatically look for some other hole to fill.

I think that at the end of the day, it is ultimately our fault for not being happy, but it is also necessary for us to be unhappy if we wish to continue to change and live. If you are happy living in a trash compactor, eventually the walls will cave in on you.

I honestly question if anyone ever thinks they are loved. — TogetherTurtle

That's a very sad confession; I'm very sorry for you. Unfortunately, such insecurity has a tendency to become self-fulfilling, because the only way to test someone's love is to be unpleasant to them, and eventually, because no one's love is infinite, you will reach their limit, and prove yourself right again.

That's a very sad confession; I'm very sorry for you. Unfortunately, such insecurity has a tendency to become self-fulfilling, because the only way to test someone's love is to be unpleasant to them, and eventually, because no one's love is infinite, you will reach their limit, and prove yourself right again. — unenlightened

Ah, the self-fulfilling prophecy. I've been told by more than a few that is my greatest weakness. Maybe I'll overcome it someday.

This cannot be a therapy session, but I'll just point out that 'establishing safety' is the first requirement for recovery from trauma, as set out by Judith Herman in the book linked above (Have a look, it's not too hard to read). So it is important if you are to make any changes, to ask yourself seriously what you need, to feel, well not total security, but secure enough to take the next step in a relationship, whether therapeutic, romantic, or just friendly.

This cannot be a therapy session, but I'll just point out that 'establishing safety' is the first requirement for recovery from trauma, as set out by Judith Herman in the book linked above (Have a look, it's not too hard to read). So it is important if you are to make any changes, to ask yourself seriously what you need, to feel, well not total security, but secure enough to take the next step in a relationship, whether therapeutic, romantic, or just friendly. — unenlightened

I'll try and take the advice, thank you.

12 times more likely to commit suicide as a result of childhood trauma and yet this is apparently acceptable treatment in modern society. It's a fucking disgrace — Isaac

Yes, it is. I worked with students in isolation rooms before, and it was a horrible situation. We couldn't mainstream them, because they posed a danger to others (think, attacking students with scissors when told to please take a seat), but the state kept saying that their cases weren't severe enough to be placed in treatmemt facilities. Additonally, the same parents who mess up their kids get a huge say in whether a kid gets treatmemt or not--usually not.

I honestly question if anyone ever thinks they are loved. — TogetherTurtle

Now, this is the proper response, although prematurely reached for some children. Perhaps, some Stoic or Cynical philosopher might nod their head in approval.

And, that's kind of the issue with love. It's often equated with approval. I mean, my elementary teacher didn't have to love me to show signs of approval. Kids don't get this and are rather indoctrinated that love is a supreme good, and then connect the dots that someone really cares about me or approves of my behavior when they are loved. Kind of a self-justifying circle.

Care is sufficient in such cases....

Now, this is the proper response, although prematurely reached for some children. — Wallows

Yeah, tell me about it.

And, that's kind of the issue with love. It's often equated with approval. I mean, my elementary teacher didn't have to love me to show signs of approval. — Wallows

Perhaps approval from the various teachers I had growing up felt nice, but love from them would have felt better. I think love is just stronger approval.

Yeah, tell me about it. — TogetherTurtle

Tell me more.

Perhaps approval from the various teachers I had growing up felt nice, but love from them would have felt better. I think love is just stronger approval. — TogetherTurtle

There's only so much of that to go around. I feel sorry for the poor task (double duty) of educating and raising children in overpacked, sugar high, hyperactive kids that teachers have to deal with.

And we pay them shit salaries too.

There's only so much of that to go around. I feel sorry for the poor task (double duty) of educating and raising children in overpacked, sugar high, hyperactive kids that teachers have to deal with.

And we pay them shit salaries too. — Wallows

It is a shame how much they have to do. The salaries especially. Most of the teachers I have had deserved a lot more for just what I put them through, let alone what younger kids probably did and still do. My college algebra teacher senior year was in a bad mood at least once a week from the algebra 1A kids that had just left. I'm pretty sure most of those kids turned in their finals blank.

I've been pondering over the issue of having kids. I'm 28 years old, never had a stable relationship; but, paradoxically I don't feel lonely. Anyway, there seems to be a real narcissistic urge to want to have children. Like, one's accomplishments aren't complete and filled with the impending fear of death. I don't think I'll ever have kids. Maybe adopted ones to reduce total net suffering for at least some children.

Everything that you pointed out from experience seems to imply the above to some degree.

*Puffs on a cigarette*

Do you want to have kids, why or why not?

Anyway, the real abuse was emotional neglect and the abusive tendencies of a male who did not know how to express his feelings in my view @TogetherTurtle. I hope you can fill in that void. I just wallow in my depression.

:lol: 9 :lol:

Hmmm...

I thought all that shit was normal.

Seriously though...

My score is a nine. The irony, I suppose, is that I know that I am loved and have always known it despite those people sometimes having a really odd way of showing/expressing it.

My score is a nine. — creativesoul

Holy...

Anyway, you seem like you're incredibly resilient and cope well in high-stress situations. :heart:

Comes with plenty of practice I suppose.

:rofl:

Comes with plenty of practice I suppose. — creativesoul

Do you want to have kids?

That all depends... what do you look like?

:blush:

Kidding.

No. My kids are grown. They have kids and lives of their own.

That all depends... what do you look like? — creativesoul

No. My kids are grown. They have kids and lives of their own. — creativesoul

Great to hear gramps. I always thought you were a youngsoul with all your proclivity for being creative.